Griffin Balance

[LouSpowells]

17 hours ago, ChargingParacerParacer said:

People also don't seem to care about other obvious imbalances like there only really being one main dino to take to boss battles and only 4 support dinos worth taking. People only seem to care about changes for the sake of balance when it's something they cant be bothered to figure out by themselves. 'Nerf it!' is pretty much just universally gamer slang for 'I can't figure out how to win!'

This part is spot on. It's the same in Ark as it is in every other game that receives balance updates periodically. Most of the people who argue about balance by using the terms "nerf" and "buff" have no interest in balance whatsoever because it's rarely an argument about balance. It's pretty much always an argument based on entitlement to convenience.

Personally, I'm neither for nor against a Griffin rebalance. I agree that killing Griffins can be inconvenient, but it's situationally inconvenient and rarely more so than many other apex tames. A change isn't nearly as necessary as Chicken Little's might lead people to believe, as there is and always will be a FOTM-dino to complain about.

[Carcajou]

On 11/22/2017 at 3:42 PM, LouSpowells said:

 I said that the best way to kill a Griffin is by using another Griffin, and that I believe Griffins are balanced.

Kappa 

 

I do not like to wear shoes but when i do .I believe they are best when i wear them on my feet. I also believe that the way building work in this game is "absolute". 

 

I been Raiding for the past 2 week tamed any griffin i would see even lv 40 since griffin lv 40 is still better than a breeded ptera.

I also got in situation where a guy was defending is base with a griffin and this guy was doing 5k damage a swing. Making me hate is griffin since i normally dont defend with griffin so i go stamina and hp. Is strategy was very good since he was all melee what he would do is go out swing a few time then go back in never leaving the safe zone of is base. 

He said is griffin ad 800 % melee , it was probably 700 % but hey i dont think griffin should be able to do 5k damage in one swing but maybe am wrong.

[ChargingParacerParacer]

54 minutes ago, LouSpowells said:

This part is spot on. It's the same in Ark as it is in every other game that receives balance updates periodically. Most of the people who argue about balance by using the terms "nerf" and "buff" have no interest in balance whatsoever because it's rarely an argument about balance. It's pretty much always an argument based on entitlement to convenience.

Personally, I'm neither for nor against a Griffin rebalance. I agree that killing Griffins can be inconvenient, but it's situationally inconvenient and rarely more so than many other apex tames. A change isn't nearly as necessary as Chicken Little's might lead people to believe, as there is and always will be a FOTM-dino to complain about.

I'm honestly just tired of them gimping some things and saying it's for balance when there is so much they are ignoring that would piss off the favored customers. They have already come up with a work around for people that don't like the turret change and quickly came up with the option to get rid of the respec limit even though I can see why a limit to those are good but 8-9 months after the flyer nerf and every player is still forced to deal with it. That's garbage. If they nerf yet another dino thats actually worth using without just making the bad dinos more worth it to use that will just be even more reason for me to not buy anything else and constantly remind WC why I'm no longer a customer.

[LouSpowells]

1 hour ago, ChargingParacerParacer said:

I'm honestly just tired of them gimping some things and saying it's for balance when there is so much they are ignoring that would piss off the favored customers. They have already come up with a work around for people that don't like the turret change and quickly came up with the option to get rid of the respec limit even though I can see why a limit to those are good but 8-9 months after the flyer nerf and every player is still forced to deal with it. That's garbage. If they nerf yet another dino thats actually worth using without just making the bad dinos more worth it to use that will just be even more reason for me to not buy anything else and constantly remind WC why I'm no longer a customer.

It surprises me a bit that you responded to the point I was making as you did. Nonetheless, sorry the flyer balance made the game inconvenient for you. Hopefully one day the devs will allow you to play the game with the exploitative pre-release mechanics you became accustomed to before balance passes were made.

In all seriousness though, the Devs are going to build the game the way they see fit. No one is "forced" to deal with anything...even if they don't like the Devs' rules and still want to play the game.

[Probitas]

8 hours ago, CaptoBraunch said:

I think anyone who plays PvP can see that the griffin is the undisputed king of the skies. Should it be? Hell yeah, if not neck and neck with the wyvern. However, the margin by which they are superior should be reduced for balance's sake. They need a moderate health nerf, or a headshot multiplier, or some compromise of both.

Theyre faster than pteras and tankier than quetzals, anyone who knows anything about balance in video games should recognize how disgusting that is. Regardless of how cool you feel riding one.

Uhm, you do know the Griffin is a 'magical/fantasy' creature, a combination of a land animal and a sky animal? With the best possible attributes of both? It's basically a faster argy combined with a wolf that does less damage. It's utility is limited unless the people being attacked in PvP are just setting themselves up to lose. Yes, you are going to lose your huge dino farms if you don't cover them over with a roof....why on earth would anyone expect to feel safe not doing that on a PvP server? Players have become complacent thinking nothing could threaten them and now suddenly in comes a threat they didn't plan on, refuse to adapt to, and will not properly assess in any comparison. Trying to snipe the Griffin from the ground is silly when you can more easily hit the rider from a slightly more elevated position. You guys need to have a few dimorphs waiting around to sick on riders as that is what they are made for, because without the rider the Griffin is just hanging in the sky and would likely lose to a flock of dimorphs. Lone attackers should present no threat to anyone unless they are attacking one of those crazy dino hoarders who keeps all the big ones and none of the little ones and leaves themselves open to attack in such a fashion. In fact in that case turrets don't even come into play as a sniper round goes farther than a turret shot.

1 hour ago, LouSpowells said:

It surprises me a bit that you responded to the point I was making as you did. Nonetheless, sorry the flyer balance made the game inconvenient for you. Hopefully one day the devs will allow you to play the game with the exploitative pre-release mechanics you became accustomed to before balance passes were made.

In all seriousness though, the Devs are going to build the game the way they see fit. No one is "forced" to deal with anything...even if they don't like the Devs' rules and still want to play the game.

There was nothing exploitative about the flyer mechanics since no one was hacking and WC had programmed it that way, and all players could do it. I think some gamers are too used to short battles from games like WoW and don't like having to work for them. And I expect there are more PvE players than there are PvP, plus there is a reason the Classic Flyer mod is one of the higher used mods out there on unofficial servers - that alone says a lot. Why listen to such a small subsection of the players and hit the game so hard with an adjustment that makes the game less fun for them, just to satisfy some other gamers complaining about inherent game problems due to coding that only affect them but only because they don't like having to adapt?

[Durry]

HHAHA

 

Please raise awareness by sharing this video to everyone. People need to know and ark devs please fixy the grffin

 

[TrueGoose364556]

I mean, I don’t know if it’s op more like border line. My only real complaint is I think it’s a bit too fast and it’s dive bomb just does a ridiculous amount of damage, but then again I think flyers just kinda out class most land Dino’s by nature, what we need is some anti-air Dino/turret who can temporaly bring flyers to the ground, this ways the flyers have more of a counter and we can see more land Dinos during raids

[DarthaNyan]

16 hours ago, Probitas said:

It's basically a faster argy combined with a wolf that does less damage. It's utility is limited.

It is an "Argy combined with a wolf" that has Rex's health pool, Rhino's charge attack mechanic, that doesnt require full charge to do maximum damage and doesnt stop you from moving. It outspeeds everything in the Air. Has all traits of a Tapejara.

Swiss army knife of utility.

Such a balanced creature...

[Ep1cM0nk3y]

7 minutes ago, DarthaNyan said:

It is an "Argy combined with a wolf" that has Rex's health pool, Rhino's charge attack mechanic, that doesnt require full charge to do maximum damage and doesnt stop you from moving. It outspeeds everything in the Air. Has all traits of a Tapejara.

Swiss army knife of utility.

Such a balanced creature...

Definately needs a bigger cost to tame/breed or a rebalance of sorts (looking at the heath mainly, maybe add a dive meter like the rhino charge imo)..

[KingGalahad]

It's funny, this thread is entitled "Griffin Balance" but it mostly seems to be a whinefest from people that are afraid to go up against Griffins. All these nerf threads have one thing in common, they seem to come from people that can't adapt to the game and insist upon trying to force everyone to play their style of game instead.

[Ascendant]

If changes must be made to the Griffin, I would suggest only allowing the passenger to use weapons (or nix firing while mounted altogether,) and/or possibly adding a headshot multiplier.

While the dive swipe is powerful, it requires proper positioning and timing to use. You can't just unleash this devastating maneuver at any time you please or in any which direction that suits you. Beyond that, a griffin also cannot beat a wyvern in a race for altitude.

[Probitas]

5 hours ago, DarthaNyan said:

It is an "Argy combined with a wolf" that has Rex's health pool, Rhino's charge attack mechanic, that doesnt require full charge to do maximum damage and doesnt stop you from moving. It outspeeds everything in the Air. Has all traits of a Tapejara.

Swiss army knife of utility.

Such a balanced creature...

Oh I see, you think a Griffin should be balanced with a land based creature. Incorrect. A flying creature should balance it. Hm, let's see, there is one. The Griffin. Never heard of 'fight fire with fire'? Griffin on the ground is toast, and it doesn't come close to doing the damage a Rex can do on the ground. Try to remember the Rex keeps biting, while the Griffin attack, if it does hit, and doesn't insta-kill, has to be setup again by climbing, all the while the rider is at risk. And the Rhino can do exactly what the Griffin does from the ground, so how is that bad? Because it can fly over a wall? Maybe don't try and spread out like cancer on your server guys, and roof over your base. You're doing that to yourselves. There is a reason terrorist bunkers are underground and FULLY ENCLOSED.......And the Griffin does NOT fly faster than a ptero. At least, not on a server with the Flyer mod on it, as you can adjust speeds. Maybe complain to WC to allow making flyers faster again instead of constantly trying to ruin the flying experience for every person not playing on a PvP server.

And that video further up only proves gameplay on consoles sucks and the guy on the Tap is a bad gamer, as he couldn't manage to do much of anything he was doing, unless the video was total troll. You might find a better experience using a keyboard and mouse instead of a gamepad. It would be a poopload faster, that's for sure. You can't complain about being killed if you are wasting time playing with the menu system on your gamepad. And maybe don't complain if you lose a one on one fight on a Tap facing a Griffin - you all know how that's going to end. People may as well complain when a Rhino mows them down, same difference. As far as balancing for tame time it takes a hella long time to tame one even using kibble. I figure since the tame timers affect all players equally there is no reason to even look at that as a balance issue. Unless the point is to prevent new players from getting dinos the established players already have at the same cost. If that's the case,, wipe servers again (or at least destroy all Griffins at start up) as a major adjustment like that to tames means everyone should have to start over, to be fair to all players. It would be similar to people exploiting an MMO to get max level, and THEN pointing out the exploit to the developer.  And the developer not forcing a roll back. They benefit, everyone else gets the shaft. Sounds fair, right?

But then there is a HUGE anti-flying bias in PvP apparently from both gamers and WC devs. Instead of complaining about losing go grab one for yourself and use it. Stop being so stubborn about thinking the way you play the game is the way it's supposed to be played. They fix that turret issue and set turrets to target flyers and also cap breeding stat increases, and I bet that they could allow flyer stat increases to speed again and there wouldn't be any issues at all - except from gamers that refuse to adapt and change the way they play the game when getting beaten on a regular basis.

Man up and learn to adapt. There is a way - find it. Or learn how to lose with better grace than 3 yr old kids getting sent to their rooms for misbehaving.

[MrGerard]

4 hours ago, Probitas said:

Oh I see, you think a Griffin should be balanced with a land based creature. Incorrect. A flying creature should balance it. Hm, let's see, there is one. The Griffin. Never heard of 'fight fire with fire'? Griffin on the ground is toast, and it doesn't come close to doing the damage a Rex can do on the ground. Try to remember the Rex keeps biting, while the Griffin attack, if it does hit, and doesn't insta-kill, has to be setup again by climbing, all the while the rider is at risk. And the Rhino can do exactly what the Griffin does from the ground, so how is that bad? Because it can fly over a wall? Maybe don't try and spread out like cancer on your server guys, and roof over your base. You're doing that to yourselves. There is a reason terrorist bunkers are underground and FULLY ENCLOSED.......And the Griffin does NOT fly faster than a ptero. At least, not on a server with the Flyer mod on it, as you can adjust speeds. Maybe complain to WC to allow making flyers faster again instead of constantly trying to ruin the flying experience for every person not playing on a PvP server.

And that video further up only proves gameplay on consoles sucks and the guy on the Tap is a bad gamer, as he couldn't manage to do much of anything he was doing, unless the video was total troll. You might find a better experience using a keyboard and mouse instead of a gamepad. It would be a poopload faster, that's for sure. You can't complain about being killed if you are wasting time playing with the menu system on your gamepad. And maybe don't complain if you lose a one on one fight on a Tap facing a Griffin - you all know how that's going to end. People may as well complain when a Rhino mows them down, same difference. As far as balancing for tame time it takes a hella long time to tame one even using kibble. I figure since the tame timers affect all players equally there is no reason to even look at that as a balance issue. Unless the point is to prevent new players from getting dinos the established players already have at the same cost. If that's the case,, wipe servers again (or at least destroy all Griffins at start up) as a major adjustment like that to tames means everyone should have to start over, to be fair to all players. It would be similar to people exploiting an MMO to get max level, and THEN pointing out the exploit to the developer.  And the developer not forcing a roll back. They benefit, everyone else gets the shaft. Sounds fair, right?

But then there is a HUGE anti-flying bias in PvP apparently from both gamers and WC devs. Instead of complaining about losing go grab one for yourself and use it. Stop being so stubborn about thinking the way you play the game is the way it's supposed to be played. They fix that turret issue and set turrets to target flyers and also cap breeding stat increases, and I bet that they could allow flyer stat increases to speed again and there wouldn't be any issues at all - except from gamers that refuse to adapt and change the way they play the game when getting beaten on a regular basis.

Man up and learn to adapt. There is a way - find it. Or learn how to lose with better grace than 3 yr old kids getting sent to their rooms for misbehaving.

Nobody said they are not willing to adapt. The fact is that is unbalanced. 

Lets just give the Griffin lightning breath, scuba gear and harvest berries when it dive bombs so we can remove every other dino from the game.

We want diversity.!! I like that certain dinos being great at one thing and sucking at another. I don't want to outclassed in every way when up against a Griffin. And i don't like ruining everybody's day when I'm flying on one.! I can one hit a mid lvl ptera that took a guy 2 hours to tame with raw meat.

[Probitas]

On 12/7/2017 at 2:11 AM, MrGerard said:

Nobody said they are not willing to adapt. The fact is that is unbalanced. 

Lets just give the Griffin lightning breath, scuba gear and harvest berries when it dive bombs so we can remove every other dino from the game.

We want diversity.!! I like that certain dinos being great at one thing and sucking at another. I don't want to outclassed in every way when up against a Griffin. And i don't like ruining everybody's day when I'm flying on one.! I can one hit a mid lvl ptera that took a guy 2 hours to tame with raw meat.

Griffins cannot swim. The Baryonx can swim and go on land, and it can jump. It's a raptor/sarco with stun added.....that's a heck of a lot more useful than flying in my mind. Flying is useful for covering a lot of ground and tagging beacons. I think everyone must be building bases on land all the time - try building underwater, if you guys were using your Tek engrams to do that I bet we'd never hear about Griffins. We'd be hearing about how Baryonx needs to be nerfed because spamming stun is too OP.

You have dino diversity in the game. The Griffin simply cannot take the place of all the dinos in the game....that's a huge exaggeration. You are only looking at land-based combat like there is no such thing as water-based or aerial combat. Try building your bases with some diversity of your own and maybe you won't have these problems. A new dino was introduced into the game and now some players don't know how to deal. This will sound harsh, but so what? In all games some players have issues both accepting change and adjusting their own play. Those that refuse will always have problems, and I'll bet they are in the minority. A vocal minority to be sure but still a minority. And sometimes no matter how much a few people may be annoyed it is possible they are in the wrong even when they cannot or refuse to realize it.

If there was nothing you could do to fight back against a Griffin on it's own terms then I'd agree it's OP. But it's not. Saying it is too well rounded is arguing against good design, and in a game that's just stupid. I wish all the dinos in the game were better designed. And you can't keep trying to turn dinos into MMO style cookie cutter characters that fit neatly into a rock-paper-scissors combat game. Ark is more like a FPS than it is anything else if you take into account that all players have access to the same weapons/dinos if they can find one. Players that need to have dinos strong vs one thing and weak vs another are very linear players frankly, and I'm not surprised at all that they have problems when something new comes along. But that is a player problem, not a game problem.

[ChargingParacerParacer]

Question, can Griffins be taken into boss battles?

[AngrySaltire]

18 minutes ago, ChargingParacerParacer said:

Question, can Griffins be taken into boss battles?

Doubt it as you cant take flyers into boss fights, at least on the island. Maybe into the scorched one as you can apparantly take flyers there (not sure about the Ragnarok one). Anyway cant see Griffins being good boss fighers though anyway

[ChargingParacerParacer]

Yeah it was a rhetorical question I don't even think they can fight Ragnarok bosses and even if they could they wouldn't be any more helpful in numbers as any other boss killer.  The point of my question is no Griffins aren't objectively overpowered god creatures that can decimate anything in their path. They have quite a few weak points, ca,'t be bred, and don't have saddle armor. There are plenty of land creatures that make the threats of this game just as trivial but I don't see any threads complaining about that or see devs changing those creatures 'for the health of the game.' Fact is Griffins are already fair how they are and people need to get to learning their weaknesses. Their biggest weakness is not having very good torpor.

[Z0mbie]

On 12/6/2017 at 3:02 PM, Ep1cM0nk3y said:

Definately needs a bigger cost to tame/breed or a rebalance of sorts (looking at the heath mainly, maybe add a dive meter like the rhino charge imo)..

You can only breed griffins with a mod so pretty sure they can't be bred on official.

[Z0mbie]

On 12/7/2017 at 1:11 AM, MrGerard said:

Nobody said they are not willing to adapt. The fact is that is unbalanced. 

Lets just give the Griffin lightning breath, scuba gear and harvest berries when it dive bombs so we can remove every other dino from the game.

We want diversity.!! I like that certain dinos being great at one thing and sucking at another. I don't want to outclassed in every way when up against a Griffin. And i don't like ruining everybody's day when I'm flying on one.! I can one hit a mid lvl ptera that took a guy 2 hours to tame with raw meat.

They are NOT unbalanced. Put your dinos inside already.

[Carcajou]

On 11/28/2017 at 10:39 AM, Jabroni said:

A Poison Wyvern can oneshot anyone of their tame with one Poison breath, no matter what armor they have on.

And on top of that, you automatically harvest all of their loot.

I prefere those over a Griffin any day.

I think the Balance between Wyverns and Griffins is fine, I see both used a lot. All other Flyers should get a buff though. Stop  the nerfing.

Are we talking about that slow projectile that every flyer can dodge ? Griffin just past 5 meter of your wyvern and attack and your wyvern lose 5k hp. I could not believe it last night a griffin on official did 5 k damage in one attack. When a wyvern attack it as to hit the target griffin can pass 5 to 10 meter of you and do damage. 

 

[Carcajou]

16 hours ago, Probitas said:

Griffins cannot swim. The Baryonx can swim and go on land, and it can jump. It's a raptor/sarco with stun added.....that's a heck of a lot more useful than flying in my mind. Flying is useful for covering a lot of ground and tagging beacons. I think everyone must be building bases on land all the time - try building underwater, if you guys were using your Tek engrams to do that I bet we'd never hear about Griffins. We'd be hearing about how Baryonx needs to be nerfed because spamming stun is too OP.

You have dino diversity in the game. The Griffin simply cannot take the place of all the dinos in the game....that's a huge exaggeration. You are only looking at land-based combat like there is no such thing as water-based or aerial combat. Try building your bases with some diversity of your own and maybe you won't have these problems. A new dino was introduced into the game and now some players don't know how to deal. This will sound harsh, but so what? In all games some players have issues both accepting change and adjusting their own play. Those that refuse will always have problems, and I'll bet they are in the minority. A vocal minority to be sure but still a minority. And sometimes no matter how much a few people may be annoyed it is possible they are in the wrong even when they cannot or refuse to realize it.

If there was nothing you could do to fight back against a Griffin on it's own terms then I'd agree it's OP. But it's not. Saying it is too well rounded is arguing against good design, and in a game that's just stupid. I wish all the dinos in the game were better designed. And you can't keep trying to turn dinos into MMO style cookie cutter characters that fit neatly into a rock-paper-scissors combat game. Ark is more like a FPS than it is anything else if you take into account that all players have access to the same weapons/dinos if they can find one. Players that need to have dinos strong vs one thing and weak vs another are very linear players frankly, and I'm not surprised at all that they have problems when something new comes along. But that is a player problem, not a game problem.

When someone is trying to sell you something you know make absolute no sense......

 

You like griffin as they are and since you enjoy using them you have bias. Its fine we all understand that but you have to let the other people give there opinion too.

Am personally bored with this metal and i cant wait for Aberration to remake the meta .

[ForzaProiettile]

On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 6:25 AM, TrueGoose364556 said:

I mean, I don’t know if it’s op more like border line. My only real complaint is I think it’s a bit too fast and it’s dive bomb just does a ridiculous amount of damage, but then again I think flyers just kinda out class most land Dino’s by nature, what we need is some anti-air Dino/turret who can temporaly bring flyers to the ground, this ways the flyers have more of a counter and we can see more land Dinos during raids

It is definitely OP when you compare it to the other flyers. That said you are right this game needs a proper anti air system. All we have is the useless homing rocket whose missile is too slow to be any use and in any case it self destructs after a 100m. A total waste of a weapon. 

I think part of the reasons flyers remain so dominant in this game is that they are not fragile enough. When you think of birds or aircraft you don't ever associate with them being 'tanky' due to the nature of flight of itself. Yet in this game strangely you have at least compared to many land dinos, flyers that are indeed very tanky which makes no sense in terms or balance or physics.

[Ep1cM0nk3y]

12 hours ago, Z0mbie said:

You can only breed griffins with a mod so pretty sure they can't be bred on official.

Really? Didn't know!...all sarcasm aside, It's called theory crafting,  it's implied that maybe they should lay eggs that could be found and raised (because they are incredibly strong for only costing allo egg kibble/mutton)..

[Probitas]

12 hours ago, Carcajou said:

When someone is trying to sell you something you know make absolute no sense......

 

You like griffin as they are and since you enjoy using them you have bias. Its fine we all understand that but you have to let the other people give there opinion too.

Am personally bored with this metal and i cant wait for Aberration to remake the meta .

See that's just it. Too many gamers trying to meta a win, instead of just playing the game as it is....then bitching when they can't meta the way they want. If you don't like the taste of the food, why bother eating it at all? Certainly no one needs to hear you complain about it. Heaven forbid that you play a game that you could lose at even if you do nothing wrong. Sounds so much like real life I have to wonder if this attitude is translating over from it. Do you guys try to meta game life too?

4 hours ago, Ep1cM0nk3y said:

Really? Didn't know!...all sarcasm aside, It's called theory crafting,  it's implied that maybe they should lay eggs that could be found and raised (because they are incredibly strong for only costing allo egg kibble/mutton)..

I wonder if anyone has tried to use a megalosaurus on a Griffin? Can it bite and hold it? It should be able to since it can do the same to an Argy. That's another thing, how come the mega can bite and slowly kill a Diplo, but can't do the same to something actually smaller like a Rex or Griffin as it can bite the Thorny Dragon, as they are all smaller than a Diplo, but I've been told before logic doesn't work in Online Games.....Maybe it should?

[Guy19761]

ah I wish we could breed griffins, but we can't