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Kibble Rework Beta Feedback

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51 minutes ago, theASCHE360 said:

The wiki is not accurate and is wrong about more than a handful of the dinos, like the egg recipes such as titanaboa eggs creating the extraordinary/special kibble, or compy's preferring basic kibble when in reality they don't prefer any kibble at all.

Edited by NeddyTheNoodle

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51 minutes ago, theASCHE360 said:

The new kibble recipes are incredibly arduous and tedious. Citronal+rare mushroom+prime meat+sap just for argie tier kibble? Actual food recipes for 2 kibble tiers? What the hell are the devs thinking? I don't think I'll be playing until they release a "Classic Kibbles" mod do undo this stupidity.

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18 hours ago, girlygirlgamer322 said:

The new kibble recipes are incredibly arduous and tedious. Citronal+rare mushroom+prime meat+sap just for argie tier kibble? Actual food recipes for 2 kibble tiers? What the hell are the devs thinking? I don't think I'll be playing until they release a "Classic Kibbles" mod do undo this stupidity.

This information was available from the first day of the beta, with discussions on the use of recipe based food items in kibble making earlier in the thread.

Also, for the record, Argie kibble as it is in vanilla uses both Citronal and Prime jerky.

I do not consider rare mushrooms particularly difficult to obtain, though I am not as certain regarding the use of sap. As I have stated earlier, I am neutral on the food recipes.

 

Also, thank you for your work, @NeddyTheNoodle, it is greatly appreciated by the rest of us! 

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4 hours ago, Eldar Seer said:

This information was available from the first day of the beta, with discussions on the use of recipe based food items in kibble making earlier in the thread.

 

Great. I already knew that.

 

4 hours ago, Eldar Seer said:

This information was available from the first day of the beta, with discussions on the use of recipe based food items in kibble making earlier in the thread.

Also, for the record, Argie kibble as it is in vanilla uses both Citronal and Prime jerky.

I also knew that. Now in addition to that it takes rare mushroom and sap.

 

4 hours ago, Eldar Seer said:

 

I do not consider rare mushrooms particularly difficult to obtain, though I am not as certain regarding the use of sap. As I have stated earlier, I am neutral on the food recipes.

 

Look, there's literally nothing difficult about this game. All you need is time, patience and grinding.  If anything at all, PvP takes some skill. But for PvE, it's an easy, low skill game that just requires a lot of time and some learning. 

 

The point is that it doesn't matter that mushrooms or sap aren't "difficult" to obtain, it's that they are a pain in the butt  to have to harvest over and over again just for kibble. I think the current recipes for kibble are perfect-1 crop, prime meat jerky, egg water fiber/berry. That's plenty. There is zero good reason to add things like sap, mushroom, and recipes to that.

 

I have no idea why the devs think making kibble harder and more strenuous to take is a good idea. Nobody asked for it and people aren't going to enjoy it. Is the logic "We just made kibble farms smaller by cutting content out of the game, let's make it up by making a kibble a pain in the butt to craft"? Sad, but not surprising I suppose.

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1 hour ago, girlygirlgamer322 said:

Great. I already knew that.

...

Apologies, the timing and content of your post implied otherwise.

As for the rest, what you are doing is making a case that more mechanics need overhauling, especially PvE combat. Which, for the record, I do agree with- PvE combat in the game is extremely simplistic, mounted PvE combat even more so.

What you are conveniently leaving out of your argument re: recipes is that those recipes require a single, specific tame's eggs. This is by far the most time consuming and "grindy" aspect, as there is jack poop you can do to get more of these aside from taming lots of useless/undesired, low level dinos of that specific type.. and then you still need to sit around and wait. And if you need, say, bronto or giga based kibble? Whelp, hope you have *lots* of space.

Also, myself and others have already outlined at considerable length why content is not being cut from the game. 

 

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10 minutes ago, Eldar Seer said:

Apologies, the timing and content of your post implied otherwise.

As for the rest, what you are doing is making a case that more mechanics need overhauling, especially PvE combat. Which, for the record, I do agree with- PvE combat in the game is extremely simplistic, mounted PvE combat even more so.

What you are conveniently leaving out of your argument re: recipes is that those recipes require a single, specific tame's eggs. This is by far the most time consuming and "grindy" aspect, as there is jack poop you can do to get more of these aside from taming lots of useless/undesired, low level dinos of that specific type.. and then you still need to sit around and wait. And if you need, say, bronto or giga based kibble? Whelp, hope you have *lots* of space.

Also, myself and others have already outlined at considerable length why content is not being cut from the game. 

 

I wasn't arguing for more content to be added. My point again was that the new kibble recipies aren't about being "difficult" but rather that they are even more tedious and time consuming-that's how Ark works. Making it even more tedious to make kibble is just frustrating. 

The species you need to tame is irrelevant-at some point you will have every vdinosaur you need to make eggs for kibble, and the process becomes bottlenecked by crops and  jerky. Now that we have extra ingredients and recipes involved, even when you get to the point of having all dinosaurs, kibble farming is going to be even more tedious and time consuming.

 

12 minutes ago, Eldar Seer said:

 

Also, myself and others have already outlined at considerable length why content is not being cut from the game. 

 

Please show me the posts that discuss this and I'll be happy to prove you wrong. There has been plenty of discussion that has proved otherwise.

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6 hours ago, girlygirlgamer322 said:

I wasn't arguing for more content to be added. My point again was that the new kibble recipies aren't about being "difficult" but rather that they are even more tedious and time consuming-that's how Ark works. Making it even more tedious to make kibble is just frustrating. 

The species you need to tame is irrelevant-at some point you will have every vdinosaur you need to make eggs for kibble, and the process becomes bottlenecked by crops and  jerky. Now that we have extra ingredients and recipes involved, even when you get to the point of having all dinosaurs, kibble farming is going to be even more tedious and time consuming.

 

Please show me the posts that discuss this and I'll be happy to prove you wrong. There has been plenty of discussion that has proved otherwise.

Unfortunately, you're in the minority with your opinions about kibble. Whether or not you want to rage at other people for liking the new kibble system is besides the point. This change is going to go into effect, the devs arent going to go out of their way to include the old system, and so you'll just have to install a mod that comes out at some point that uses the old system.

 

Please stop arguing with people in this section since it's specifically centered around feedback for the kibble rework. Thanks.

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1 hour ago, NeddyTheNoodle said:

Unfortunately, you're in the minority with your opinions about kibble. Whether or not you want to rage at other people for liking the new kibble system is besides the point. This change is going to go into effect, the devs arent going to go out of their way to include the old system, and so you'll just have to install a mod that comes out at some point that uses the old system.

 

Please stop arguing with people in this section since it's specifically centered around feedback for the kibble rework. Thanks.

I'm not in the minority, there are thousands of people who don't post on these forums and play the game, and have been enjoying the current kibble system for years. There have been a number of people who dislike the new changes and are voicing there dissatisfaction on the forums.

 

I never raged at anybody for liking the new kibble system. You're putting words in my mouth in an attempt to make me look bad just because you disagree with me. I, and others will continue debating and discussing the new kibble system right here because it's the correct place to do so.

 

1 hour ago, NeddyTheNoodle said:

Also, myself and others have already outlined at considerable length why content is not being cut from the game. 

Still waiting for you to show me this, unless you were just fabricating a lie.

Edited by girlygirlgamer322

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I have a life outside this thread, and may not be able to respond immediately at all times. Shocking, I know, but I would expect you to understand that given that neither of us has a particularly high post count. 

That being said, we directly discussed this So let me throw those words right back at you, because I doubt you "forgot" what we discussed not long ago. 

Link

As you were the main user arguing that this rework would cut content, the responses to your post should contain it. It is late my time, so this will have to do.

Also, going from what I see on here and Reddit, there really is not much support for the old kibble for the reasons that have been outlined in this thread. 

Edited by Eldar Seer

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13 hours ago, girlygirlgamer322 said:

I'm not in the minority, there are thousands of people who don't post on these forums and play the game, and have been enjoying the current kibble system for years. There have been a number of people who dislike the new changes and are voicing there dissatisfaction on the forums.

 

I never raged at anybody for liking the new kibble system. You're putting words in my mouth in an attempt to make me look bad just because you disagree with me. I, and others will continue debating and discussing the new kibble system right here because it's the correct place to do so.

 

Still waiting for you to show me this, unless you were just fabricating a lie.

Apologies for saying that you're raging at people, and I retract that statement. Now, you said something that was a terrible argument which was that:

"there are thousands of people who don't post on these forums and play the game, and have been enjoying the current kibble system for years".

This fact has literally no bearing on whether or not they're open to the change, or they dislike it. I honestly have no idea why you'd point out how lots of people are fine with the kibble system right now, when that is completely independent of whether or not they will like the new system.

If you tell me that an update is coming out for a game that revamps a system within the game, and my response is that "there are already a bunch of people who don't post on the forums that like how the game is right now", that statement literally has no meaning. Just because someone already likes how something is, that doesn't mean they won't like if that thing is changed, or they will like if that thing is changed. That is dependent on whether or not they like said change.

Now, let me point out most of your arguments relating to the kibble system are terrible. Your main argument is that the kibble system is removing content, and the reason it's bad is because it's removing content, not something external. Firstly we have to both agree on the definition of content. I would define content in a game as anything that the player can actually theoretically discover by themselves, without having to be told about. For example, I wouldn't consider a string of code that tells the game to do something in the background that nobody will ever be able to notice- as content, but I would consider a dinosaur, or a map, or the kibble system, as content. Now that we can both agree on content, we can get to why your argument is bad. Simply because content is being removed is not a good enough reason for saying that it's a bad thing. Content being removed could be both bad and good in your worldview, so simply because content is being removed, that isn't grounds for telling you why it's bad. If that were the case, then removing content in ANY capacity would be bad.

Respond to each of my arguments in depth if you want to keep this up.

Edited by NeddyTheNoodle
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On that note, I had some thoughts I wanted to comment on regarding the recent updates to the beta. 

First, extraordinary kibble. Going off of Noodle's work, it seems the eggs which offer it are golden Hesperornis, Rock Drake, and Wyvern eggs, with Titanoboa eggs being relegated to large (superior) status. Assuming that the old test data we used for feedback was not borked in someway, this represents a sidegrade I'm not entirely sure I'm comfortable with. Let's face it, golden hesperornis eggs are a pain, since they require 25 fish (may be wrong, I've never tamed them due to distaste for their mechanics and thus used the wiki) before they can lay a golden egg. This means you would need approximately 375 fish eaten before you can tame a 150 Thylacoleo. On Scorched Earth and Aberration, obtaining Extraordinary kibble is far easier past a certain progression point- low level wyvern and rock drake eggs can be sacrificed to make kibble. Extinction, which lacks either resource, is in the same boat as The Island in this regard, with the flipside of not having nearly as much water for Hesperornis to hunt in. 

This means both the "starting" and "endgame" maps (from an ascension standpoint) have more difficulty obtaining the top tier kibble. While the former may make some sense (The only Island creatures which take it being Thylacoleos and megalanias), it's somewhat odd for the endgame map to have more difficulty obtaining this resource which I assume will be used in imprinting as well as for taming than the tow "mid game" maps. 

There is also extra large eggs having only one representative (basilisk) which is not a kibble tame, and it is exclusive to one specific DLC map. Not sure how to comment, honestly. All the creatures in this tier are really good, end-game and/or boss fight tames for the most part, and I can see why any of them shifting down a level in kibble preference but not egg size might be a problem. Perhaps bump oviraptor into the tier, since most will want at least one anyway for the effect it gives? Not really sure what to do here, honestly, but I feel it does need an "entry" tame that will give the eggs that most will tame and use anyway.  I would also possibly suggest bumping Anky eggs up to large as a suggestion, since that gives a very obvious path into that particular tier. 

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1 hour ago, NeddyTheNoodle said:

Also, myself and others have already outlined at considerable length why content is not being cut from the game. 

First we've established that this was an outright lie.

 

Second, you're just getting into semantics about who likes the new kibble system and who doesn't. Obviously people on this forum represent a vocal minority, that goes for both sides of the argument.  We don't have any definite numbers for either side of the argument. The bottom line is that there are a lot of people who strongly dislike the new kibble system, and wildcard can appeal to both sides by simply giving a server option to retain the old kibble system.

3 hours ago, NeddyTheNoodle said:

 

Now, let me point out most of your arguments relating to the kibble system are terrible. Your main argument is that the kibble system is removing content, and the reason it's bad is because it's removing content, not something external. Firstly we have to both agree on the definition of content. I would define content in a game as anything that the player can actually theoretically discover by themselves, without having to be told about. For example, I wouldn't consider a string of code that tells the game to do something in the background that nobody will ever be able to notice- as content, but I would consider a dinosaur, or a map, or the kibble system, as content.

 

That's not what game content its. Game content can be anywhere from extra NPCs and new maps, to different crafting systems, or new ways to craft armor/weapons/food. It could even be skill trees or progression mechanics like Skyrim's skill/shout system. I definitely agree that the kibble system itself is content-imagine what the game would be like without kibble. We'd be lacking a lot of game content. 

4 hours ago, NeddyTheNoodle said:

Now that we can both agree on content, we can get to why your argument is bad. Simply because content is being removed is not a good enough reason for saying that it's a bad thing. Content being removed could be both bad and good in your worldview, so simply because content is being removed, that isn't grounds for telling you why it's bad. If that were the case, then removing content in ANY capacity would be bad.

Respond to each of my arguments in depth if you want to keep this up.

I'm going to explain to you why, in this case, removing game content is a terrible direction for this game and is a terribly shady way of patching content out of a game that people paid for, years ago.

 

First, why do we have kibble at all? Why not just let us tame everything in 30 minutes with raw meat and mejoberries? Because it adds interesting, challenging game content and rewards players for doing a bit of work by taming weaker dinosaurs, breeding them, and then allowing us to tame strong dinosaurs-otherwise difficult to tame-easily with the kibble we worked so hard to make. That's much better than letting everyone insta-tame gigas and run around them. Anyone will agree with that.

 

The new kibble system A) destroys any type of progression in taming animals whatsoever and

 

B) Directly and indirectly cuts out the incentive to explore more than half the entire map and interact with most of it's content. This is the main gripe I and others have about it.

 

A) New kibble system destroys any type of progression in taming animals whatsoever

Before if you wanted to tame a difficult tame like Spinosaurus, you could start by taming Stegosaurus (a very easy tame), breed them for kibble used for Argentavis, then easily tame an few argies, breed them for kibble, and then easily tame a high stat spinosaurus. Alternatively of course you could try  to tame a spinosaurus with raw meat.

With the new kibble system, say you are new to the game or you are on a new server, or you don't have any Spino-tier dinosaurs. If you want to kibble tame a spino now, you now must tame multiple brontosaurus, rex, gigas, or therizinosarus without kibble. This is because dinosaurs now only accept kibble from their own tier dinosaurs! It doesn't matter how many lower tier dinosaurs you put effort into taming-there is now zero progression through the kibble system. There are no interconnecting steps. We're going to have to tame multiple high tier species with berries or raw meat in order to effectively tame anything in their tier. This is a terribly thought out game mechanic, nobody wants to have to berry tame a therizinosaurus or tame a giga with raw meat. And now you have extra high tier dinosaurs with poopty stats that you only use for breeding until you tame about 5-10 high tier dinosaurs. Again, any sense of progression is lost with the new kibble system.

 

Another example is that now you have to tame Megalania to get kibble for thylacoleo or griffin-and the catch is that you will have to tame multiple megalania without kibble in order to do so. In the first kibble system, you could work your way up by taming low level quickly-tamed creatures which provided kibble generally for higher level creatures. This is no longer possible with the kibble tier system-you now are forced to spend hours taming brontos/therizinos/gigas without kibble.

 

B) New kibble system cuts out the incentive to explore more than half the entire map and interact with most of it's content.

As it stands according to https://ark.gamepedia.com/Kibble#Kibble_Rework once I tame a Dodo, a Trike, an Anky, an Argie a Rex and a Megalania (all hilariously easy to tame) I have kibble to tame every single creature in the entire game. Some people may enjoy that, which is just fine, and again why WildCard needs to give us the option to choose between kibble systems. The problem that many people have is that there is now no reason to tame anything else-other than a small handful of useful dinosaurs (giga, doed, mosa). There is no reason to tame over 90% of the species anymore-dilos, kaplos, diplodocus, ichthyornis, kentrosaurus, pelagornis, terror birds, tapejara, pachycephalosaurus, pachyrhinosaurus, so on and so forth. What little use these animals previously had will be erased with the new kibble system. They will become useless background NPCs, just like female megaloceros are.

I've heard people say, numerous times that "you can still tame whatever you want"-this is not an argument, and nobody tames useless animals (case in point-female megaloceras, diplodocus etc) "You can still follow the kibble tree however you like" which has been demonstrated to be patently false three paragraphs up.

 

On ragnarok I need to take one or two quick trips out of my house in Viking Bay to find megalania, and then the rest can be found within walking distance. That's it, I've tamed everything I need to. There is no reason to go to the snow biome (other than one minor cave), put myself through the swamps, or explore more than half the map. I don't have to explore the redwoods and get ganked by a thylacoleo and die. I don't have to run through the dangerous swamps avoiding leeches and venomous snakes, nor do I have any reason to ever touch the bottom right 25% of the map which is desert. 

 I just breed my dinosaurs and go look for caves, while maybe occasionally chasing supply drops. I can also play sims and build a cute little house. And that's literally all there is left to do in PvE. The old kibble system provided a necessity to explore every bit of the map in search for new species to tame. In doing so, you had a lot of experiences-you were mauled by predators, you froze to death, or you lost yourself in an enormous jungle. That is content.

 

How is this cutting out game content? The dinosaurs are all still there! Think about it this way. What if Fornite nerfed every single gun to the point that they had to reload after one bullet-now rendered completely useless-except the Pistol? "Well" people in this thread will say "All those weapons are still in the game, so they didn't actually remove any content right?" Wrong! They removed content by making so much of the content useless and pointless to interact with.

 

What if every single FPS game had all weapons do .0001 damage-except for one pistol-but still keep them in the game?

What if minecraft made it so you could craft everything you want out of  one basic resource, rendering everything else existing-but useless? They just made it easier and less of a time waste though.....right?

What if world of warcraft let you craft armor at any level you wanted? Sure it makes everything easy and you don't have to spend time on anything-but then nobody bothers leveling up (which involved exploring the map, doing quests, interacting with the world-content.)

 

Removing kibble progression is the exact same thing. Wildcard is gutting a core mechanic of the game. The people who like the first kibble system like it because it always gave them something to do and a way to progress. For PvE the new system leaves very little to do. It's more of an appropriate change for PvP. Of course, Wildcard should balance PvP and PvE separately-many game aspects have been ruined for PvE players because of their diametrically opposite power in PvP (e.g. flyer nerf, rocket launchers, fishing). Of course this would take work and effort on part of WildCard. Now that they have the better devs as the other ones left for Atlas, I'm confident they have the brains to do it.

I hope by reading this all you now begin to see my point.

2 hours ago, Dolphinsong said:

In all honesty, nothing is getting removed. Its just being CHANGED, there's a difference there.

Do remember the difference between removed and changed please.

If you read my post-particularly what I wrote about Fornite-you will see that this notion is faker than the flat earth theory.

 

3 hours ago, Dolphinsong said:

If it was being removed we would have no kibble content at all anymore, instead its just being simplified, meaning its being changed.

 

This is a false dichotomy. This means that you simplified the whole thing into an "either/or" situation when there are multiple other options. Again read my post and I know you will change your mind.

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You know what, I have some time to kill. I'll humor you. Also, I will note you outright lied just now when you said I did not address it, because we did indeed argue this song and dance several weeks ago. You already used this argument. 

A) I'm sorry, but guess what... the content is indeed still raptoring there. If people want the achievements, at minimum they will still need to tame a variety of creatures. You are still going to interact with them in the wild, they are still going to be there. You still need to deal with the Achatina's acid spit, purlovias are going to jump you, baryonyx will stun you if you get in the water, etc. As I also have noted many times, it's not the kibble system's job to make people want to tame these things. As has ALSO been noted, we do tame creatures that are not "meta" out of personal enjoyment. Again, I tame the goddamn moths, possibly the most useless flier in the entire game. Other have noted "sub optimal" mounts they favor as well. 

A)Progression is also still present, because guess what? The tiers are arranged from starting, to early game, to midgame, to endgame. The only thing that is lacking is an "Entry" to all those tiers from the previous tier (there is one: trike, for entry into regular from simple), and even then most tiers have something that can be tamed without kibble that is at least moderately useful, or at least takes up next to no space. 

What this comes down is "If I'm not forced to play this way, I would not  play that way", which is frankly an incredibly damning argument. You are complaining that players will not follow the specific progression you want them to follow, and also implying that you yourself see no reason to follow the existing path if it did not already exist. This speaks volumes as to how you perceive these tames. That they are "useless". You know what? From a meta standpoint, you are absolutely right. However, here's the rub. Those tames were placed into the game to do specific jobs. If they are not doing those jobs, it is not the purpose of the kibble system to rescue them from obscurity, it is time to update them so they do their raptoring job. And, as I stated previously, there will be people who tame them regardless. All of them, even. Even the ones that don't produce kibble. That's fine.

Furthermore, you still need to progress through the survival mechanics in order to tame these in the first place. A lvl 1 beach bob is not going to roll up and start taming gigas the moment he spawns on the beach, he's going to need get to the point where he can actually survive the attempt first... which, if he is solo (which is my assumption here) means he is going to need to build up to that.

There is one thing I agree with you on here, which is that the kibble tiers need "gateways" into them that do not require their own kibble. This is to make progression into each tier feel natural on a typical playthrough, and as I noted in my comments on the updates something needs to slot into the extra large egg space that does not take its kibble that is not the basilisk. As I also noted, it should also be useful in its own right. 

B)  Again, people will tame what they like or what catches their eye. There is a huge market on PvE for color mutations, to my understanding, for example. People will tame them to get mutations or to get something to breed for their stock (especially during events with themed dinos). Heck, not long ago I saw a post by someone on the reddit who appeared to have nothing but Equus that they bred for color mutations. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned that they knew someone who used diplodocus simply because they hit on one with "jackpot" level health. I use moths. Someone else mentioned they preferred sabers to wolves. Ark has a massive playerbase, and each and every creature in the game was requested to some extent back during its Early access phase. Each animal does have a fanbase to some extent. Well... maybe not Icthyornis and Pegomastax.

This also whips straight back to my point about your argument being damning in its own right. If removing the necessity of taming a bunch of undesired dinos means they end up not tamed... that means that they were not desired in the first place, simple as that. Forcing people to tame them is not good gameplay, and it is not content. It's making them waste their time doing something they do not want to do. What this is setting up- and what I dearly hope follows- are TLC passes to revamp the less desired dinos to at least fill their intended niches better. You yourself are the one saying no one wants them, so the logical answer is to fix the tames themselves. Using the kibble system to cover for that is just bad design. Frankly, they will still miss out on the content as it is in vanilla because no one will bother to use them anyway- that is your argument. Aside from the special tames who have unique taming mechanics like Troodon (And thus do not use kibble at all!), taming them is barely any part of the content they offer. I'm fairly certain I've discussed most of this with you previously. 

It also applies to the exploration part of the argument. You're playing on Ragnarok, which is a map with no story collectibles to hunt down (which offer a pretty nice EXP buff in the bargain). However, Ragnarok is instead a huge map, filled with plenty of hidden Easter eggs. This is something you can do, because there's lots of cool stuff on the map, from Shrek's hut to hidden dungeons. That's still there for you to find, and you're likely to get into danger trying to find and experience them (IMO, Ragnarok would be the perfect map if it only had story collectibles). However, if for you there are only four or so creatures you care to tame, and you have no interest in exploring the map outside of that... the problem isn't the creatures, it's you. By choosing not to explore the map, you are deliberately cutting yourself out from this content. This is actually a really bad mindset for a sandbox game, because by not doing things you aren't forced to you miss out on a ton of content. 

The Fortnite comparison is also spurious. This is not nerfing them into the ground, it is removing them being a necessity. What you are saying would be more equivalent if they took all the dinos not named Quetz, Giga, Rex, and Managarmr, gave them 0 attack and 1 health, and then released it. A more accurate comparison would be if the guns all required a certain number of kills to unlock the next one, and then that was removed and replaced with however they actually do it- are they on the map like with the old Halo games I assume? They're still there, but they are no longer a necessity. People will pick and choose what they like, or whatever they are good with. The stats have not been altered, only the method of obtaining them. That is far more in line with this rework. It is not being gutted, it is being altered.  That it does not work your way does not change this fact.

As I have noted previously, I only play PvE. It is not an honest argument that this change leaves little to do. It frees ups space for different builds, which is something it directly impacts (kibble barns are in no way small). However, breeding is still present, and that is a big part of PvE, solo or not. The map is still there to explore, and you did not really refute that. Only that you do not want to take the risks to explore it unless forced to. That really is how your argument comes across to me.  Hell you yourself said "look for caves"... that means you are exploring the map! So you are still getting that content. 

Again, comparison to WoW is spurious. Technically, yes, you could immediately start riding around on gigas, and from a certain perspective that is true... if you join an already established tribe. Your ability to craft the necessary supplies limits your ability to tame whatever you want right off the bat. You still need to work to that point. WoW is another game I have no real familiarity with (only MMO I have played is MHW), but I would imagine it would be equivalent to attempting  to raid the final boss with your starting gear. Technically, you could do it and get the drops needed to craft the highest level armor. Realistically, it's not going to be that easy. 

Finally, let me note something. Unlike the female Megaloceros, everything else was at least designed with a use in mind. I would not compare anything else in the game to it.

Really though, most of what I've done here is just rehash everything that's been said before.The most original bit in this post, compared to your previous posts, were the fortnite/WoW analogies. Rather than calling me a liar, you would have been better off simply saying you had not been persuaded. Note that if you reply, you are not likely to get a reply back until Saturday or Sunday, if I do. Most likely Sunday.

Edit: Note, had you simply said that you had not been persuaded previously, I would have let the matter drop and left it entirely to Noodle and anyone else who jumped in to persuade you. That being said, you insulted me by A) professing ignorance of the previous debate you took part in and B) using that to call me a liar. Especially B. Honestly, I probably would not have bothered to write this otherwise, as these things take me a long time to write. Which is why I did not bother to write one up last night or, indeed, put anymore than the bare minimum of effort into it given the time at which I had to post it.

Edited by Eldar Seer
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1 hour ago, Eldar Seer said:

You know what, I have some time to kill. I'll humor you. Also, I will note you outright lied just now when you said I did not address it, because we did indeed argue this song and dance several weeks ago. You already used this argument. 

 

You said 

Also, myself and others have already outlined at considerable length why content is not being cut from the game. 

And you never bothered to link a post. Instead you edited your original post and removed that quote since you got called out for it. Either way this is going nowhere, let's just continue with the rest of the debate.

 

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I'm sorry, but guess what... the content is indeed still raptoring there.

You obviously didn't read my post, so I'll just bring back a quote. Since I'm taking the time to read and respond to your entire post, you should do the same next time. If you keep picking and choosing I won't respond.

 

4 hours ago, girlygirlgamer322 said:

How is this cutting out game content? The dinosaurs are all still there! Think about it this way. What if Fornite nerfed every single gun to the point that they had to reload after one bullet-now rendered completely useless-except the Pistol? "Well" people in this thread will say "All those weapons are still in the game, so they didn't actually remove any content right?" Wrong! They removed content by making so much of the content useless and pointless to interact with.

 

 

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If people want the achievements, at minimum they will still need to tame a variety of creatures. You are still going to interact with them in the wild, they are still going to be there. You still need to deal with the Achatina's acid spit, purlovias are going to jump you, baryonyx will stun you if you get in the water, etc. As I also have noted many times, it's not the kibble system's job to make people want to tame these things. As has ALSO been noted, we do tame creatures that are not "meta" out of personal enjoyment. Again, I tame the goddamn moths, possibly the most useless flier in the entire game. Other have noted "sub optimal" mounts they favor as well. 

Again, just because the dinosaurs didn't actually have their NPCs removed from the game doesn't mean that content wasn't removed. It was part of the content that was removed, as I explained previously. There's no reason to interact with half the dinosaurs in the game anymore. And yes, it is the kibble system's entire purpose to make people want to tame animals. What the hell else do you think kibble is for?

 

Just because you tame creatures that aren't meta doesn't mean everyone else does.

 

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What this comes down is "If I'm not forced to play this way, I would not play that way", which is frankly an incredibly damning argument. You are complaining that players will not follow the specific progression you want them to follow, and also implying that you yourself see no reason to follow the existing path if it did not already exist. This speaks volumes as to how you perceive these tames. That they are "useless". You know what? From a meta standpoint, you are absolutely right. However, here's the rub. Those tames were placed into the game to do specific jobs. If they are not doing those jobs, it is not the purpose of the kibble system to rescue them from obscurity, it is time to update them so they do their raptoring job. And, as I stated previously, there will be people who tame them regardless. All of them, even. Even the ones that don't produce kibble. That's fine.

No, what it comes down to is "If have no reason to tame 90% of the animal species, I'm not gonna do it". I get exactly what you're saying about the many dinosaurs that even with the old kibble system were only used for their kibble. However, the old kibble tree made these dinosaurs useful by definition. In the new kibble system, they will become useless by definition.

 

One point where I agree with you is that it's Wildcard's duty to update these dozens of species so they become useful. The problem is, they will never do it. Anyone with eyes can see what kind of job WildCard did with Ark. To expect them to do functional TLCs for over two dozen species is unfortunately unrealistic. It's never going to happen (as much as I wish to be proved wrong). The old kibble system gave them purpose as egg layers-and who knows, if you have a few for egg laying you might as well try riding them or something.

 

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Furthermore, you still need to progress through the survival mechanics in order to tame these in the first place. A lvl 1 beach bob is not going to roll up and start taming gigas the moment he spawns on the beach, he's going to need get to the point where he can actually survive the attempt first... which, if he is solo (which is my assumption here) means he is going to need to build up to that.

I never said that, you're taking my examples way out of context. 

 

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There is one thing I agree with you on here, which is that the kibble tiers need "gateways" into them that do not require their own kibble. This is to make progression into each tier feel natural on a typical playthrough, and as I noted in my comments on the updates something needs to slot into the extra large egg space that does not take its kibble that is not the basilisk. As I also noted, it should also be useful in its own right.

I'm glad you agree-I'm sure anybody in the right mind-on either side of the debate-can agree here. It's just stupid to not be able to progress from lower tier dinosaurs to the higher ones, and the only way to enter a new tier is to berry/meat tame a dino that takes hours.

 

Now,  you'll begin to see why so many people hate the new kibble system-which for the record I'm all for it if WildCard gives us an option to choose between the two. It removes a huge sense of progression from the game. Sure, the first kibble system was far from perfect-but it gave a huge sense of progression and in a sense, a story line to follow. You started by taming dilos, ankylosaurs, and stegos, and as you amassed them and bred them you were able to work your way up. That's what we will be missing. That is what is being removed by changing the kibble system.

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B) Again, people will tame what they like or what catches their eye. There is a huge market on PvE for color mutations, to my understanding, for example. People will tame them to get mutations or to get something to breed for their stock (especially during events with themed dinos). Heck, not long ago I saw a post by someone on the reddit who appeared to have nothing but Equus that they bred for color mutations. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned that they knew someone who used diplodocus simply because they hit on one with "jackpot" level health. I use moths. Someone else mentioned they preferred sabers to wolves. Ark has a massive playerbase, and each and every creature in the game was requested to some extent back during its Early access phase. Each animal does have a fanbase to some extent. Well... maybe not Icthyornis and Pegomastax.

Fair enough, I think we'll just have to respectfully disagree here. Personally I think you are cherrypicking, but who knows, maybe I'll be wrong. We'll just have to see how many dinosaur species are being ignored once the new patch kicks in.

 

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This also whips straight back to my point about your argument being damning in its own right. If removing the necessity of taming a bunch of undesired dinos means they end up not tamed... that means that they were not desired in the first place, simple as that. Forcing people to tame them is not good gameplay, and it is not content. It's making them waste their time doing something they do not want to do. What this is setting up- and what I dearly hope follows- are TLC passes to revamp the less desired dinos to at least fill their intended niches better. You yourself are the one saying no one wants them, so the logical answer is to fix the tames themselves. Using the kibble system to cover for that is just bad design. Frankly, they will still miss out on the content as it is in vanilla because no one will bother to use them anyway- that is your argument. Aside from the special tames who have unique taming mechanics like Troodon (And thus do not use kibble at all!), taming them is barely any part of the content they offer. I'm fairly certain I've discussed most of this with you previously

My argument isn't damning, it's compelling and fact based. I wrote this before but to reiterate: The old kibble tree made these dinosaurs useful by definition. In the new kibble system, they will become useless by definition. If forcing people to tame dinosaurs isn't good gameplay, why don't we let dodos create kibble for every single dinosaur? Why even have kibble in the first place if you can't be arsed to tame a steppingstone species to tame the next? You might as well just go play The Isle or Saurian.

 

The kibble system is not used to cover for bad design-although I certainly agree many dinosaurs are poorly functionally designed-the kibble system is there because people want progression and a challenge. If you read my post closely you will see my response about WC doing TLCs at this point. I'll reiterate why removing the need to tame many species indirectly removes a ton of content from the game;

 

4 hours ago, girlygirlgamer322 said:

 

On ragnarok I need to take one or two quick trips out of my house in Viking Bay to find megalania, and then the rest can be found within walking distance. That's it, I've tamed everything I need to. There is no reason to go to the snow biome (other than one minor cave), put myself through the swamps, or explore more than half the map. I don't have to explore the redwoods and get ganked by a thylacoleo and die. I don't have to run through the dangerous swamps avoiding leeches and venomous snakes, nor do I have any reason to ever touch the bottom right 25% of the map which is desert. 

 I just breed my dinosaurs and go look for caves, while maybe occasionally chasing supply drops. I can also play sims and build a cute little house. And that's literally all there is left to do in PvE. The old kibble system provided a necessity to explore every bit of the map in search for new species to tame. In doing so, you had a lot of experiences-you were mauled by predators, you froze to death, or you lost yourself in an enormous jungle. That is content.

 

How is this cutting out game content? The dinosaurs are all still there! Think about it this way. What if Fornite nerfed every single gun to the point that they had to reload after one bullet-now rendered completely useless-except the Pistol? "Well" people in this thread will say "All those weapons are still in the game, so they didn't actually remove any content right?" Wrong! They removed content by making so much of the content useless and pointless to interact with.

 

 

In short there is little to no incentive to explore most of the map (this was provided by taming many species necessary for kibble), and plainly and flatly the kibble chain progression is removed. Many people had fun following the kibble chain, it always gave something to work on or to do. It is very much game content.

 

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It also applies to the exploration part of the argument. You're playing on Ragnarok, which is a map with no story collectibles to hunt down (which offer a pretty nice EXP buff in the bargain). However, Ragnarok is instead a huge map, filled with plenty of hidden Easter eggs. This is something you can do, because there's lots of cool stuff on the map, from Shrek's hut to hidden dungeons. That's still there for you to find, and you're likely to get into danger trying to find and experience them (IMO, Ragnarok would be the perfect map if it only had story collectibles).

Nobody is going to explore the map for pointless easter eggs. Sure, things like caves and loot drops still exist, but that doesn't change the fact that 90% of the need to explore the map is gone. 

 

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However, if for you there are only four or so creatures you care to tame, and you have no interest in exploring the map outside of that... the problem isn't the creatures, it's you. By choosing not to explore the map, you are deliberately cutting yourself out from this content. This is actually a really bad mindset for a sandbox game, because by not doing things you aren't forced to you miss out on a ton of content.

This is simply not true. WildCard is cutting out the content by deincentivizing players. I have explored the entire map in search of sarcos, kentrosaurs, pachies etc. Now I have no reason to do that anymore because these animals kibbles don't serve any purpose (same tier as ankylo, which is a must tame). Ankylosaurus does literally everything better than other dinos it its tier exept doed-why tame a kentro or a pachy? Their kibble is even completely useless now.

 

This is actually exactly how sandbox games SHOULD NOT work-everything has to have a purpose. Sandbox games are simply normal video games that have less rigid structure, allowing a gamer to roam a virtual world at will. A sandbox game emphasizes roaming and allows a gamer to select meaningful tasks.

 

Minecraft is a sandbox game but most of it's content has purpose. There are difficult resources to find that you have to grind and risk your life for. Spore is a sandbox game, yet killing every type of creature yields you a reward, as does colonizing new planets. Dinosaurs are a huge part of Ark-no they are the one factor the entire game revolves around. Making over half the species completely and utterly useless is not making for a good sandbox game.

You don't add lifeless planets in No Man's Sky. You don't make half the weapons in Far Cry 3 useless. You don't fill MineCraft with meaningless background NPCs and meaningless resources.

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The Fortnite comparison is also spurious. This is not nerfing them into the ground, it is removing them being a necessity. What you are saying would be more equivalent if they took all the dinos not named Quetz, Giga, Rex, and Managarmr, gave them 0 attack and 1 health, and then released it. A more accurate comparison would be if the guns all required a certain number of kills to unlock the next one, and then that was removed and replaced with however they actually do it- are they on the map like with the old Halo games I assume? They're still there, but they are no longer a necessity. People will pick and choose what they like, or whatever they are good with. The stats have not been altered, only the method of obtaining them. That is far more in line with this rework. It is not being gutted, it is being altered. That it does not work your way does not change this fact.

The whole point of that discussion was to show you that you don't have to outright remove dinosaurs/guns/NPCs to remove content from a game. Wildcard is removing game content by making a bunch of game content useless.

You're right, making half the dinosaurs useless is more like making half the mounts and dungeons in WoW provide zero reward. Or removing skill trees from MMOs. Then going and claiming that "content isn't removed" is insane.

 

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As I have noted previously, I only play PvE. It is not an honest argument that this change leaves little to do. It frees ups space for different builds, which is something it directly impacts (kibble barns are in no way small). However, breeding is still present, and that is a big part of PvE, solo or not.

By different "builds" I assume you mean different dinosaurs? If you're hitting a tame cap just from kibble farming, alone then you're doing something severely wrong. The kibble system will not do a single thing to alleviate server loads for multiplayer servers (as has been done do death) if that is what you are saying.

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The map is still there to explore, and you did not really refute that.

I've discussed multiple times why content just being there isn't a reason to explore it. 

 

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Only that you do not want to take the risks to explore it unless forced to. That really is how your argument comes across to me.

To reiterate: 

No, what it comes down to is "If have zero reason to tame 90% of the animal species, or explore half the map, I'm not gonna do it". Nobody ever forced anyone to do anything in Ark, you can just put down the game and play something else. People do things because they want to. Even if it's something frustrating like taming 20 pulmonoscorpius for rex kibble-you do it because you want to tame a high level, powerful T rex. I won't tame over two dozen species and likely neither will 99% of the player base because they have no reason to do it.

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Hell you yourself said "look for caves"... that means you are exploring the map! So you are still getting that content.

So just because there is still some  content in the game, nobody should complain when huge chunks of other content are being removed? I never said there was nothing to do in PvE under the new kibble changes I said there will be very little to do.

 

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Again, comparison to WoW is spurious. Technically, yes, you could immediately start riding around on gigas, and from a certain perspective that is true... if you join an already established tribe. Your ability to craft the necessary supplies limits your ability to tame whatever you want right off the bat. You still need to work to that point. WoW is another game I have no real familiarity with (only MMO I have played is MHW), but I would imagine it would be equivalent to attempting to raid the final boss with your starting gear. Technically, you could do it and get the drops needed to craft the highest level armor. Realistically, it's not going to be that easy.

No, it's actually a completely apt analogy. I've played WoW for 6 years and I know the playerbase would throw a fit if blizzard pulled something like WC is pulling now.

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Finally, let me note something. Unlike the female Megaloceros, everything else was at least designed with a use in mind. I would not compare anything else in the game to it.

This is a completely meaningless statement. Whether or not something was "designed with a use in mind" doesn't mean jack. It's what the creatures actually do that matters, and yes, after the kibble rework, we will have dozens of dinosaurs relegated to female Megaloceros status.

 

 

Thanks for being level headed and responding to my actual arguments. I just ask that you read my entire post (as I did yours) and next time please write out each part of my post you are responding to, otherwise I can't make sense of your paragraphs.

Edited by girlygirlgamer322

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Guys, the constant arguing isn't going to do anything. Instead of all these discussion/arguing, suggest ways to improve what is being tested.

 

Its been suggested to add  'gateway' dinos into each of the egg groups on all official maps that doesn't require that group's kibble (example being a dino that takes basic kibble but can produce simple kibble). That's about the only suggestion I've really seen being made since the whole 'trying to make a point why or why not content is being removed' started.

And also, people do need to remember that not all species exist on all maps outside of mods adding them into the maps. I myself only own the core game as I cannot afford any of the DLCs so things that don't spawn on The Island or Ragnarok arn't an option for me to use for gaining kibble (nor do i have a phone good enough to even attempt the mobile). The highest tier of kibble I feel should cover, in my opinion, at least 2 creatures across all official maps.

Edited by Dolphinsong
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Why has the Titanboa egg been taken out of the special egg category? That was the one dino/creature that was easily available on any ARK map. Granted you needed fertilized eggs to tame it, but you never need a perfect tamed snake. 

Now to tame a Thyla you'd have to brave the wyverns on Rag or SE, or the rock drakes on Abb. Because hell no am I going after golden duck eggs on the island or any map. And what about Extinction? It would seem WC is forcing players to own most of the DLCs and play in a cluster now. Removing the Titanboa egg from special was the worst change WC could have possibly made to this system. 

At least useless wyvern eggs and rock drake eggs have a purpose now. 

Edited by ScaleBane

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I'd like to add another 2 cents based on Noodle's wiki update - thank you very much for that.

I would still like to point out that, with the exception of Rockarot and Savoroot on Ragnarok, advanced crops are harder to come by for small/solo or starting out players, since they require farming, which requires both in game time and a visible base, more or less. Thus there is quite a step in the difficulty of obtaining basic kibble and simple kibble and above, or basic plus simple kibble and regular and above if we include Ragnarok. However, basic kibble does not contain usefull starter dinos which help with farming.

What I would like to see: remove Rockarot from the simple kibble recipe (replace with something else, sap or flowers / mushrooms even) and add some more early game utility/farming dinos to this group. Mainly Ankylo/Doedi, some random berry gathering / transport / mobility dino like Equus or Gigantopithecus. Castorides even, I don't quite see why it is so far along the tree. Also some light meat gather dino and some amphibian dino like Sabre, Direwolf, Kapro, Belzebuffo, Sarco or Baryonix. Purlovia would also be interesting since they can be quite valuable for small and starting out players to hide things.

The other thing which I really do not understand is the placement of the Karkinos. Does anyone see any reason why it is in the last kibble tier, even above Quetz, Giga, Rexes and such? From what I understand, Karkinos + Anky/Doed is the goto farming strategy on Aberration? Since there are no Argys / Quetzals to grab them, and Paracer Platform can not jump so has diminished mobility, Karkinos is the way to go? Putting Karkinos in the last kibble tier seems to really increase the difficulty of Aberration farming.

One other idea that just popped into my head, also considering that the extraordinary kibble is pretty empty - maybe put Tek creatures in the next higher kibble tier from their base variants? Since they give you more potential, why not make them harder to get?

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I'm not a fan of having to cook a full dish just to put it in kibble. I would also prefer the kibble recipes following a template as that is easier to remember and to me it feels more polished (but this is obviously a personal preference). So I made a suggestion for new kibble recipes that all have one egg, one meat and three other resources, where the dishes have been replaced. I also moved sap to a "higher" kibble as I believe it fits better there.

My suggestion:

Kibble Egg type First resource Second resource Third Resource  Meat
Basic Extra small egg 10x Amarberry 10x Tintoberry 10x Azulberry 1x Cooked meat
Simple Small egg 5x Mejoberry 2x Rockarroot 2x Savoroot 1x Cooked fish meat
Regular Medium egg 5x Mejoberry 2x Citronal 2x Longgrass 1x Cooked meat jerky
Superior Large egg 5x Citronal 5x Rockarroot 2x Rare mushroom 1x Prime meat jerky
Exceptional Extra large egg 5x Savoroot 5x Longgrass 1x Rare Flower 1x Cooked mutton
Extraordinary Special egg 1x Giant Bee Honey 1x Sap 2x Stimulant 1x Raw mutton

The recipes as they stand on the wiki, updated 2019-02-20:

Spoiler
Kibble Egg type First resource Second resource Third Resource  Fourth resource
Basic Extra small egg 5x Mejoberry 10x Amarberry 10x Tintoberry 1x Cooked Meat
Simple Small egg 5x Mejoberry 2x Rockarroot 1x Cooked Fish Meat  
Regular Medium egg 2x Longgrass 2x Savoroot 1x Cooked Meat Jerky  
Superior Large egg 2x Citronal 2x Rare Mushroom 1x Prime Meat Jerky 1x Sap
Exceptional Extra large egg 10x Mejoberry 1x Rare Flower 1x Focal Chili  
Extraordinary Special egg 10x Mejoberry 1x Giant Bee Honey 1x Lazarus Chowder  

 

Where Focal Chili is 9 Cooked meat, 5x Citronal, 20x Amarberry, 20x Azulberry, 20x Tintoberry and 10x Mejoberry; and
Lazarus Chowder is 9x Cooked meat, 5x Savoroot, 5x Longgrass, 10x Mejoberry and 2x Narcotic

I chose to replace the Lazarus Chowder with Stimulant instead of Narcotic as I felt that made more sense, but that could of course be changed, I also moved the more difficult (as I see it) ingredients to the last one. With mutton I figured raw is harder to keep as it only stacks to 1 so that is a "harder" meat than the cooked version. As far as I can tell, Ovis exist on all maps, but I don't know how hard they are to obtain on other maps than The Island - maybe something else is better here?

I was also considering a new resource: Candied jerky or Caramellized jerky that I figure could be made by jerky and honey or meat, oil and honey. But that would need changes to the stacking/spoil times of honey.

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