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Manas Nerfed Hard With New Update


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@DrahkonI talked about the movement before, my last comment was only addressing the people that never wanted any nerfs and the ''old'' mana back.

Everyone in their right mind still uses the mana to get presents on ragna/abe because it is STILL faster than any other flying mount. 

The mana was a flying mount before this nerf, you were able to dash over half of Ragnarok in mere seconds, land and reg ANY amount of stamina in max 3 seconds when dismounted and just keep going endlessly. I really have no clue how that can seem balanced to you. 

The mana should have been struck by the flyer nerf like every other flyer. The last nerf turned the mana into a jumping dasher, which seems right to me and what it should have been from the very beginning since you can use it on Aberration.

It's still one of the fastest swimmers (which also regs stamina in water), the fastest land walker and reaches any point on the map faster than any other dino. (tested on Ragnarok with a 200% MS Mana after the nerf against a griffin) 

 

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I see there's a lot of active conversation over this change.  I'm monitoring and will relay all of this back to the team.  If needed, it can be adjusted further.

My proposal would be to, instead of nerfing them into the ground, to simply add better ways to counter them. In my opinion, which would actually make a lot of sense considering they are "ice jumpers",

R.I.P. My only issue with these official PVP balances is that they are always forced on unofficials. ?

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1 hour ago, Fukushu said:

@DrahkonI talked about the movement before, my last comment was only addressing the people that never wanted any nerfs and the ''old'' mana back.

Everyone in their right mind still uses the mana to get presents on ragna/abe because it is STILL faster than any other flying mount. 

The mana was a flying mount before this nerf, you were able to dash over half of Ragnarok in mere seconds, land and reg ANY amount of stamina in max 3 seconds when dismounted and just keep going endlessly. I really have no clue how that can seem balanced to you. 

The mana should have been struck by the flyer nerf like every other flyer. The last nerf turned the mana into a jumping dasher, which seems right to me and what it should have been from the very beginning since you can use it on Aberration.

It's still one of the fastest swimmers (which also regs stamina in water), the fastest land walker and reaches any point on the map faster than any other dino. (tested on Ragnarok with a 200% MS Mana after the nerf against a griffin) 

 

Funny how I've agreed with nearly all of that, and yet people keep pushing it. Some even bringing up the bug they introduced that gave them Massively OP dive damage that had to be immediately patched into it as if it's somehow another reason this nerf was a good thing.

The whole point I've been trying to make is that this change Didn't do the job, the Mana needs balancing, but this does not balance it. All it did was make it less fun and more annoying to use, it still does all the OP bits it did slightly differently.  It just ticked people who enjoy the mana off by making them less fun to ride and unable to get a few places on extinction.

The limit should be reverted and the Mana properly balanced. The dash shouldn't benefit from MS, it's land and water MS needs a bit of a nerf, which I'd be fine with if they fix some of the other issues with mana land movement. The dash needs further adjustment, but this isn't it, this didn't make it slower, it just changed the movement pattern.

Heck I'd even be fine with reduced jumps/strafes/dashes if it wasn't for how heavy handed they were with it. It's like the only tool they know how to use for balancing is a sledge hammer.  When they made the Stamina usage change it was annoying, but was I here over it? No. It's airborne ability needed limiting and at the time it did a fair job of it while still retaining the play of the creature, it just didn't complete the job - accounting for mutation stacking. On the topic of Managarmr on Aberration? I 100% agree they don't belong there any more than they do in the old boss arenas.

People claim the change needs to stay because the Mana is still too fast, I'd say that's exactly why this change is a failure - it negatively impacted play yet It did not have the required balance effect. Gee Wiz, the Mana is 20% too fast, let's nerf the fun by 30%, make it frustrating to use here, here and there, and reduce it's speed by 1.5%... There - balanced, pats on the back for everyone, and if anyone complains we'll just ignore them until they leave, we don't need them to buy the new DLC anyway.

Not directed at you really, but too many of the people seem to be all over this thread pushing to keep the change just because it's a Managarmr nerf, not to fix anything, not to make it balanced, not to improve the game. Just to hurt it in some way because someone used one to eat their favorite dodo or steal their Christmas present.

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On 12/29/2019 at 5:25 AM, Drahkon said:

Yet you don't see them balancing rexes based on maxed out bred boss lines that do insane amounts of damage with equally crazy hp.

Flat out, this honestly seems to have more to do with the new content coming than any attempt at balance, it's far from the first time a popular creature suddenly got slapped down shortly before new content came out.

They've always been rather bad at balance, and the movement change did basically nothing for balance. It just made a dino from a vertical heavy map go from quite good at it to almost completely incapable.

Power creep can be mitigated, they have control of the scaling stats to reduce it if they so choose. That's not what they decided to do.

To say that WC sucks at other tame balancing is true. But doesn't mean that as a rule of fact you do have to balance with the tames best state in mind. And yes I agree this nerf didn't address that as well as changing the scaling and quantity of mutations. 

These changes are good changes as in it puts the managarmr more in line with its peers in terms of mobility however, you are correct that the timing is interesting being now is the only time when they actually have a monetary incentive to get everyone off of the mana kick and on to whatever is coming in genesis

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29 minutes ago, johnm81 said:

To say that WC sucks at other tame balancing is true. But doesn't mean that as a rule of fact you do have to balance with the tames best state in mind. And yes I agree this nerf didn't address that as well as changing the scaling and quantity of mutations. 

These changes are good changes as in it puts the managarmr more in line with its peers in terms of mobility however, you are correct that the timing is interesting being now is the only time when they actually have a monetary incentive to get everyone off of the mana kick and on to whatever is coming in genesis

Thank you for not being completely close minded like so many have been, but I do disagree on a point here, mobility is the one feature of the mana that shouldn't be in line with it's peers, as mobility is it's main feature. When you balance a specialty it should suitably exceed any peer that does not share that specialty focus.  The biggest current problem is that it scales too well with mutations and ends up excelling too much in too many other areas as well, combined with poorly tuned changes to it's breath damage that result in an extremely broad damage range that allow it to go off the charts with some focus and abuse. 

Edit: Also, I was not saying "you do have to balance with the tames best state in mind", the statement was in dispute of someone stating it as reason behind the change. I fully expect the time and effort put into breeding to give an appropriate return, that such creatures be substantially better.

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4 hours ago, Drahkon said:

The whole point I've been trying to make is that this change Didn't do the job, the Mana needs balancing, but this does not balance it. All it did was make it less fun and more annoying to use, it still does all the OP bits it did slightly differently.  It just ticked people who enjoy the mana off by making them less fun to ride and unable to get a few places on extinction.

That is basically what the Flyer "Nerf" did, because it was focused on speed more than anything else.  In many cases (dare I say all cases), each individual flyer got -BETTER- at every task/role because of the lack of point investment in speed.  They were not "nerfed," they are now just "more boring to use."  Just like the Mana feels now, if you have Mana'd around since Extinction's launch.

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1 hour ago, TheDonn said:

That is basically what the Flyer "Nerf" did, because it was focused on speed more than anything else.  In many cases (dare I say all cases), each individual flyer got -BETTER- at every task/role because of the lack of point investment in speed.  They were not "nerfed," they are now just "more boring to use."  Just like the Mana feels now, if you have Mana'd around since Extinction's launch.

At least the flyer nerf completed most of it's task, it prevented a number of bugs and exploits that revolved around cranking speed. It could have been done another way but at least it got the job done without having a totally negative impact to game-play, there were pros and cons. I never protested that nerf once even if it was inconvenient. This one doesn't even accomplish anything positive.

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On 12/29/2019 at 11:21 AM, Thyme said:

I was specifically talking about just average tamed manas, not the super mutated ones on official. Most people are rocking primitive saddles as well due to the rarity.  A lightning wyvern by comparison starts with good damage, enough to kill basically every wild dino, so people just used their manas to travel, but now they're making them worse at that.

Well on the official ARKPOCALYPSE servers which wipe every 30 days, manas are lot more used than lightning wyvern.  A max level tamed Mana, and its bred 2nd gen descendants are still much faster than a lightning wyvern. And the range and damage on their beam is equal or better. Wyverns are pretty strong on Arkpocalypse due to fresh server reset every 30 days preventing them from being powercreeped by bred dinos, but manas still dominate pvp, due to being far easier to get while being almost as good if not better in most situations. 

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10 hours ago, Drahkon said:

At least the flyer nerf completed most of it's task, it prevented a number of bugs and exploits that revolved around cranking speed. It could have been done another way but at least it got the job done without having a totally negative impact to game-play, there were pros and cons. I never protested that nerf once even if it was inconvenient. This one doesn't even accomplish anything positive.

Fair enough.  The positive thing they were going for (in my opinion) was to do exactly the thing that I (or we) said:  Make it a less attractive catch-all travel mount.  Due to its nature it is still one of, if not the fastest creatures in game.

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44 minutes ago, TheDonn said:

Fair enough.  The positive thing they were going for (in my opinion) was to do exactly the thing that I (or we) said:  Make it a less attractive catch-all travel mount.  Due to its nature it is still one of, if not the fastest creatures in game.

Roll rats still fastest, no one ever remembers it :(

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3 hours ago, TheDonn said:

Is that true?  I would've never thought they'd be faster than a Mana.  I know they do move pretty fast but hmm, I don't know if I believe that.

I'd believe a source if it was a legitimate test and not a Cantex YouTube video!

https://youtu.be/gZfj-N00_KY

Figured I'd do a little showcase of the rat. You can see at the end it had 295% speed, which is the normal max speed for an imprinted roll rat.

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17 hours ago, Drahkon said:

Thank you for not being completely close minded like so many have been, but I do disagree on a point here, mobility is the one feature of the mana that shouldn't be in line with it's peers, as mobility is it's main feature.

And here is the problem with that. Believe it or not mobility affects all other attributes as well. In of itself with the current game design mobility is the essential and most powerful feature any player, dino, or other can have. Don't believe me? Look into how many pvpers run around with a massive amount of points in hp? Or melee? And now how about speed stat? Speed is far favored even after the point scaling nerf. Why is this? For the same reason mana being given an unchecked free pass on mobility is too much. 

Mobility affects how much damage you can do.

Mobility affects how much damage and enemy can do to you.

Mobility affects how easy you can respond to attacks.

Mobility affects how easy you can flee from an attack.

Superior mobility gives you the ability to have up time on your target and allows you to maximize your dps on it. Superior mobility allows you to avoid damage an enemy wants to do to you as you control range. Superior mobility allows you to deploy quickly to prevent enemies from getting favorable position. Superior mobility allows you to flee from an attack and puts the ball in your court if you want to re-engage on better conditions or end the fight. 

 

Superior mobility is key and thus is the essential reason why mana's are op.

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6 minutes ago, johnm81 said:

And here is the problem with that. Believe it or not mobility affects all other attributes as well. In of itself with the current game design mobility is the essential and most powerful feature any player, dino, or other can have. Don't believe me? Look into how many pvpers run around with a massive amount of points in hp? Or melee? And now how about speed stat? Speed is far favored even after the point scaling nerf. Why is this? For the same reason mana being given an unchecked free pass on mobility is too much. 

Mobility affects how much damage you can do.

Mobility affects how much damage and enemy can do to you.

Mobility affects how easy you can respond to attacks.

Mobility affects how easy you can flee from an attack.

Superior mobility gives you the ability to have up time on your target and allows you to maximize your dps on it. Superior mobility allows you to avoid damage an enemy wants to do to you as you control range. Superior mobility allows you to deploy quickly to prevent enemies from getting favorable position. Superior mobility allows you to flee from an attack and puts the ball in your court if you want to re-engage on better conditions or end the fight. 

 

Superior mobility is key and thus is the essential reason why mana's are op.

Yes, superior mobility is the preferred focus and improves it's ability to do the rest, but mobility alone is almost nothing. The Mana is the end game mount for the most current content, it being 'the best' in and of itself isn't the issue, it becomes an issue when there's not even a contest anymore. And again, the mana needing balancing isn't even the question, the question is if this change is a positive for the game. Does this change help balance the game? Not really, it does very little to limit the mana in the areas it ruins. A PVP mutated mana can still boost into someones base, cause havoc and losses, and boost back out with little risk. If you can find a blind spot in the defense you could even spend a little time doing some real damage. Does it Negatively impact the game? Yes, for many it severely impacts how much they enjoy using the mana, and I'm not even talking about pvp, but I'm sure many people enjoy mana pvp as well.

One of it's biggest issues is dash boosting too fast for turret tracking, and this doesn't slow it down one bit.

Another is it's damage output, being able to appear out of nowhere, do a massive burst of damage, and disappear again. This one is mostly a scaling issue. A tamed mana at most ranges is actually poor dps, but due to the severe damage falloff with range scaling they implemented, along with how well its overall damage scales with levels, means a high damage mana at ideal range does massive damage.  Combine that with excellent mobility faster than turret tracking, where turrets are virtually the only option for defending a base offline.

You mention the speed stat scaling nerf, another needed nerf. Also a mostly successful nerf, as you say, many pvpers still pack speed, it's the favored stat, but now it's a choice. You have to invest in it and lose out on other stats rather than just throw a modest number of points in there and be too fast to hit. Does it need another nerf? Maybe, I don't pvp enough to say. Was it an improvement to the game? Yes.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I made no statement indicating it should have a free pass on mobility, I even indicated a nerf on it was acceptable in another post. Perhaps my choice of words wasn't the best. I did say this nerf is not the change it needs to be balanced, and is not an improvement to the game overall.

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All i want is server ini settings to enjoy the game and its creatures how i like to. most others do to. while this nerf really doesnt fix pvp balance at all it does mostly ruin a very fun creature and creates an unpleasant and clunky feel to it. 

I really dont know why its so hard to make these things reversible for people and this sole issue of not proving ways to revert these changes is why i i am not picking up the DLCs. I love this game, have over 5500 hours and i have run/hosted servers for over 3 years and even bought copies,  DLCs and all for so many friends who in turn loved this game. it just saddens me that i really dont feel like supporting it anymore til the developers can finally give us options to revert these kinds of significant changes to creatures (as well as more customization to individual creature stats and settings like the levels post tame they gain etc and base stat adjusting). 

Its such an easy way to make most happy (sorry for those who cant do these things/only have official ) and should have been done with the original flier nerf (though i was semi ok with that after the extra rebalances post nerf). For whatever reason they have always refused to do this or even give a reason for not doing it. Alas it is most likely a mod will fix it but still my point stands.

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On 12/28/2019 at 11:06 AM, johnm81 said:

IMO you are right. And wrong.

Yes they nerfed it to make genesis creatures look better and to make more money off of that. I agree.

But I disagree that it wasn't needed. They have been tuning the mana down  for a while now and have stated on live streams that the creature was too good at too many things. I recall a live stream where the rag map designer and ced were opening teasing the engineer (who was sitting next to them) that made the managarmr  about how it is just too good of a creature.

Its only to good though because of stupid limitations placed on its competition, limitations that break the games logic too.  Wyverns need to be breedable.

 

On 12/25/2019 at 1:09 PM, johnm81 said:

Are you sure you do? 

What is the "tier" of managarmr. Nevermind that this definition is subjective thus you might look at WC and say they are nerfing too hard but only because the "tier" you think they are in might not be the one intended by them.

So lets answer the question. What tier of flyers do managarmr exist in? Is it Wyverns, Managarmr, and Quetz? Are there any others? Because if that is the tier the managarmr should definitely be nerfed by the very approach you claim WC isn't following. Wyverns breath weapon aiming is a skill and an art. Poison Wyvern breath weapon aim is broken and has never worked. Mana on the other hand breath weapon has a freaking cross hair and if in the front arc hits true to his aim. Mobility? Wyverns and Quetz fall to the mana prior to this nerf in this department as well. Mana's can attack and if need be disengage and come back to continue a fight without fear of being stopped. Manas can swim super fast in water. They regen stam in water. No other flyer in its "tier" can do this. 

Can a quetz or wyvern do anything better than a managarmr? A quetz has a saddle platform and so can be used to rush turret walls. A mana can do this as well with its dash AND can do it in AB! What about griffins? Do they belong in the mana group? Can griffins be bread and get armor from saddles so their stats can reach God level from mega breed lines? No even here manas are better.

Even if you look at it in this 'tier' of flyers the managarmr needed this nerf. 

 

PS for official pvp only

Lightning wyvern does more dmg (not counting bred) at longer range(regardless of dmg breeding) because manas only do good at point blank and stagger out of the attack when hit making nearly worthless and it costs way to much stamina.  Yes i agree stam regen in water is bs.  as is wyverns can go farther faster then manas by flight because of the manas 1 burst and insane regen time.  While u sit regening after 1 burst the wyvern passes u up.  So combat wyvern wins, traversal, wyvern wins.  The mana shud b better then a wyvern, at least slightly.  It cant scout well because it cant hover like anything else that flies can.  it cant grab like all other fliers.  For the mana, its tier is bred vs unbred.  U cant compare a bred dino to unbred.  the flaw is we cant breed wyverns.  224 mana vs 190 wyvern highly favors the wyvern.  Thing is manas need to breed to b worth anything.  Wyverns dont, and you earn your awesome manas spending a month breeding stam.  Anyone nuts enough to go through that bs deserves something special.  I think manas getting the ability to upgrade speed is wrong as well.  Its a flier and should be locked.  Technically the mana is consider above the wyvern in teir though.  it has an intended base lvl to ride it, wyverns dont.  Is a later game tame and the largest endgame specific dino assigning it the apex of extinction (not counting boss creatures).  Its an f'n tek dragon.  Its meant for dealing with extinctions crazy bs, like titans for instance.  Wc's mistake is trying to comform things to to any restrictions.  1 hand u have titans and crazy corrupt dinos, on the other you have unbreedable wyverns.  Best solution, tweak the mana a lil and bring the wyvern breeding.  Heck remove the restriction from the majority of dinos.  At this point in the game it makes lil sense we cant breed insects or wyverns but we got breedable gigas and titans roaming the arks.  as stated there will always b a best/preferred dino.  There will always b 1 terrorizing ppl.  Thats the nature of pvp with progression based content.  Its proper tho that it b the mana over anything from previous maps.  If theRes something from Gen that replaces the mana, then ok, thats how it should be.  Another flaw of this game is u can completely break canon, it would b better to be forced to go through the game stage by stage instead of rushing right into extinction.  That destroys the progression as well as the appreciation of any of the other content that lead to the new stuff which also destroys the deeper appreciation of the new stuff.  Im not saying adjustments wernt needed, just not like this.

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Nitrado, Managarmr issue

I really need someone to help me.. 

For some reasons, on my nitrado server, the Manas can't only do one jump and 1 dash forward. Nothing more 

I can jump, dash, slide towards (to do another dash) but then I can't dash again 

Also I can only jump 3 times in a row, then I stops from doing anything

I don't really know what's wrong with it

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You realize this just means new more OP breeding lines soon enough now that stam is nearly useless, right. No point having 'wasted' points in stam pushing you towards the level limit when you can crank your health, damage, and speed even higher instead. The heavy scaling stamina costs of the repeated dash were holding it back.

On 1/2/2020 at 11:16 AM, Helsel89d said:

I don't understand why people always complain about dino nerfs. It effects everyone so just adjust and move on. Plus manas are to OP and useful. I still always use one even with the changes. I just secretly complain the entire time. 

A excellent quote to illustrate my point. It didn't balance it for crap, it just ticked off people who enjoyed how fun they were to ride. Everyone is just used to this crap from WC and either gives up or leaves. It's a game, it supposed to be fun. Good job nerfing fun if that was your goal.

Whatever, WC. I'm done talking to a wall. Maybe I'll play, maybe I won't. I was planning on spending a good bit of time on the game for the holiday event, this crap irritated me so much every time I tried I don't think I even got 2 hours in since patch. Great place to leave customers you're trying to sell more content to.

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20 hours ago, Drahkon said:

You realize this just means new more OP breeding lines soon enough now that stam is nearly useless, right. No point having 'wasted' points in stam pushing you towards the level limit when you can crank your health, damage, and speed even higher instead. The heavy scaling stamina costs of the repeated dash were holding it back.


Yeah, this is likely going to be a problem. Balancing shouldn't be done be nerfing poop, but by providing a good counter alternative. Someone in this very thread posted the idea of making Manas very vulnerable to fire (even torches). This would make sense (they're an 'Ice Jumper' after all), balance it more than this this nerf does and on top of that, it would give players an incentive to use Flamethrowers & Fire Arrows (very underused currently) and even Torches in battle.

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