Chieftain Hat - Cultural Misappropriation?

[Jtmorris]

12 minutes ago, ehuhoser said:

Basically no, it should not be something to be offended with.  Heritage is something not to be ashamed with, history is not to be ashamed with, but learning from mistakes and not using that gained knowledge to repeat those same mistakes is.  I won't say what you had for intentions when you first posted, I won't say anything along the lines because to do so I would have to step inside your brain and reason with it to gain your perspective.  I simply won't do that for anyone.

Generally the world today is generally an uptight one.  Suing, finding ways to be offended with some people (not saying you are OP), jumping on bandwagons to gain social appeal seems to be the way for many.  I'm not saying the OP was trying to do anything but bring out the curious nature of what people might see but not say but again I'm not the OP so I will simply say I see what you might be hinting at or try to understand from your perspective.

Now am I offended, nope, and never even crossed my mind to be offensive.  From both sides of my family I have native blood running through my body.  In fact I'm descendant from the very first encounters with Natives and English travelers looking for a new freedom.  More pure blood lines might be offended based on their life experiences, but I think it comes down to who they are as a person and what their goal is not just native but also any person for that matter.  Anyway back to point, I'm sorry for the long winded-ness of my post.  

I think what our life experiences, our history, our upbringing, etc make up who we are and what we believe to be offensive, allow for thinner skin instead of thicker; the area in which we live, and thus, makes for good debates to what can be new social acceptable ideas.  Just as we have calm ideology discussions, also spawns passionate discussions.  A winded post to basically say no right .  @Jtmorris I think you was honestly curious about a symbol in a game.  I don't think you had an intentions to make WC seem disrespectful to natives or any other party as well.  I think that many jumped a little too quickly to assume what you were saying into what you was meaning.  From my perspective, I can only say that I find it hard to be offensive on many things, but that is what is hard about today, and what bandwagon we jump on.  I think that I cannot be offended by something that I have no history with or empathize with.  As an example.  I have native blood in me, but my life experiences vs a true native is vastly different.  Does that mean that I can be offended easily with native culture misused?  I don't think so.  I respect but I cannot jump on that bandwagon of those who might be offended because I myself, are not them, which brings me to why I stated life experiences, upbringing etc matters a lot.  On symbols I look what feeling and images it gains vs what is actually there.   Again I cannot speak for anyone but myself.

Well said! 

[UDGxKnight]

The fact that the main concern in this world is wether or not we offend someone is just sad. People should never purposely make someone feel bad about themselves for any reason culture or life choices, but you should also not be a complete wimp about life either. People aren't going to agree with your opinions 100% of the time and that is good because conflict leads to progress as a society in the long run. However, unnecessary conflict as in saying someones culture/race is lower and not as good as yours is in no way productive and is just hate propagated by stupid teachings of history and parents indoctrinating children into their beliefs and their parents beliefs and so on. That being said, this is one reason I think history shouldn't be taught at all because people use past actions as "leverage" for their arguments today relating to social injustices and todays social injustices should in no way be related to the same issues from 100 years ago since that just means we have made no progress as a society. 

As for this headdress deal. If I was Native American or any other culture who wore these headdresses  as a part of our society I would be happy to see others sharing in our culture instead of thinking that any mention of our culture outside of our own is inherently racist or prejudice. It is just an unnecessary line of thinking to think that someone would be offended by a headdress in a game that has no ties to said culture you think is being offended. Now if their were racial/prejudice jokes or making fun of the culture that would be controversial. Most Asian cultures absolutely adore when people from other countries try to take part of their culture as long as they aren't being offensive and I would like to think Native Americans, or whomever these headdresses could relate to, think the same way.

[OGCookies]

10 minutes ago, Jtmorris said:

And what "statement" exactly are you talking about? I didn't state anything (reading compression dude...) 

Please explain how your opening post was not a statement? As well as every post there after?

I do have to hand it to you your attempt to play with words is a good one but a failure non the less

I especially like when you say we were "taken back" instead of offended so you could later say "i did not say i was offended" maybe you should stop throwing your wife under the bus and come up with an opinion of your own to post about and things might a lot more clear for everyone

state·ment

ˈstātmənt/

noun

 

1. a definite or clear expression of something in speech or writing.

    

    

    

    

    

[mronemanmob]

 

6 minutes ago, UDGxKnight said:

Most Asian cultures absolutely adore when people from other countries try to take part of their culture

weeaboos

[UDGxKnight]

1 minute ago, mronemanmob said:

 

weeaboos

Now that I have no comment about lol, they are supporting the culture but honestly I feel like they are being offensive without realizing it since Anime is 80% of the time nothing like real Asian society.

Realizing after typing that I might have an opinion actually and I am just gonna leave it like that X D

[Jtmorris]

14 minutes ago, OGCookies said:

Please explain how your opening post was not a statement? As well as every post there after?

I do have to hand it to you your attempt to play with words is a good one but a failure non the less

I especially like when you say we were "taken back" instead of offended so you could later say "i did not say i was offended" maybe you should stop throwing your wife under the bus and come up with an opinion of your own to post about and things might a lot more clear for everyone

state·ment

ˈstātmənt/

noun

 

1. a definite or clear expression of something in speech or writing.

    

    

    

    

    

Lol oh man. I can't even.... 

[OGCookies]

Just now, Jtmorris said:

Lol oh man. I can't even.... 

My guess is you run into that problem a lot

[Sestock]

If you are wondering whether or not you should be offended, chances are, you aren't offended.

[Shrekasaurus]

I really don't think anyone should be offended. Anyone that gets triggered by feather hats doesn't deserve to be on the internet. I'm Italian, my friends always make fun of Italian accents and I don't give a flying dilo, It's actually funny. My friends and I love to make fun of each others heritage and culture/religion and we have a blast. Again, a feather hat in a game about mysterious islands with prehistoric/mythical creatures shouldn't offend anybody...........EVER!!!!!!!!. There, that's my opinion. 

[Ranger1]

JT, it's likely you're actually getting a bit of backlash from many of the US members on this forum.

Currently there is a lot of frustration among many, including myself, with the ridiculous levels of political correctness that has been shoveled down our throats over the last few years.  This last election has brought a lot of those frustrations to a boil.  Well, to be fully honest, this isn't just something restricted to the United States either.

While you may not have intended it that way, many times conversations that start out exactly as your OP did have immediately turned into accusations of racism... and worse.  The result is that many people are so sick of constantly defending themselves that they are pretty defensive when the conversation seems to start heading down that path.

Although it may be hard to discern, the subtext in this thread is that there is a strong sense of respect for native americans and their culture... but the suggestion that even the video game depiction of an item of headgear resembling something they wore could be somehow inappropriate generates a strong backlash.  Not against native american culture... but rather against a society where forcing the cancellation of Yoga classes run by a volunteer, or harassing a teen for choosing to wear dreads, is considered a reasonable course of action.  A society where voicing a different opinion is met with insults, shouted down, and publicly humiliated.  All of this in a country that used to celebrate the diverse culture of it's citizens by learning from and sharing that culture with each other, instead of restricting it to only those of a select group... often against the desires of the culture in question.

I personally am willing to accept your assertion that it was an innocent question instead of a veiled accusation, but understand that right now peoples nerves are more than a little raw on the subject.

[Jtmorris]

4 minutes ago, ranger1presents said:

JT, it's likely you're actually getting a bit of backlash from many of the US members on this forum.

Currently there is a lot of frustration among many, including myself, with the ridiculous levels of political correctness that has been shoveled down our throats over the last few years.  This last election has brought a lot of those frustrations to a boil.  Well, to be fully honest, this isn't just something restricted to the United States either.

While you may not have intended it that way, many times conversations that start out exactly as your OP did have immediately turned into accusations of racism... and worse.  The result is that many people are so sick of constantly defending themselves that they are pretty defensive when the conversation seems to start heading down that path.

Although it may be hard to discern, the subtext in this thread is that there is a strong sense of respect for native americans and their culture... but the suggestion that even the video game depiction of an item of headgear resembling something they wore could be somehow inappropriate generates a strong backlash.  Not against native american culture... but rather against a society where forcing the cancellation of Yoga classes run by a volunteer, or harassing a teen for choosing to wear dreads, is considered a reasonable course of action.  A society where voicing a different opinion is met with insults, shouted down, and publicly humiliated.  All of this in a country that used to celebrate the diverse culture of it's citizens by learning from and sharing that culture with each other, instead of restricting it to only those of a select group... often against the desires of the culture in question.

I personally am willing to accept your assertion that it was an innocent question instead of a veiled accusation, but understand that right now peoples nerves are more than a little raw on the subject.

Very insightful. That makes a lot of sense. 

[Smash]

  You've run into problems with this thread because gamers have been under assault from SJWs (not saying you are one) and are fairly sick of being told they're bad people because of their particular brand of escapism.  Honestly, it's fairly understandable.  I got crucified on Facebook the other day because I disagreed with an article that has the premise that gaming culture was not inclusive and was even termed 'Not safe'.  I feel a fair amount of vitriol for anyone who lives in a western nation who claims that they don't feel safe playing with plastic miniatures because the person opposite them doesn't believe in 65 genders. 

But I digress.  Cultural appropriation is just made up nonsense.  95% of the issues that are raised as cultural appropriation are harmless and the other 5% don't need the fake label because racism works well enough.  I mean it's ironic that anyone who identifies as a minority has the audacity to come online and complain about cultural appropriation while using a device who's origins are steeped in white culture.  Almost all works of art or literature basically borrow from somewhere else.  As a certain free speech icon often says:  "These people have never read a book!"

[TranqRex]

39 minutes ago, Smash said:

But I digress.  Cultural appropriation is just made up nonsense.  95% of the issues that are raised as cultural appropriation are harmless and the other 5% don't need the fake label because racism works well enough. 

I don't think it's necessarily 'made up nonsense' despite my agreement with you on the horrendous and ironic misuse of it by most of these SJW clowns. I think it's been given a bit of a fancy name that doesn't help when people are using it in arguments. I can see what it conveys when used in the specific circumstance of the definition - I can even sort of see what lead @Jtmorris's thought process, no matter how flawed and ultimately ridiculous I think it was.

My problem with this kind of thing is how it's been handled. I've always been taught that if I have a problem or question with someone or something to go and talk to who/whatever it is first and make sure it is what I think it is. In this particular example, if I was of Native American heritage (and I'm not - a clear indication this is really none of my business) or even had any kind of tribal roots from any continent and felt a little uneasy, then I'd have first of all sent a message to the WC staff on here, privately. There's no need to make a scene and try to get everyone's pitchforks at the ready (I'm not suggesting that was your intention, OP, just merely stating that's how it can be seen).

[Jerryn]

Please try to debate the topic without the personal attacks.

There is no need for name calling or insults.  Debate the points, not your assumptions about the person that makes those points.

I am letting some of the borderline stuff stay, but I am hiding the recent personal attacks and responses to them.  And, I highly recommend that they do not reappear after this point.

Also, moving this to Off Topic, as this has not been on topic since the second post, and has become more of a philospohical 'discussion', when barbs aren't being thrown.

[cvndlz]

I personally feel like it's not an incredibly big deal.

I also view cultural appropriation as a petty subject to attack others over (or even bring to light), as I believe anyone has any right to dress and appear as they wish. If that wasn't the case, we'd have to witchhunt trans and others that were taking upon looks/styles that they were originally never intended to don themselves with. (obviously symbols of hate are frowned upon and are dealt with on their own terms)

But as long as it is in good fun, like I said, I really don't see it as a big deal.

If they made you slaughter tribes of Native Americans to gain the hat of a chieftain then I could see your point.. But, it was just Turkeys.

edit-

Skimmed through more replies from you and others, and noticed you mention neither yourself or your wife are Native Americans..

I always sigh when people bring "cultural appropriation" up when in reality they have not been experiencing it themselves.. If Native Americans had issues with this, I'm sure the devs would've already had an earfull and would have dropped the item quicker than spit. It seems obvious that most who have replied, that claim to be Native Americans, do not find any harm in this.

So I must ask, why was she REALLY taken back by this? This clearly had no connection to her personally, so was there such a need to feel that concerned over something as small as pixels displayed in a game?

[OGCookies]

53 minutes ago, cvndlz said:

I personally feel like it's not an incredibly big deal.

I also view cultural appropriation as a petty subject to attack others over (or even bring to light), as I believe anyone has any right to dress and appear as they wish. If that wasn't the case, we'd have to witchhunt trans and others that were taking upon looks/styles that they were originally never intended to don themselves with. (obviously symbols of hate are frowned upon and are dealt with on their own terms)

But as long as it is in good fun, like I said, I really don't see it as a big deal.

If they made you slaughter tribes of Native Americans to gain the hat of a chieftain then I could see your point.. But, it was just Turkeys.

edit-

Skimmed through more replies from you and others, and noticed you mention neither yourself or your wife are Native Americans..

I always sigh when people bring "cultural appropriation" up when in reality they have not been experiencing it themselves.. If Native Americans had issues with this, I'm sure the devs would've already had an earfull and would have dropped the item quicker than spit. It seems obvious that most who have replied, that claim to be Native Americans, do not find any harm in this.

So I must ask, why was she REALLY taken back by this? This clearly had no connection to her personally, so was there such a need to feel that concerned over something as small as pixels displayed in a game?

Well said, unfortunately this is the world we live in today people cant help themselves to worry about non sense that has absolutely nothing to do with them most likely out of boredom, to try and stir emotions and start an issue. The title of this thread alone says how much of a joke this is 

[cvndlz]

1 hour ago, OGCookies said:

Well said, unfortunately this is the world we live in today people cant help themselves to worry about non sense that has absolutely nothing to do with them most likely out of boredom, to try and stir emotions and start an issue. The title of this thread alone says how much of a joke this is 

The first time I learned of cultural appropriation was when I saw a video of two African Americans harrassing a Caucasian man for his choice of dreading his hair.

He went as far as to reference the fact that as part of his Nordic heritage, it was acceptable for him to wear such a hairstyle and he wasn't trying to "appropriate" anything but just simply wear his hair in a fashion that he thought was cool, and interesting in his own sense.

Honestly, if I was in his position, I wouldn't have even felt inclined to give them a response but as you have said as well, kids are worried about such nonsense nowadays that I personally believe there's just no reason to bother.

[Jtmorris]

7 hours ago, OGCookies said:

Well said, unfortunately this is the world we live in today people cant help themselves to worry about non sense that has absolutely nothing to do with them most likely out of boredom, to try and stir emotions and start an issue. The title of this thread alone says how much of a joke this is 

Buddy, give it a rest. You have trumpeted your disdain already. Thanks, we get it. Take your own advice - stop worrying about this topic you deem nonsense that has absolutely nothing to do with you. If you are bored, stop trying to stir emotions and start an issue here. There is humor in the irony. Move along. 

[m4Marci]

Lol wow. just wow.

[Chris]

This thread thoroughly entertained me and it was a great read! A good back and forth (for the most part). 

However I am going to close this thread so that it doesn't get out of hand as I'm sure everyone has said their piece.