ifixxed Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Whenever there is an update that has a patch note relating to any bossing dinos or bosses themselves, I run some tests to make sure our current team of rexxes can handle the job. Well, with some changes in the most recent update v262... made the bosses a little harder. What I was looking to test was this from the patch notes Fixed Bosses so they no longer have random levels, but will scale correctly on game and server difficulty. As I guessed, it makes the bosses spawn in with static stats at level 1(as opposed to the random stats the Brood and Dragon would get into health rolls before), much like the Monkey boss does. I like the idea of this change as you can calculate the dps needed to kill the bosses and gauge what you can do from there. However, I saw posts on survive the ark stating that bosses were taking much less damage from dinos and guns after patch V262.0 so I had to test it for myself, and they 100% do. It makes sense tho since Gamma Brood spawns in with 324000.0 health, that is around 1/3rd the average of what it used to spawn in before V262.0, when it would roll 15 points into health, of the 124 it could roll. Thus, we do 1/3rd the dmg to Bosses now. I still like the idea of static numbers so you can calculate effective dps and what is needed, as stated. With all that said, these changes would be favorable if the bosses had a direct 1/3rd the health of an average point roll into health before V262.0, but alas, they do not. Here is the rolls and effective health they have now. Brood Gamma Health in (v262) is 324000. That x3 would be 972000, which equals 15 rolls into health pre262. Beta Health in (v262) is 648000. That x3 would be 1940000, which equals 33 rolls into health pre262. Alpha Health in (v262) is 972000. That x3 would be 2916000, which equals 24 rolls into health pre262. Megapithecus Note: Megapithecus had static health pre262, much like it does in (v262) but the values are different and he does take 1/3rd the damage from guns and dinos. Gamma Health in (v262) is 180000. His health pre262 was 320,000. A third of his old health would be~ 105600. So New Health - Old Health(at 1/3rd) [180000-105600] would leave a difference of 74400, aprox 70% More health in (v262). If we run that back, his current health would be equivalent to 544000 (pre262). Beta Health in (v262) is 360000. His health pre262 was 440000. A third of his old health would be~ 145200. So new health - old health(at 1/3rd) [360000-145200] would leave a difference of 214800, aprox 148% More health. If we run that back, his current health would be equivalent to 1091200 (pre262). Alpha Health in (v262) is 540000. His health pre262 was 550000. A third of his old health would be~ 181500. So new health - old health(at 1/3rd) [540000-181500] would leave a difference of 358500, aprox 198% More health. If we run that back, his current health would be equivalent to 1639000 (pre262). Dragon Gamma Health in (v262) is 432000. That x3 would be 1296000, which equals 27 rolls into health pre262. Beta Health in (v262) is 864000. That x3 would be 2592000, which equals 49 rolls into health pre262. Alpha Health in (v262) is 1296000. That x3 would be 3888000, which equals 52 rolls into health pre262. Comparing those results to the new health amounts, besides Gamma Brood, I would consider the new health values a tech Buff to the bosses all around. A boss having 298% of his original health and another getting 52 of 124 point rolls into health is a bit much. If that isnt worse enough they nerfed the drop rates of element from the dragon as well(excluding Gamma). Gamma gives 40 now, up from 34. Beta gives 110, down from 140. Alpha gives 220, down from 300. .. And if all that is not worse enough, I got one more for you. While testing I noticed something with the Megapithecus. His Pound attack on both Alpha and Beta seem to ignore armor. No matter the saddle(even having none on what so ever) the attack did the same amount. For Alpha Monkey it was 3,600 per pound. For Beta it was 2,400. His rock throw was scaling with the saddle armor rating as usual, but the pound remained constant. Only Mate Boost, Yut Buff and the Imprinting buff(has to be ridden tho, and who is going to do that in there) seemed to make a difference to some degree. All in All, the beta and Alpha version of every boss seem to be out of line with current expected results and need to be revisited. With an Attack that has armor pen, as is the case with the Monkey on Beta and Alpha, combined with the HUGE increase in health pools, the rexxes needed to successfully kill it legit would be asinine. It would have to be one or the other, either the attacks do armor pen, but the bosses have 1/3rd the direct health of pre262, or the attacks need to scale with saddles, and the can keep the new 298% of the original health pools. I play on an official PVE server and I enjoying helping others do the boss fights, mostly smaller 2-3 man tribes. Both the Brood and Monkey were able to be killed with 1-2 people (Gamma and Beta), as all you needed were rexes with enough health and dmg to out dps the the incoming dmg. Our current line (20 near the obelisk have 40k hp and most around 910% melee, all saddled with 82-97 armor). We replicated them on our test server and brought in a yut for Beta Brood… they could not handle it. I am working on charts to show Health/Damage values and what is needed to execute a kill and I can already see its going to be crazy what the demand of stats on the rexes are going to be needed to kill even the beta versions of the bosses.. And I am not even talking about the Dragon. Dont get me started on that boss. I do not post and complain hardly ever. I get it, this game is pre launch and changes happen all the time, for better or worse. However, this recent stealth buff of the bosses is truly unmerited. The demand for a bread line of imprinted rexxes to match the current build of the bosses is out of reach for even the most hardcore Ark Players (even for PVE traders and breeders). Pushing it to the extreme and having 10 people ride 90%+ imprinted dinos, all of which has 60+ at hatch rolls into health and damage would only cover such a small % of players why even have bosses in the game? I mean at some point we will get enough health mutations on our current rex line to equal the demand needed for Med Monkey(once again) but at 65 points into health at birth and that not even be close is a daunting realization. Simply put, the stealth buffs(even if unintentional) need to be addressed. If it was intentional, I would just like to know as we def wont be running bosses for some time now. Note If there exist Math or Spelling issues, just let me know. I typed this pretty fast and I am still working on a better write up to show whats needed to do the bosses. Thanks! I posted this on reddit aswell, Here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeningWei Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Good info, can confirm I did beta mega a week ago and it was easy with my setup. Tried again an hour ago and its like fighting two or three of them. Would had been nice to get all this info in the patch notes though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulta Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Geeze...just when I read that the bosses MIGHT be do-able at certain difficulties, the window of ones do-able shrinks more and more... Come on WC, don't you want us to do the bosses? Like...at all? Don't you want use to try out ALL your Tek stuff? I want to think it's a bug but geeze...this is disheartening to know that even a largely bred down line of Rex's with a Yuty won't work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Jatheish Posted July 17, 2017 Administrator Share Posted July 17, 2017 Awesome write up, it's really much appreciated. This topic has blown up a bit on reddit, so I posted this response there but I'll share it here for visibility: We'll still be taking a long at the bosses for online play. They've gone through a lot of iteration for offline/single player lately, as for the online version, it uses a scaling system off of that, in combination with the server difficulty -- we'll likely need to adjust those numbers. Have informed the Gameplay guys of the feedback though, thank you for sharing! Sent this link directly to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRed1227 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 As it stands now, after reading this, I feel like it's a bit of an understatement to say that this whole boss thing is a bit out a wack. Scaling is great and should based on the number of players, but not the difficulty of the server. Seeing as how officials are all the same, having that as a scaling factor is a bit rediculous. So if I'm reading all of this right, it would scale with the difficulty of the servers AND the level of the players? So if we took 10 level 100 players and threw them all at brood easy, her hp and dps would be greater just bc of the level of the players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator Jatheish Posted July 17, 2017 Administrator Share Posted July 17, 2017 No the difficulty level of the server, Officials are 5.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarryCade Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 That's good you took the time out to investigated this thoroughly, unfortunately for us we found out too late and we lost our last boss fighting rex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifixxed Posted July 17, 2017 Author Share Posted July 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Jat said: Awesome write up, it's really much appreciated. This topic has blown up a bit on reddit, so I posted this response there but I'll share it here for visibility: We'll still be taking a long at the bosses for online play. They've gone through a lot of iteration for offline/single player lately, as for the online version, it uses a scaling system off of that, in combination with the server difficulty -- we'll likely need to adjust those numbers. Have informed the Gameplay guys of the feedback though, thank you for sharing! Sent this link directly to them Thank you sir. The communication you have with the community and response always helps out when things get a little out of wack. I always like to double check that we can still successfully kill bosses before we try on officials and these results had me worried. When and if they get changed Ill be sure to report back with new infos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly808 Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Thank you for testing and posting this info. Was planning to take some friends through the medium mega this week but will wait until further rebalance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeningWei Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I think the other bosses seem fine but Megapithecus needs some work, at the moment it is super OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDude Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Thanks for doing the testing and writeup ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Gamma bosses on the Center now (262.16) Ape: 320k hp BM: 324k hp Pre-262 I could go to boss arena and kill Ape 320k hp and brood 1400k hp with my rexes. Same rexes got 'defeated' by Ape 320k and 324k brood yesterday. Ape just killed 30% of my rexes, rexes were just not killing fast enough. They did something to rexes, or some cock-up with Ape boss on the Center. Also I took Yuty this time for the first time, that supposed to help. It ended in disaster.. I've got a video.. let me upload. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackyling Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 I tried BM middle this day on the Island. 20 Rex with 700meele and 30k+hp... bevore 262 it was not a big Problem to beat the BM on middle. Killd the BM in 5 minutes. Rex lost around 12-15k hp.. Now 262 (Same Rex) : ALL Rex are Dead in 3 minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Maybe bosses are meant to be killed with duped god rexes, not rexes we made time and effort to breed for many generations by ourselves. 20 Rexes with 30k+ hp, 700-800 melee and Acs 86 armour sadles and they die like flies from Gamma bosses.. and what;s the reward? 16 Element. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorium Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 4 hours ago, BigRed1227 said: As it stands now, after reading this, I feel like it's a bit of an understatement to say that this whole boss thing is a bit out a wack. Scaling is great and should based on the number of players, but not the difficulty of the server. Seeing as how officials are all the same, having that as a scaling factor is a bit rediculous. So if I'm reading all of this right, it would scale with the difficulty of the servers AND the level of the players? So if we took 10 level 100 players and threw them all at brood easy, her hp and dps would be greater just bc of the level of the players? Scaling with player numbers would be a good idea. Because if it's balanced for 10 players with weapons it's just not doable on low populated servers or small tribes. Scale boss difficulty with server difficulty and number of players entering the arena, not there level. Also scale element reward with number of players to balance it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balteraxe Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 Yeah I must agree. The bosses have been increased a lot health/dmg wise, I play on a center map, tried the monkey/spider boss after the recent update. And noticed that the monkey has a big increase of health and damage, Kudo's to the topic starter for investigating the matter and realizing there is an armour penetrating skill. Makes sense, seeing as how bloody my rexes were on easy mode (broodmother was fine tough). That is kinda OP for a boss to have, the armour penetrating skill. Than it's like the Dragon's Fire attack. Which makes saddles absolete. And I'm glad Jat IS responding to this topic, I started one myself on the matter, bu no response. So I hope this gets fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kallor Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 It's good that you are changing it, but what concerns me is how you got it so wrong to start with. You (WC) are in control of the entire game and yet don't really appear to have any clue with balancing bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The1trueGodMe Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 my tribe an 2 alliances went against med ape after update yesterday and to say the least since last patch it is ridiculous we lost 11 rexs when it got to half health all just got wiped (on xbox) we all had acen saddles we had very good rexs all over 32k health mele varied from 700 up to 843 and we got smashed It isn't just us either lots of people have lost a lot of rexs since update one tribe lost a load of rexs to a lvl 1 brood another lost 9 rexs to a boss that he beat before a couple of times an this is just few of a lot all over fb pages.an all had yutti with them for the perks and still wiped we are going to avoid these now until the creators actually use REAL rexs that are lvld from 449 base melee an 14k/15k health an lvld them selves to see what is it like from actual players perspective instead of lets spawn us in a stupid rex.. oh look its easy players wont mind don't get me wrong make it challenge it's a boss just don't make it ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaxx Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 @Jat your customers loosing month of work and farm within 5 min because you (wildcard) release a patch with boss changes without testing it? other games are testing raid and boss changes several weeks.... rly great! i would say its ready for release^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CompactDisc Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 A better way to test this might be to allow console spawning of creatures with preset levels, gender and stats. It would be far easier to replicate cases like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonasHR Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 thank you for this PSA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ifixxed Posted July 17, 2017 Author Share Posted July 17, 2017 3 hours ago, Musketeer said: Gamma bosses on the Center now (262.16) Ape: 320k hp BM: 324k hp Pre-262 I could go to boss arena and kill Ape 320k hp and brood 1400k hp with my rexes. Same rexes got 'defeated' by Ape 320k and 324k brood yesterday. Ape just killed 30% of my rexes, rexes were just not killing fast enough. They did something to rexes, or some cock-up with Ape boss on the Center. Also I took Yuty this time for the first time, that supposed to help. It ended in disaster.. I've got a video.. let me upload. Bosses take 1/3rd the damage from guns and dinos, on all maps it appears, Including the center and SE. Just tested both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 A video from our yesterday's disaster.. Something that supposed to get better with Yuty... What a surprise. Yuty was tamed with primitive saddle.. expendable.. I just wanted to see what benefits Yuty brings to the arena. Rexes... 30k+ hp, 700-800 melee, 86 armour saddles... Normally I used to kill both bosses and Rexes were left with 60%+ hp comfortably. Tedious boss fighting for only 16 element, but safe. Not anymore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maedean Shepard Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 39 minutes ago, Musketeer said: A video from our yesterday's disaster.. Something that supposed to get better with Yuty... What a surprise. Yuty was tamed with primitive saddle.. expendable.. I just wanted to see what benefits Yuty brings to the arena. Rexes... 30k+ hp, 700-800 melee, 86 armour saddles... Normally I used to kill both bosses and Rexes were left with 60%+ hp comfortably. Tedious boss fighting for only 16 element, but safe. Not anymore! You didn't use the fear attack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musketeer Posted July 17, 2017 Share Posted July 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, Maedean Shepard said: You didn't use the fear attack? I've read it no longer works in boss arenas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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