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1 hour ago, ciabattaroll said:

To be fair, there's no happy medium. You make an estimate (as Wildcard consistently makes use of saying ETA rather than deadline to hammer the point that it's a best guess scenario) and fail to make it, the community moans about delays. You make an estimate and actually achieve that estimate and people will complain on and on about the bugs they find, and say that it should have been in development longer. And if you were to just say "it'll be ready when it's ready" you get derided to the point of being a meme, like Valvetime or Blizzardtime.

Yes, they use ETAs. In this case they had left their ETA open to an entire month, and still couldn't hit that. Apparently they need to start using seasons for ETAs as they can't even hit one that gave them 31 days to work with.

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3 minutes ago, Olivar said:

It doesn't matter.
If WC announces something and has to postpone, people whine.
If WC doesn't announce and surprises people, people whine.

If you're working in the IT business, you know that promising an exact release date is near impossible.
Especially in the pressurised industry of ours called gaming.

And that is very understandable that is why they shouldnt give dates but they still do. They give exact dates,weeks,months and even years and miss them all! We understand millions of things can come up but when you give an exact date down to the day then we expect you have already finished it and just choose then to release it. There will alwaaays be someone to complain but there is defiantly ways better then what they are doing. Lets say 1200 people complain now, that number could be reduced to 100 but they havent changed.

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5 minutes ago, KingGalahad said:

Yes, they use ETAs. In this case they had left their ETA open to an entire month, and still couldn't hit that. Apparently they need to start using seasons for ETAs as they can't even hit one that gave them 31 days to work with.

They have tried exact hours for specific fixes and updates and they missed them. They tried exact days for events and updates and released and missed them. they tried exact weeks for fixes and releases and missed them. They tried exact months and seasons for dlc and releases and missed them. and they missed years when they said the game would be released june 2016. They have tried everything and missed everything 9/10 times. Bottom line is they need to give themself more time with there ETA's and release dates.

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Just now, Slark said:

And that is very understandable that is why they shouldnt give dates but they still do. They give exact dates,weeks,months and even years and miss them all! We understand millions of things can come up but when you give an exact date down to the day then we expect you have already finished it and just choose then to release it. There will alwaaays be someone to complain but there is defiantly ways better then what they are doing. Lets say 1200 people complain now, that number could be reduced to 100 but they havent changed.

To put it in the terms I tell my team when someone goes wrong post-deploy, pre-launch:  poop happens.
Find the error, fix it, communicate the impact and move on.

It really doesn't matter what Wildcard does, there's always going to be a faction whining about every little thing.

  • No announcements:  people whine about lack of communication
  • Announcements, with updates: People whine they cant stick to plans
  • Announcements too far ahead: People whine they can't plan

I've seen a thread on reddit where people whine because the patch notes are updated and removed an irrelevant entry cause it got fixed in a later patch and having both entries there was confusing.

It simply doesn't matter what WC does : People will whine

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1 hour ago, ciabattaroll said:

The thing is, literally anything can happen during QA that could cause a delay. If you think the released versions in updates are buggy then I guess it's fortunate that you are not one of the QA guys, as they find and experience more bugs than you do before content gets pushed out.

As for that justification about Valve, that's pretty flimsy. That's like saying Wildcard should get a pass on their delays because they sell 3d print dinos, shirts, and other merchandise. A game developer is still a game developer, regardless of how many other revenue streams they have, and as such should be held to a standard as a game developer.

I understand what QA team have to deal with. For your information I am QA tester of Primal Carnage Exctinction (currently everyone can test the game due to open beta patches) There were bugs we had no clue how to reproduce. Usually, when we reported crittical issue to devs it was up to them to do anything about it. Sometime Circle 5 decided to release the patch anyway and we, QA team, were forced to listen to people's complain that we're awful QA team and not do our job. Even though that was entirely devs' fault. Once we had Iess than 24 hours to test RC patch. I do not know what's situation of ARK QA Team, but It's safe to assume the situation I just discribed happens from time to time. Hmm... Once or twice the RC worked flawlessly, but after cooking process patch was corrupted.

Believe me, I'm not happy Valve stopped devloping games basically. I still want to get to know the end of Half Life franchise. I dream about Portal and Half Life crossover game. That would have been cool. However, we move into off-topic areas at this point.

Edited by Lewiatan
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1 minute ago, Olivar said:

To put it in the terms I tell my team when someone goes wrong post-deploy, pre-launch:  poop happens.
Find the error, fix it, communicate the impact and move on.

It really doesn't matter what Wildcard does, there's always going to be a faction whining about every little thing.

  • No announcements:  people whine about lack of communication
  • Announcements, with updates: People whine they cant stick to plans
  • Announcements too far ahead: People whine they can't plan

I've seen a thread on reddit where people whine because the patch notes are updated and removed an irrelevant entry cause it got fixed in a later patch and having both entries there was confusing.

It simply doesn't matter what WC does : People will whine

Like i said i completely agree with you theres absolutely no way to please everyone. But right now there methods are annoying the most people possible. There is other methods that would anger people much less that would significantly help alot of things but i cant force anything just speak my mind.

For example say it is currently Jan 2017. Wildcard tells use they are working on a new dlc and we should see it hit in april 2017.  They send out updates saying things are going good, they encountered some issues but things are still moving ahead on time. That continues for weeks. End of Feb rolls around and WC has finished there final product and they send it for final cert. Microsoft approves it. WC tells people they have finished early and are just finishing it up and it is good (they could flip the switch right now but dont) and ready to go but theyre may be small minor bugs like usual at first. They say they will release it in 10 days so everyone can prepare. Release rolls around Early march, way ahead of time, they communicated ad everyone was prepared. Very few people unhappy. And wildcard had plenty of time so there staff wasnt stressed or over worked. win win but im sure there will still be some complainers but very very few compared to how things have been.

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2 minutes ago, Olivar said:

To put it in the terms I tell my team when someone goes wrong post-deploy, pre-launch:  poop happens.
Find the error, fix it, communicate the impact and move on.

It really doesn't matter what Wildcard does, there's always going to be a faction whining about every little thing.

  • No announcements:  people whine about lack of communication
  • Announcements, with updates: People whine they cant stick to plans
  • Announcements too far ahead: People whine they can't plan

I've seen a thread on reddit where people whine because the patch notes are updated and removed an irrelevant entry cause it got fixed in a later patch and having both entries there was confusing.

It simply doesn't matter what WC does : People will whine

I worked for a company that focused on team building and teamwork. With seminars I went to and courses I took, communication was found to be the issue with most problems. That is where Wild Card is lacking. Their communication has only been getting worse too. Half these issues would be non-issues with prompt and effective communication.

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There would be issues, there's always going to be issues.
As Slark said : there's simply no pleasing everyone.

And I cannot agree that the communication from Wildcard is bad.
They are far more communicative then other companies I'm familiar with.
Is it perfect? Far from it, but it's a hell a lot better then most.

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14 minutes ago, Olivar said:

There would be issues, there's always going to be issues.
As Slark said : there's simply no pleasing everyone.

And I cannot agree that the communication from Wildcard is bad.
They are far more communicative then other companies I'm familiar with.
Is it perfect? Far from it, but it's a hell a lot better then most.

I can agree to that. Better then most, but they could always improve.

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32 minutes ago, KingGalahad said:

I worked for a company that focused on team building and teamwork. With seminars I went to and courses I took, communication was found to be the issue with most problems. That is where Wild Card is lacking. Their communication has only been getting worse too. Half these issues would be non-issues with prompt and effective communication.

This is the kind of exaggeration I am talking about. Wildcard's communication has gotten significantly better even compared to 6 months ago...let alone a year ago. Given, the communication is far from perfect, but dumping little zingers in there is counterproductive. Remove that underlined sentence and there is a legitimate complaint to be made, a complaint that Wildcard can use. Otherwise you run the risk of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Threads like these and many of the comments that comprise them are a perfect example of folks making a mountain out of a molehill when we're already surrounded by mountains. 
 

Edited by LouSpowells

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Just now, LouSpowells said:

This is the kind of exaggeration I am talking about. Wildcard's communication has gotten significantly better even compared to 6 months ago...let alone a year ago. Given, the communication is far from perfect, but dumping little zingers in there is counterproductive. Remove that underlined sentence and there is a legitimate complaint to be made, a complaint that Wildcard can use. Otherwise you run the risk of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

Their communication hasn't been getting better though. IT used to be that Jat would give updates on twitter in regards to issues. Now there is virtually no updates made until they finally come out to cancel things or delay them further. I stick by my words. They could fix a large degree of these issues with proper communication. That communication though is greatly lacking. When you have one Community Manager that insists upon posting all Ark related information through her personal twitter and then says if you don't like her personal opinions to not follow her, there are issues there. 

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3 minutes ago, KingGalahad said:

Their communication hasn't been getting better though. IT used to be that Jat would give updates on twitter in regards to issues. Now there is virtually no updates made until they finally come out to cancel things or delay them further. I stick by my words. They could fix a large degree of these issues with proper communication. That communication though is greatly lacking. When you have one Community Manager that insists upon posting all Ark related information through her personal twitter and then says if you don't like her personal opinions to not follow her, there are issues there. 

Again, this is the kind of exaggeration I am talking about. Wildcard's communication has gotten significantly better even compared to 6 months ago...let alone a year ago. Given, the communication is far from perfect, but dumping little zingers in there is counterproductive. Remove those underlined sentences and there is a legitimate complaint to be made, a complaint that Wildcard can use. Otherwise you run the risk of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Threads like these and many of the comments that comprise them are a perfect example of folks making a mountain out of a molehill when we're already surrounded by mountains. 

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A couple of thoughts to consider, hopefully this won't come across as argumentative.

48 minutes ago, Slark said:

and they missed years when they said the game would be released june 2016

Accurate statement, but also keep in mind that a huge portion of that delay was due to WC having the bad habit of listening to what the player base wants and doing their best to incorporate it, even if it meant pushing back their schedule.  That's not an attack on the player base when I say it, it actually is kind of a bad habit on WC's part.  The game has gone far beyond what it's original design spec was due to responding to customer requests, but in some ways it has cost them the support of the very people they were trying to satisfy.

51 minutes ago, Lewiatan said:

Hmm... Once or twice the RC worked flawlessly, but after cooking process patch was corrupted.

That certainly happens, we've seen it happen with ARK as well.  Thanks for pointing that out!  But I think that one of the main issues with release dates is the hyper competitive, hyper stress nature of the gaming industry.  It chews up people (and whole development teams) and spits them out at a frightening pace.  It is statistically one of the hardest industries to work in long term, and not one that I would recommend for most people.  The pressure to deliver perfectly and instantly, to attain a razor edge advantage over your competitors is incredible.  It leads to often huge errors being made, even by the largest and most experienced game developers.

Just a couple of things to keep in mind the next time someone goes off the deep end over something relatively minor.  I appreciate you guys discussing things more calmly than in some threads.  :D

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8 minutes ago, ranger1presents said:

That certainly happens, we've seen it happen with ARK as well.  Thanks for pointing that out!  But I think that one of the main issues with release dates is the hyper competitive, hyper stress nature of the gaming industry.  It chews up people (and whole development teams) and spits them out at a frightening pace.  It is statistically one of the hardest industries to work in long term, and not one that I would recommend for most people.  The pressure to deliver perfectly and instantly, to attain a razor edge advantage over your competitors is incredible.  It leads to often huge errors being made, even by the largest and most experienced game developers.

Just a couple of things to keep in mind the next time someone goes off the deep end over something relatively minor.  I appreciate you guys discussing things more calmly than in some threads.  :D

You have no idea how many times QA testers of PCE felt like to flip their tables when RC patch was perfect and then... public patch was FUBAR.

Even though I do enjoy discussion here, we crossed off-topic border long time ago in this thread and I'm not sure how long we can keep it up before Cassanova starts giving out warning points <.< >.> I only hope some complains that were posted here would finally reach WC ears and they would do something about it. We want them to act, not post empty promises of improved communication.

Edited by Lewiatan
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Look, my panties are not in a bunch over this. I'm not pissed. I have a full life and can wait.

THAT BEING SAID...

As a supporter of Wildcard and their product, my professional advice is that their PR team need to get together under this tried and true policy:

Under Promise, and Over Deliver.

Give no dates. Any ETAs should be quarterly, and include the words "we will attempt, but we may decide it needs to be pushed back"

Don't hype the release. 

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If only there was road map or list of known issues and a place that something like this could be publicly posted/shared. Issues or thing that have been acknowledged by WC internally (because they never acknowledge them publicly) and on that list the made simple status updates with no mention of dates.
 

 

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On 10/23/2017 at 7:46 AM, Toni said:

Just issued the refund on steam for the Season Pass.

You will get my money back when its finished...not a second earlier.

Announcing it with "Coming in Oct 2017" and then simply removing it without giving us a new date is an absolutely No-Go !

I do not have general problems with delays. Its finished when its finished. But the lack of communication is an ongoing problem of wildcard... I don't buy something which doesn't have a date.

And i simply do not care if they waste their time with TwitchCon and things like that instead of working on the game...

 

Would you buy a car if it is delivered "some time"? I don't think so....

There is so much wrong with your post that it blows my mind.

First of all, "October 2017" is not even a date....

Then you say delays are fine, and the lack of communication is what bothers you. The Jat specifically said what this delay was for. You don't buy something without a date, yet you did buy the season pass (and the game in early access i presume) in the first place.... nice logic buddy.

What he also said, was that the new eta/release date would he announced sometime after twitchcon, not IMMEDIATELY after twitchcon. Even if so, its only been a couple days, most of the team is probably not even setttled back into their office again.

You say you dont care that they go to twitchcon, but call it a waste of time.... It sure does looks like you care.... lol

These conventions are very important in the game dev industry. It gives the employees a chance to network with other companies, as well as interact face to face with fans who give a crap enough to do more than make a cringy post on the forums in a fit of rage.

Would I buy a car if it was delivered after some time? Yes, if It was pre-ordered just like Abberation is currently.... Otherwise, you go to a car lot and look at complete and ready products, and get to own it as soon as your purchase is complete.

 

People like you are the reason I don't really come to the official forums anymore.

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I was so sure it would release in october because of Scorched Earth.

With Scorched Earth they just put it out without delays or anything. I thought it would be the same with Aberration. That it's allready finished just waiting for the release date to be downloadable.

WC, next time do it like you did with Scorched. Announce it, when it is allready finished.

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13 hours ago, Zambezi said:

If only there was road map or list of known issues and a place that something like this could be publicly posted/shared. Issues or thing that have been acknowledged by WC internally (because they never acknowledge them publicly) and on that list the made simple status updates with no mention of dates.
 

 

My god, that would be beautiful. I've been watching a few trello boards myself. The devs check off their to do lists and keep us informed at the same time. The Pantropy board is a fine example of how to use it right.

I bet something like that would go a long way in preventing people from wanting, and experiencing issues with, refunds for Wildcard products.

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2 hours ago, Thorium said:

I was so sure it would release in october because of Scorched Earth.

With Scorched Earth they just put it out without delays or anything. I thought it would be the same with Aberration. That it's allready finished just waiting for the release date to be downloadable.

WC, next time do it like you did with Scorched. Announce it, when it is allready finished.

I have been blasting this on the forums the past 3 day trying to get someones attention and show them its the only time they've done something the right way as far as a release/dlc/update.

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18 hours ago, Slark said:

I stated in another post the best way to go about all of it (better then meeting a deadline on the right date) is to set a date. Set a date you know is longer then you need, and release it early. Noone will ever be mad about an early release. Everyone wins. Wildcard doesnt have to rush cuz they gave themself extra time, and the players get an update early. I wish they would just understand that tactic.

Exactly that simply they would be able to make the customers happy. We would each time be happy if they release it earlier.

 

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3 hours ago, Thorium said:

I was so sure it would release in october because of Scorched Earth.

With Scorched Earth they just put it out without delays or anything. I thought it would be the same with Aberration. That it's allready finished just waiting for the release date to be downloadable.

WC, next time do it like you did with Scorched. Announce it, when it is allready finished.

Your completely right. Its the same for all the wildcard processes, not only the DLCs. For patches for example, define ETA when its already finished and already work on the one after the next.  For example V273 should be announced when its finished and wildcard internally already works on V274.

Thats the way you get happy customers. At least 50% of all complain forum threads/posts could be eliminated with that simple change in the internal processes of wildcard.

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3 hours ago, Vrallox said:

My god, that would be beautiful. I've been watching a few trello boards myself. The devs check off their to do lists and keep us informed at the same time. The Pantropy board is a fine example of how to use it right.

I bet something like that would go a long way in preventing people from wanting, and experiencing issues with, refunds for Wildcard products.

Speaking of Trello board, they did promise to make one for us, so we could had been able keep track on what was planned etc., when they launched game in EA. Quickly enough they forgot about it completely.  That description was on steam store page for around 1,5 - 2 years. 

Trello Board is wonderful website for QA testing, developers and so on. It's extremely useful tool. Subnautica has such board and everyone can keep track on planned features or what is being fixed. 

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On 24/10/2017 at 4:21 PM, Olivar said:

It doesn't matter.
If WC announces something and has to postpone, people whine.
If WC doesn't announce and surprises people, people whine.

If you're working in the IT business, you know that promising an exact release date is near impossible.
Especially in the pressurised industry of ours called gaming.

I agree, hundred thousands of percent with this.

But, you, me, bunch of others and WC know what. Now, why did they need to announce a DLC when they did. DLC they fully knew wasn't going to be ready in October. 

This isn't the same situation as pushing the official release from August 8th to 29th. That situation was caused by some issues (mainly xBox certification and anti-duping deployement). 

The DLC it was not that. But as a company, if they say their DLC will come in January 2020...no one will buy it immediately, people will wait till they get closer to the date. Instead, as a company, they need cash so they say October 2017 and they say it on Friday September 1st...which is about a month away...and people spend money in hopes they get it sooner than latter. 

But in the end, a company makes a ''questionnable decision'' and we as customers are being the one criticized for disagreeing with it. 

Edited by powerstuck

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