Mutation Stacking Questions

[DeHammer]

2 hours ago, Onimusha759 said:

Thats what i initially thought as well.  After i redid the math thanks to ariana, i found i can reduce the number of eggs I need by 25% if i didnt keep 2 separate pools for hp and dmg.  Ill do the math 1 more time for you.  Each egg has a 7% chance to have a mutation.  It picks between 7 stats(6 for fliers), so 7/7=1%.  Then the stat mutated picks between 2 parents, so 1/2=.5%.  .5x200(eggs)=100% of getting the right stat mutation on the right parents stat, give or take because rng is a ho lol.  Now if your just going for 20 mutations in both hp and dmg then your looking for 40 mutations in total.  40x200 eggs=8000 eggs.  Now say you dont keep 2 separate lines, because your doubling the amount of keepable mutation types(both dmg and hp) you halve the amount of likely needed eggs to 100 per keepable mutation.  20(Mutations to limit to create new 1s)x100 eggs=2000 eggs.  Then the last 20 you need for your total of 40 mutations youd halve your chance again because your mutated parent is unable to give new mutations, so it goes back to 1/200.  20(the remaining mutations needed)x200 eggs=4000 eggs.  4000+2000=6000.  Separate lines is 8000, together is 6000.  Really its 7900 and 5850 because the 1st mutation is twice as easy then the next 19 because both parents have the same stat.  You could go further then that though but before you would plan on that it would be best to purify your beginning stats before you do any mutations by mating a lvl 5 with 0 oxygen and movement speed points.  The reason for this is the lvl cap is 3x the highest lvl tameable wild, normally 150 so 150x3=450.  So get ride of the worthless lvls to allow you to go as far as possible.  If your tame hits 450 itll get nerfed or deleted(i forget which) and remember you can lvl up a creature 73 times, so 449-73=376.  Dont mutate past lvl 376.

Thanks for going through that rational again. Ultimately I'll probably and on a method like that as we're only looking for a quicker boost to our Rexs. So we're only looking to work in a handful of mutations. As I was going through the motions of the 'two pool' method earlier today I ended up getting a MD mutation in the HP mutation pool, and it kind of sucked realizing I'd be tossing away so many otherwise usable mutations. 

But I needed to try both ways as a learning method. 

[Cymas]

I've read through this thread multiple times, and I think I can offer an explanation of why "pro" breeders stack their stat mutations separately instead of mixing the muts with a dirty line. It has to do with stat inheritance, specifically because of the lower statistical chance of babies inheriting multiple stats at a time. So instead of going for 2 stats, you only care about one. It might suck to be culling mutations you could use on the other stat, but on the other hand you're probably hatching/culling less overall with separate lines. I'm not good enough at statistics to do all the math out myself, but it stands to reason that if it's being done that way as an accepted standard, it definitely has something to do with efficiency. No one wants to waste time in a game this grindy so it makes sense to streamline the process as much as possible. Dirty lines play against the rng more than clean ones do.

One thing that really interests me is what the optimal size of a breeding pool would be, as many as possible is the obvious answer with a lot of logistical issues. Obviously 2 males--the rotating mutated one and one clean one for backbreeding if you pop a mutation on a female. Realistically breeding 100 females and then getting a mutation on say egg #7 results in a lot of wasted time in itself if you're not playing with extremely boosted mating intervals. Plus having to get rid of all those eggs, kibble forever I guess. But still.

I'm mostly curious because for some weird reason my unofficial runs on "slightly" boosted mating intervals but they're basically vanilla, which means unless I keep a hatchery powered I can only generate a new batch of eggs once every 1-2 days. So obviously I want to get mutations as fast as possible, but wasting the breeding timers on my females is going to add up very quickly. I do think the solution is batch breeding, it's mainly a question of how many eggs per batch, and how many active females to keep for each stat.

So far my plan is to start with a breeding pool of 5 clean females per male. I know that's a little low but keeping a billion animals isn't really my style, at least not while I don't have consistent access to cryopods, and my current project is mainly a test anyway. I'll have the clean male that I can use to produce more clean females if I want to boost my numbers, also. Plus the animals in question are easy to raise so I don't need to wait for the weekend like I would with anything larger, I can just pop those eggs continually throughout the week. But as soon as I hit boss animals I'll be hitting a huge wall with those timers, which is why I want to test for it now on this less important line. Does anyone have any thoughts on this issue?

[invincibleqc]

18 minutes ago, Cymas said:

One thing that really interests me is what the optimal size of a breeding pool would be

If your male is clean (under 20 markers matrilineal + patrilineal combined), and that you are only looking to mutate one of its stat, you would ideally want to have 280 females that have 0/40 markers because you mathematically have 1/280 chance to get it.

22 minutes ago, Cymas said:

Realistically breeding 100 females and then getting a mutation on say egg #7 results in a lot of wasted time in itself if you're not playing with extremely boosted mating intervals.

You still want to hatch the remaining eggs as you still have a chance to get a double or triple mutations in the stat your are looking for. I once rolled two mutations (+4 pts) into melee on the same egg.

23 minutes ago, Cymas said:

So far my plan is to start with a breeding pool of 5 clean females per male.

By that you mean having 5 females for rolling different stats? Like having 5 females for health, and 5 for melee for example? If so, I would not recommend that. Instead I would recommend you to use your 10 females and roll for health. Once you have a new health mutation, roll for melee while your health is growing and alternate back to health once you got your melee and so on.

[Cymas]

That's where I run into the problem. Mating intervals is basically vanilla but maturation rates are boosted. So by the time the females are ready to mate again the baby has already grown up. So I'm kind of stuck using separate pools of clean females for each stat I want to mutate. Pretty sure the admins don't actually breed anything on this server lol, at least not a dedicated bloodline. Obviously this would not be feasible, keeping over 500 breeding animals for one single project. So I know it's not exactly optimal conditions.

[invincibleqc]

Just now, Cymas said:

That's where I run into the problem. Mating intervals is basically vanilla but maturation rates are boosted. So by the time the females are ready to mate again the baby has already grown up. So I'm kind of stuck using separate pools of clean females for each stat I want to mutate. Pretty sure the admins don't actually breed anything on this server lol, at least not a dedicated bloodline. Obviously this would not be feasible, keeping over 500 breeding animals for one single project. So I know it's not exactly optimal conditions.

I would recommend you to contact the owner of that server and ask them to set the breeding interval to match the maturation. I'm sure they would prefer that over you doubling your amount of creatures and draining server resources.

[Cymas]

I intend to. It's actually been brought up to them before and we were told the intervals were already boosted. Ok, but not by much when it takes 19.5 hours to grow a rex to adult, but the females can't breed for 24-30 hours...

ETA: I brought it up, the answer is the server owner is afraid of excess breeding so kept the intervals high. Now we all just keep excess animals instead to get around the timers...

[TheBlastMage]

I keep seeing the argument over having 1 super mutated dino vs having separated lines for each stat.  The last breeding video I watched suggested to keep 1 super dino and had fairly convincing agruments for that based on the reasoning that your dinos will eventually go over 20/20 on the father's side so why throw out useful stat increases?

Has anyone run the numbers to determine which path is faster or more successful in producing high level mutations?  I've been studying up on all of this but have yet been able to put together the time to actually test it.

[invincibleqc]

1 minute ago, TheBlastMage said:

I keep seeing the argument over having 1 super mutated dino vs having separated lines for each stat.  The last breeding video I watched suggested to keep 1 super dino and had fairly convincing agruments for that based on the reasoning that your dinos will eventually go over 20/20 on the father's side so why throw out useful stat increases?

Has anyone run the numbers to determine which path is faster or more successful in producing high level mutations?  I've been studying up on all of this but have yet been able to put together the time to actually test it.

I did both way, and I can assure you that you will progress way faster if you keep your markers clean and avoid ghost markers for the first 20 mutations. After that, you will also progress way faster by not combining your mutated stats because you will spend more time trying to re-inject all the other stats your newly mutated baby didn't inherit from your male.

[DeHammer]

48 minutes ago, TheBlastMage said:

Has anyone run the numbers to determine which path is faster or more successful in producing high level mutations?  I've been studying up on all of this but have yet been able to put together the time to actually test it.

I think a lot depends on your goals. For us, we only want a faster injection of a few mutations into our Rex line. So the 'dirty' method is faster for that as you're able to maximize acceptance of new babies. With the 'dirty' method your new dinos all have the correct stats each birth, meaning you won't have to throw out any desired mutations because the new male baby you just hatched had clean moms lower stats inherited. But you get the speed at the cost of unnecessary mutation counter ticks stacking up quickly. 

Since I'm keeping a set of clean breeder to start a new process at any time, I don't mind cranking out some 'dirty' dinos to meet a short term goal. 

[Onimusha759]

On 4/29/2019 at 12:42 PM, DeHammer said:

I think a lot depends on your goals. For us, we only want a faster injection of a few mutations into our Rex line. So the 'dirty' method is faster for that as you're able to maximize acceptance of new babies. With the 'dirty' method your new dinos all have the correct stats each birth, meaning you won't have to throw out any desired mutations because the new male baby you just hatched had clean moms lower stats inherited. But you get the speed at the cost of unnecessary mutation counter ticks stacking up quickly. 

Since I'm keeping a set of clean breeder to start a new process at any time, I don't mind cranking out some 'dirty' dinos to meet a short term goal. 

Hey dude, i just realized my math was off.  I didnt calculate the chance of the 2nd mutated stat failing to be pass to the baby which doubles eggs needed under ALL circumstances involving impure lines.  You definitely want  pure dmg line and a pure hp line separate from 1 another.

[SnowboundGem]

On 4/23/2019 at 2:33 AM, Kodking194 said:

i musty warn you about something with stacking separate colour/stat mutations together from the mutated parents. for those of who know not every creature takes up all the colour regions like thylas they only have 3/6 of the co,our regions, as where from my knowledge argents have 5/6 colour regions, now if you did not know this every mutation comes with a stat and colour, the colour only appears depending on what region the colour landed on, so with a thyla if it landed on region 6 it would not appear on the thyla as it has no region 6. now to get to the point if you are going to breed where both parents have a different mutation, BTY i am going to use thylas as my example cause i have bred loads of time with them. say i breed one male containing a cyan back stripe and a health mutation with a female with a red main body with a melee mutation. i will be able to get both those mutations on the next generation,  now if i then breed the offspring with a thyla with a black belly and a weight mutation i will be able to also transfer that mutation to another generation. if i breed the thyla with those three mutations with a thyla that has a stamina mutation but no visible colour then the colour has landed on a nonexistent region on the thyla like region 6. i can keep stacking mutations until the game thinks that all colour regions are filled with a colour then the game will drastically reduce if not prevent the next baby from having another mutation from another parent. this can greatly slow down the mutation gathering process. a better way which i have learnt from the great you-tuber syntac is another more efficient way to stack mutations. first of all have two thylas (i am using thylas as example) with the stats you want. so i tamed two males one with great health the other with great melee. i also have 2 females, one with great weight and one with great stam, after breeding them to get all four stats stacked onto two thylas male and female most preferably twins so they are identical. HOT TIP: you should name them perfect thyla  or perfect argent or perfect Rex you get the idea. breed them together until you get a likable colour mutation which will be a cyan main body  and a health mutation for me. HOT TIP: you can use the off spring to increase your baby production increasing the likely hood of mutations, if you are going to do this then label them like this "perfect thyla F1 or perfect thyla M1, F1 and M1 stand for female 1 and male 1. so my cyan mutation thyla is a male so i am going to breed it with its mum, now it sounds weird but it works when i get to how you will stack the mutations. so the parents of the mutated thylas are 250 and the mutated baby is 252 then a baby with two mutations is going to be 254. so breed the two thylas until you get a 254 thyla with another mutation added to it that you like, for me it will be a red underbelly and another health mutation. keep in mind every mutation you get for a single stats is the same so for a thylas health off the top of my head i think it is 150 added to the health per mutation. just keep this method going till you cant get anymore mutations. if you end up with a female mutated thyla use the male perfect thyla. HOT TIP: if you get a baby with a cool colour mutation but a useless stat mutation likr food or oxygen just dispose of it because trust me you can get a better stat mutation with the colour or even a better colour. this method also allows you to bred for the specific colours you desire on your finale product like for me it is cyan and red that i breed for. also keep in mind speed mutations are useless, every mutation comes with a stats mutation that can land on any stat but if it lands on speed it is a wasted mutation as it does not increase the speed from my experience  so again dispose of it to get a better mutation.

hope this helps with your endeavors on breeding and if you would like breeding tutorials visit syntac's channel on YouTube as i love watching this guys for help when breeding.

PS: if breeding with egg animals collect a bunch of eggs and hatch bout 3 eggs at a time it really helps rather then hatching one egg every time it is laid.

please leave a like if this helped as i am thinking of making a forum with breeding tips and info for those who need it and the more likes i get then the more i will consider making the forum

I too watch syntac which helped me no end to fully understand breeding. When I see it written it's just words but seeing and hearing makes me understand it better.

Also 100% followed everything you said. I always kill off the useless stats and only ever keep the stamina, weight, health and melee depending what I'm breeding. 

Sometimes I forget about the missing regions hence no colour mut.

[Kodking194]

On 6/9/2019 at 6:55 AM, SnowboundGem said:

I too watch syntac which helped me no end to fully understand breeding. When I see it written it's just words but seeing and hearing makes me understand it better.

Also 100% followed everything you said. I always kill off the useless stats and only ever keep the stamina, weight, health and melee depending what I'm breeding. 

Sometimes I forget about the missing regions hence no colour mut.

u can will always get a colour and stat mutation, but if it lands on a dormant region for a creature it wont show up. it took a while for me to realise this.

[SnowboundGem]

7 minutes ago, Kodking194 said:

u can will always get a colour and stat mutation, but if it lands on a dormant region for a creature it wont show up. it took a while for me to realise this.

I know that ? I get rid of muts with stats that go into oxygen or anything else I'm not breeding for regardless of colour. I knew about the dormant colour regions etc but have a tendancy to forget which Dino's have missing regions. I'm just not bothered about breeding for colour until I'm ready to merge all stats to my last Dinos.

 

[Kodking194]

yeah, i usually breed two of each species, one for colour to put in my museum, which again i was inspired to do because of syntac, and second a stat tame, i still add colours to the stat one but only if they come with good stats.