Ark Survival Ascended's Limited Engrams and New Player Experience

[Highcommander]

Greetings fellow Ark enthusiasts,

I wanted to take a moment to discuss the potential impact of the upcoming release of Ark Survival Ascended, particularly for new players who joined the game after the introduction of Cryopods and Tek engrams.

It's important to note that Ascended will initially launch with only engrams from The Island, which means that advanced tech like Cryopods will not be available for use. While this decision may have been made for various reasons, it might pose some challenges for newcomers who have grown accustomed to these high-level tools.

Here are a few potential negative effects:

1. Steep Learning Curve: New players who have only experienced the game with Cryopods and Tek engrams might find themselves facing a steeper learning curve. They may need to adjust their playstyle and strategies to adapt to a more primitive tech level, which could be a significant shift.
2. Limited Mobility and Storage: Cryopods, for example, provide a convenient way to store and transport creatures. Without them, players may find it more difficult to manage their growing dino collections or organize expeditions efficiently. This could lead to frustration and slower progression.
3. PvP Disadvantage: In player-versus-player scenarios, not having access to advanced tech like Tek weaponry and defensive structures can put new players at a significant disadvantage. They may struggle to compete against seasoned players who are already adept at using these items.
4. Adjustment Period: Even if players eventually gain access to Tek engrams as the game progresses, there will likely be an adjustment period where they need to re-learn how to use these advanced tools effectively. This could lead to moments of frustration and potential setbacks in their gameplay experience.
5. Community Dynamics: Players who started after Cryopods and Tek engrams were introduced may have formed a different set of expectations and strategies compared to veterans. The limited engrams could create a divide in the player base and might lead to new players feeling somewhat alienated.

Think of all tools these newer players take for granted now. Remember the old days of Quetzal platforms to move around large tames? How about progressing through some of the caves with smaller tames because you can't just Pod the "larger" cavers past choke points? Remember dinos that died because they got stuck in tight spots, no pod saving those. What about teleporter pads for moving around the map? Cloning chambers for breeding? Dedicated storage boxes? The Chainsaw from Scorched Earth? Climbing picks from Aberration? The net projectile from Genesis (arguably the most useful item in the game for taming)? 

These items dramatically change HOW we all play the game.

Think of all the convenience tames that have been added to the game that people take for granted now. Maewings for nursing babies, Gacha farms, Snow owl pellets and healing, Fjordhawks for death item retrieval, Shadomanes for moving around the land and water, the list is extensive.... 

In conclusion, while the decision to launch Ascended with only The Island engrams may have valid reasons, it's crucial to consider how this could impact newer players. It's recommended that both the developer and the community provide support and resources to help newcomers adapt to this change. Additionally, veterans can play a significant role in helping new players bridge the gap and enjoy the game to its fullest potential.

Let's keep the dialogue open and ensure that everyone has a positive experience in Ark Survival Ascended!

Happy Surviving! 🦖🌿

[Joebl0w13]

48 minutes ago, Highcommander said:

It's important to note that Ascended will initially launch with only engrams from The Island, which means that advanced tech like Cryopods will not be available for use

They haven't decided on that yet. At least they haven't made public which way they are going to go. Last they said they may be leaning towards it.

[wildbill]

1 hour ago, Joebl0w13 said:

They haven't decided on that yet. At least they haven't made public which way they are going to go. Last they said they may be leaning towards it.

That is what I was thinking.

I don't think this would just affect new comers to the game if there were no cryopods and tek engrams. Most of us have been playing with these for some time or their mod equivalent.

Personally, it would have no affect on me, as I don't plan to play ASA until the dino storage or a similar mod is ported to ASA. I've become accustomed to playing with mods and haven't played without them for years now (like 5 years). A new shiny and improved ARK (ASA) isn't going to change that. I'll be waiting for my favorite mods to be ported before playing ASA.

[Stewbawl]

as the possible removal of the use of cryopods will effect all players equally i don't think it will be that big of a deal.  some players will have a harder time adapting to a new play style than others, but i don't think that means veteran players will have an advantage.  i know some players that would be considered veterans that are going to have a very difficult time, and some newer players that will very easily adapt.  it's going to boil down to the flexibility of the player, not how many hours they have in the game.

[Grissom]

For a Early Access release on a new engine that will im sure be full of bugs and performance issues along with a massive influx of players who will be sharing servers from both platforms having no cryo pods would be a massive mistake.   The effect on server performance alone is devastating especially in the new phase of the game where people will have hundreds of tames out breeding.  I have been here since the beginning and nothing improved performance in the game more than the addition of cryo pods.

 

Regardless of how much you approve of the old school way of doing things pre cryopod days its makes a huge impact on the game performance wise that UE5 will not be able to change that much because you are still adding more and more assets to render to the map with there own independent data that will constantly need to be rendered for each player that comes into view as well as constantly interact with the environment. No matter how bad players want this they will be crying in a few weeks after a thousand plus tames are standing outside on a server lagging maps to death complaining about server performance constantly.

 

To touch on your other points my group decided to start a ground up scorch earth using only in map assets only with fresh characters about a month ago on official to prep us for a fresh start of the game. Of course we do have cryo pods because you can purchase those as part of the in map engrams but every other convenience you list on your post other than the chainsaw we do not have available and the game really isn't to difficult as we are already about to take on manticore Gamma. However most of us have years of experience under our belts.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Grissom

[Pipinghot]

20 minutes ago, Grissom said:

I have been here since the beginning and nothing improved performance in the game more than the addition of cryo pods.

Strongly disagree with that claim, if a server is tame capped then cryopods are meaningless for server performance, and most official servers are tame capped (or close to it) most of the time. It's the tame cap that affects server performance, not cryopods, they introduced tame caps long before cryopods.

The only time cryopods improve server performance is if the server is significantly below the tame cap because the players on the server are using cryopods instead of having dino's unboxed, which almost never happens on Official servers, or even on busy unofficial servers. It's something that happens almost entirely on low population unofficial servers.

[Grissom]

1 hour ago, Pipinghot said:

Strongly disagree with that claim, if a server is tame capped then cryopods are meaningless for server performance, and most official servers are tame capped (or close to it) most of the time. It's the tame cap that affects server performance, not cryopods, they introduced tame caps long before cryopods.

The only time cryopods improve server performance is if the server is significantly below the tame cap because the players on the server are using cryopods instead of having dino's unboxed, which almost never happens on Official servers, or even on busy unofficial servers. It's something that happens almost entirely on low population unofficial servers.

Tame caps on servers do not help that much.  If you played on a official Gen 2 and fjordur servers during its high population times with the near tame cap out on the maps the servers where prone to constant massive lag spikes and crashing mostly due to the large amount of tames out on the map. We will also be moving into a phase we have not seen in years of mass breeding of dozens of tame types from wild to top stat far more than the island map has handled at once in years.

Tame caps help but with the increase strain from the engine it will put more strain on the server system not less regardless of what people believe. Players connection and using slower hardware which many will be using bare minimum or what is just required to get the game to run in a playable state because they will be moving from ASE to ASA which will have I imagine a far higher base system requirement. You also have to remember Official servers are going to explode with people as console and PC will be sharing servers now.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Grissom

[wildbill]

On the subject of tames in cryopods or tames out around a base. I think we are all assuming that UE5 will hit the same performance degradation when there are lots of tames on a server. It might just be that WC is considering removing cryopods because UE5 performance in this regard is significantly better. They have said that large bases will no longer create the huge lag seen on UE4, but I don't recall what was said about tames. It will be interesting to see how this works.

[Pipinghot]

19 hours ago, Grissom said:

Tame caps on servers do not help that much.  If you played on a official Gen 2 and fjordur servers during its high population times with the near tame cap out on the maps the servers where prone to constant massive lag spikes and crashing mostly due to the large amount of tames out on the map.

Do you realize you just supported my argument? Specifically, "constant massive lag spikes and crashing mostly due to the large amount of tames out on the map".

Before tame caps (and long before cryopods) this was so much worse. The reason they introduced tame caps in the first place was because of the "constant massive lag spikes and crashing mostly due to the large amount of tames out on the map". Those lag spikes and crashing continued to occur after tame caps, but to a significantly lesser degree, because tame caps significantly reduced the loads on the server.

However, with the introduction of cryopods those lag spikes and crashing did not see another significant reduction, because players continued to have large numbers of tames out on the map. By your own description, Gen 2 and Fjordur servers continued to have "constant massive lag spikes and crashing" in spite of the existence of cryopods. Cryopods did not help the performance of those servers because un-podded tames are what really matter.

In theory, if all of the players on a server agreed to keep almost all of their tames in cryopods so that they never approach the tame cap, that could improve server performance, but in reality that doesn't happen. What really happens in practice is that players keep tames unpodded until the tame cap is reached and only pod up the extra tames.

19 hours ago, Grissom said:

We will also be moving into a phase we have not seen in years of mass breeding of dozens of tame types from wild to top stat far more than the island map has handled at once in years.

Agreed. And cryopods won't help with that at all. Servers will be busy, players will be taming and breeding like crazy, constantly pushing the edge of the tame caps. They'll be cryopodding hundreds and hundreds of tames, and yet the tame caps will still be pushed to the limit, which will cause the corresponding lag spikes and server crashes.

19 hours ago, Grissom said:

Tame caps help but with the increase strain from the engine it will put more strain on the server system not less regardless of what people believe.

Tame caps already help as much as they can, unless WC decides to lower them even further. But whether they're lowered or not, new servers will be tame capped in spite of the massive use of cryopods, it's the unpodded tames (and breeding) that will be affecting server performance.

19 hours ago, Grissom said:

Players connection and using slower hardware which many will be using bare minimum or what is just required to get the game to run in a playable state because they will be moving from ASE to ASA which will have I imagine a far higher base system requirement.

Which has nothing to do with server performance unless the server is poorly designed. I agree that lots of people will have individual performance issues as they try to continue using their older computers, but this has nothing to do with the performance of the servers themselves. If I've overlooked your reasons for bringing this up please feel free to explain more, but right now this looks like and unrelated point.

19 hours ago, Grissom said:

You also have to remember Official servers are going to explode with people as console and PC will be sharing servers now.

Well yes, busy servers are busy servers, no matter what. But that's a separate discussion from whether tame caps or cryopods are the thing that improves server performance.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Pipinghot

[MMaas]

@Highcommander, to be fair I'm not interested in moving to ASA at all but a fresh, back to roots start might actualy hinder experienced players more than new players. Every now and then I spend some time on Prim+ and actualy like the planning element or the natural cap of don't tame/breed more than you can support. Most mistakes I make there are based on the way I'm used to play on official and fresh players don't have develloped these (in this case) bad habbits yet.
The only new players that might suffer of the throwback are those that see ARK as an alternative for Fortnite or COD and studdied 500 video's before jumping on a server, begging for help and starters.

What you see as possible negative is the one thing I see as silver lining: Learn the game instead of speedrunning it.

[Dreadcthulhu]

I think PVE needs some more dangerous E portions that specifically target large advanced bases, while ignoring smaller ones.  This sort of thing is even supported in lore; the backstory of Scorched Earth has the City of Nosti being destroyed by the overseer for getting too large.  Not only would this encourage more modest bases to improve server performance, it would also provide more of a late game challenge - you could have a big base, but would need to put in constant effort to refill turrets and repair stuff.

Another thing to consider is the whole mutation system; right now the best way to get better tames is to have a ton of breeders out while hoping that the RNG fairly blesses you with +2 on the right stat.  So people will have tons of tames out.  If that was changed people would have a lot less tames around.  My personal suggestion is to ditch mutations or strictly limit them, and instead have rare substances in the dangerous caves that provide one time stat boosts to your lines, similar to mutagen.  

[Grissom]

5 minutes ago, Dreadcthulhu said:

I think PVE needs some more dangerous E portions that specifically target large advanced bases, while ignoring smaller ones.  This sort of thing is even supported in lore; the backstory of Scorched Earth has the City of Nosti being destroyed by the overseer for getting too large.  Not only would this encourage more modest bases to improve server performance, it would also provide more of a late game challenge - you could have a big base, but would need to put in constant effort to refill turrets and repair stuff.

Another thing to consider is the whole mutation system; right now the best way to get better tames is to have a ton of breeders out while hoping that the RNG fairly blesses you with +2 on the right stat.  So people will have tons of tames out.  If that was changed people would have a lot less tames around.  My personal suggestion is to ditch mutations or strictly limit them, and instead have rare substances in the dangerous caves that provide one time stat boosts to your lines, similar to mutagen.  

 

The problem you will be causing with a feature like this on PVE is you will be forcing PVE bases into a combat mode. You will have wilds draining turrets constantly when you have players online. If your base is attacked when you just have just a few players online in a large tribe it would be very easy to troll a base by dragging multiple wilds to the base and having it drain the ammo while it was under the attack during or before the event. This would just turn into a troll filled form of PVEPVP like the days of dropping wild dinos into peoples bases before that was fixed.

[Dreadcthulhu]

Ah, but having a large enough base to trigger those attacks would be optional; simply build a more compact base and you don't have to worry about event creatures coming to attack it, would just need the normal anti-wild creatures defenses you do now.  Tribes could choose if they wanted to deal with the challenge.  

[wildbill]

4 hours ago, Dreadcthulhu said:

Ah, but having a large enough base to trigger those attacks would be optional; simply build a more compact base and you don't have to worry about event creatures coming to attack it, would just need the normal anti-wild creatures defenses you do now.  Tribes could choose if they wanted to deal with the challenge.  

Not sure about all PvE players, but for myself and some of the friends I play with, one of the things we like about PvE is that if you design the base correctly and don't leave tames near the perimeter, literally nothing will ever attack the base. I definitely would not want any feature that changes that. PvE players are not just bad PvP players that play PvE because they are not good at PvP. Most of them don't like PvP or anything that comes with it (especially the destruction of a base while offline).

PvE does not need to be more dangerous. The danger and adrenaline rush is something PvP players thrive on, but most PvE players do not want that. This might be something that is hard for the average PvP player to understand, but there is a lot more to the game of ARK then the danger of being killed or your base being destroyed.

Never once have I built in the 10K+ hours I've played ARK any turrets to put on my base. 

But yes, I have had trolls destroy my base by dragging Rock Elementals into it. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by wildbill

[MMaas]

5 hours ago, Dreadcthulhu said:

I think PVE needs some more dangerous E portions that specifically target large advanced bases, while ignoring smaller ones.  This sort of thing is even supported in lore; the backstory of Scorched Earth has the City of Nosti being destroyed by the overseer for getting too large.  Not only would this encourage more modest bases to improve server performance, it would also provide more of a late game challenge - you could have a big base, but would need to put in constant effort to refill turrets and repair stuff.

Another thing to consider is the whole mutation system; right now the best way to get better tames is to have a ton of breeders out while hoping that the RNG fairly blesses you with +2 on the right stat.  So people will have tons of tames out.  If that was changed people would have a lot less tames around.  My personal suggestion is to ditch mutations or strictly limit them, and instead have rare substances in the dangerous caves that provide one time stat boosts to your lines, similar to mutagen.  

If there would be a mechanic that rewards smart and pretty base building over massive lifeless bunkers I might be on board! When ARK 2 was mentioned I already had an idea/hope that decay would be tougher the futher away you where from the core of the base. Also I had some brainstorms about a maintenance monkey to help you keep a base in shape as long as you provided him with the materials.

Mutating should degrade by age of parents, this will make sure the lines need rejuvinating instead of the mass bulk breeding that is the way to go now.

[Joebl0w13]

This would be fun to opt into. Dumb to mandate it to all PvErs. 

[arkgerman1975]

Bitte denken sie auch an Menschen die 14 stunden am Tag arbeiten da sind die kryos eine sehr grosse Hilfe um Tiere richtig aufwachsen zu lassen.

 

[MMaas]

2 hours ago, arkgerman1975 said:

Bitte denken sie auch an Menschen die 14 stunden am Tag arbeiten da sind die kryos eine sehr grosse Hilfe um Tiere richtig aufwachsen zu lassen.

Sorry to say it, but those rare excemptions can not demand the rest of the world to adjust to their addiction. Besides, those already have a hobby: Work.
And before you start on me: I've been there too, doing 12 hour a day, 7 days a week. This was my own choice and it ment that certain activities were just not for me.

[arkgerman1975]

Vor 1 Stunde sagte MMaas:

Es tut mir leid, das sagen zu müssen, aber diese seltenen Ausnahmen können nicht dazu führen, dass sich der Rest der Welt an seine Sucht gewöhnt. Außerdem haben die schon ein Hobby: Arbeit.
Und bevor Sie mit mir beginnen: Ich war auch dort, 12 Stunden am Tag, 7 Tage die Woche. Das war meine eigene Entscheidung und es bedeutete, dass bestimmte Aktivitäten einfach nichts für mich waren.

 

[arkgerman1975]

1 hour ago, MMaas said:

Es tut mir leid, das sagen zu müssen, aber diese seltenen Ausnahmen können nicht dazu führen, dass sich der Rest der Welt an seine Sucht gewöhnt. Außerdem haben die schon ein Hobby: Arbeit.
Und bevor Sie mit mir anfangen: Ich war auch dort, 12 Stunden am Tag, 7 Tage die Woche. Das war meine eigene Entscheidung und es bedeutete, dass bestimmte Aktivitäten einfach nichts für mich waren.

 

[arkgerman1975]

Gerade eben sagte arkgerman1975:

Es ist eigentlich egal Hauptsache das Spiel kommt ich ich spiele das Spiel auch sehr gerne neu und premitiv auch ark ist das beste Spiel der welt

 

[banggugyangu]

People still use cryopods when Dino Storage v2 exists.... That's interesting....

[GP]

4 hours ago, banggugyangu said:

People still use cryopods when Dino Storage v2 exists.... That's interesting....

That's a comment that comes from a purely private server or singleplayer person.

[HerbaServ]

Cryopods and Cryofridge ARE available on the Island...

That being said, net traps, egg incubators and no striders are showing off a lot. Back to collect dinos like Anky, Doe, Castoroids., ...

Edited September 17, 2023 by HerbaServ

[Pipinghot]

On 9/14/2023 at 10:37 AM, Dreadcthulhu said:

I think PVE needs some more dangerous E portions that specifically target large advanced bases, while ignoring smaller ones.

Two words: Conan Exiles.

I'm sure there are other games that do this too, but if ARK makes changes to make it play just like Conan Exiles then that dilutes the individual character of each game. If you want your base to be attacked in PvE there's a game that does this, if you don't want your base to be attacked in PvP there's different game that does it that way.

On 9/14/2023 at 10:37 AM, Dreadcthulhu said:

that specifically target large advanced bases, while ignoring smaller ones.

Also, this just punishes smaller tribes who want to build bigger, more interesting bases. A tribe of 12 can defend their base much more easily than a tribe of 3. If the tribe of 3 people wants to build a bigger base because it's more interesting, or more fun, or just looks better at the location where they're building, why should they be punished by being forced to spend a bigger portion of their time farming materials to keep their turrets filled? Lots of people build for the fun of building, they shouldn't be punished for enjoying on of the main features of the game.

On 9/14/2023 at 10:37 AM, Dreadcthulhu said:

Not only would this encourage more modest bases to improve server performance

People would just build a larger number of small bases that work together in a complex. Instead of one or two big buildings they'd have 8-12 smaller buildings as a way to get around the game mechanics (which is what some tribes actually do in Conan Exiles). It's not that difficult to separate a single base into several smaller mini-bases with each mini-base having a specialized function.

In the end, it doesn't help server performance at all, the only thing it does is force bigger tribes to re-arrange how they build their buildings.

On 9/14/2023 at 10:37 AM, Dreadcthulhu said:

it would also provide more of a late game challenge - you could have a big base, but would need to put in constant effort to refill turrets and repair stuff.

This is just my opinion,but you're solving a "problem" that isn't really a problem, and you're doing it by creating a new problem that actually is a real problem. The main problem with ARK is the incredible amount of time that you have to sink into tedious chores and busy work. There are so many tasks that have to be done over and over and over again that don't benefit the enjoyment of game play in any way, and this suggestion would only make things worse.

In PvP people understand that they have to constantly farm materials for turrets because they're competing with other players, if you want to stay ahead of other people you have to work smarter and work harder. But in PvE this would just create a new grind that no one really enjoys, and on top of that people would lose tames that they've spend a lot of time taming & breeding, and they'd have to do all of that work again just to catch up to where they started.

Adding more time sinks to the game is not really an improvement. Adding a new "constant effort" doesn't make the game more dangerous, it just makes it more tedious.

On 9/14/2023 at 10:37 AM, Dreadcthulhu said:

Another thing to consider is the whole mutation system; right now the best way to get better tames is to have a ton of breeders out while hoping that the RNG fairly blesses you with +2 on the right stat.  So people will have tons of tames out.  If that was changed people would have a lot less tames around.  My personal suggestion is to ditch mutations or strictly limit them, and instead have rare substances in the dangerous caves that provide one time stat boosts to your lines, similar to mutagen.  

You might want to consider making this a completely separate thread, or put it the suggestions forum.

WildCard made mutations a massive time sink on purpose, but maybe you can find a way to make that time sink more fun or interesting.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Pipinghot