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3 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

Well,  testing is through repetition.  Multiple impregnations from different queens calculating the percentage of levels into each stat.  Over time we can determine trends, which will tell us probabilities.

There has been repetition. And it has concluded that on official reapers do not hit 40hp/50melee, practically ever

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11 minutes ago, bigfishrob said:

not looking for formulas bud. ini settings. just a config file that creates a standard to replicate a dedi or sp to the same as official. What you and others fail to see is faster taming, better taming efficiencies ect all affect stats to a degree. And you originally said 50k hp and 1000 melee was easilly attainable on 25/25 of your spawned in tames. Now it is proven that 50k hp and 1000 melee is literally almost completely impossible, let alone repeated enough for a boss team. The reason official vs sp vs dedi come into question sooo much is because of differences in values that are seen in one versus the other. you seldom see differences between pc/xbox and such you typically see these discrepancies with sp and dedi. In the same way you infer it to be the same, these facts refute that and infer it to be in fact different.

I will say this one last time,  and then I'm done even reading your responses.  Take the stats of ANY random dino on the wiki.  Dinos that have been proven to be the correct stats for YEARS now.  Spawn a level 1 of that dino and force tame it.  You'll see those stats on the wiki are correct.  These numbers cannot be changed no matter WHAT settings you use.  Now go to an official server and tame a level 5 of that dino.   (The lowest level available.)  Do this until you get all 5 level ups in any stat EXCEPT movement speed.  Once you have one,  you'll see EXACTLY how much you get per wild level.  Now increase that dino's level by 1 in ANY of those stats.  You'll see  EXACTLY how much you gain per tamed level.  Now go to single player with DEFAULT settings.  Spawn in and dotame level 5 of that dinos until you get the EXACT same level ups as the one you did on official.  Its stats will be identical. Period.  Give it 1 level in the same level you gave the official.  It's level up value will be identical.   Period.

 

*edit* A real life comparison to what you're doing is like saying "We have no way of knowing what gravity does because God hasn't posted the actual force of gravity for us to read."

Edited by banggugyangu

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2 minutes ago, Wazzamaniac said:

There has been repetition. And it has concluded that on official reapers do not hit 40hp/50melee, practically ever

Arguably the sample size so far is too low for an accurate conclusion (keep in mind, I mentioned my sample size of 25 was far too low to come to any real conclusions in the first post.)  I may do forced impregnations with pregnancy timer turned way down to test 100+ reapers born naturally this weekend at some point.  (I just had a curious thought that wouldn't affect official in any way, but I wonder if, being different than breeding, would the tamed level of a queen change the birth level of a king?  For Instance, if you force tame a 150 queen, give her 10 levels, would the baby come out 235 instead of 225?  It's a possibility that WC didn't consider that, since queens aren't tamable w/o admin.)

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2 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

Arguably the sample size so far is too low for an accurate conclusion (keep in mind, I mentioned my sample size of 25 was far too low to come to any real conclusions in the first post.)  I may do forced impregnations with pregnancy timer turned way down to test 100+ reapers born naturally this weekend at some point.  (I just had a curious thought that wouldn't affect official in any way, but I wonder if, being different than breeding, would the tamed level of a queen change the birth level of a king?  For Instance, if you force tame a 150 queen, give her 10 levels, would the baby come out 235 instead of 225?  It's a possibility that WC didn't consider that, since queens aren't tamable w/o admin.)

...Did you forcetame queens to impregnate you?

Dinos get stat bonuses from taming effectiveness. And I have a hunch that queens do transmit stats to babies from seeing a couple examples (looking at queen hp with mag glass and seeing that my lv 140 queen that got me had less hp that a <lv100 queen that I saw and coming out at 24 pts), which would explain your extraordinary stats.

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4 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

I will say this one last time,  and then I'm done even reading your responses.  Take the stats of ANY random dino on the wiki.  Dinos that have been proven to be the correct stats for YEARS now.  Spawn a level 1 of that dino and force tame it.  You'll see those stats on the wiki are correct.  These numbers cannot be changed no matter WHAT settings you use.  Now go to an official server and tame a level 5 of that dino.   (The lowest level available.)  Do this until you get all 5 level ups in any stat EXCEPT movement speed.  Once you have one,  you'll see EXACTLY how much you get per wild level.  Now increase that dino's level by 1 in ANY of those stats.  You'll see  EXACTLY how much you gain per tamed level.  Now go to single player with DEFAULT settings.  Spawn in and dotame level 5 of that dinos until you get the EXACT same level ups as the one you did on official.  Its stats will be identical. Period.  Give it 1 level in the same level you gave the official.  It's level up value will be identical.   Period.

How about you go screen shot those, bc do you know how long it will take to hunt down level 5's and tame them on official until you get one with every point in one stat????? At the best this might have been done once upon a time long long ago with maybe a dodo, BUT sp got revamped on difficulty a while back bc parts were too hard for an actual single player.

Also between my tribe and wazz we prob have almost your 25 forcetames and the stats are considerably different. The outside and main factor different between your sp and our official is your ini settings and the official ini settings. OR singleplayer mode having dif scaling values than official coded in.

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1 minute ago, Wazzamaniac said:

...Did you forcetame queens to impregnate you?

Dinos get stat bonuses from taming effectiveness. And I have a hunch that queens do transmit stats to babies from seeing a couple examples (looking at queen hp with mag glass and seeing that my lv 140 queen that got me had less hp that a <lv100 queen that I saw and coming out at 24 pts), which would explain your extraordinary stats.

lol definitely one thing. The best melee one i had beat the tar out of my drake vs the other ones.....same drake (until unfortunate events last night)

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14 minutes ago, Wazzamaniac said:

...Did you forcetame queens to impregnate you?

Dinos get stat bonuses from taming effectiveness. And I have a hunch that queens do transmit stats to babies from seeing a couple examples (looking at queen hp with mag glass and seeing that my lv 140 queen that got me had less hp that a <lv100 queen that I saw and coming out at 24 pts), which would explain your extraordinary stats.

Forcetame doesn't give any taming bonuses.  Dotame does.  The kings were spawned at 225 and forcetamed to prevent any bonuses.  Yes,  the queens do pass on stats.   It's just like wyvern eggs and drake eggs.  They're technically laid by the wild wyverns/drakes on the map, and thereby pass on their stats to the offspring in the egg.  With that said,  you can confirm HP before impregnation using a magnifying glass like you mentioned.

*edit* well... forcetame gives any native bonuses that are supposed to be there regardless (such as the +75% melee damage that reapers seem to have now.)  I also, for testing whether or not forcetame gave bonuses, did a traditional impregnation with a level 1 queen.  The baby came out EXACTLY the same as the level 1 king forcetamed, so yeah... forcetaming doesn't change the stats from what the birth would be.

Edited by banggugyangu

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11 minutes ago, bigfishrob said:

How about you go screen shot those, bc do you know how long it will take to hunt down level 5's and tame them on official until you get one with every point in one stat????? At the best this might have been done once upon a time long long ago with maybe a dodo, BUT sp got revamped on difficulty a while back bc parts were too hard for an actual single player.

Also between my tribe and wazz we prob have almost your 25 forcetames and the stats are considerably different. The outside and main factor different between your sp and our official is your ini settings and the official ini settings. OR singleplayer mode having dif scaling values than official coded in.

I didn't say hunt down level 5s until you get one with every point in a single stat.   I said find a level 5 with all it's points in ANYTHING EXCEPT movement speed.  aka.  0 waste levels.   That's not difficult at level 5.  It can have 1 oxygen, 1 food, 1 weight, 1 stamina, 1 health.   Doesn't matter... just no movement speed.  (Preferably have at least 1 health and melee, though, as those are the only 2 stats that AREN'T 1x on official settings).  The "revamp" on difficult is just a .2 difficulty as default instead of the 6 on official (dinos spawn starting at level 1 and increment up single digits up to like level 45.  (BTW, if you aren't sure about this, difficulty setting ONLY affects wild dino levels and loot quality.) 

*edit* also, if you think Singleplayer has different formulas coded into it, then you have no idea how client/server games actually work.  (Singleplayer is still a client/server session where the client and server are both running on the same machine.)

Edited by banggugyangu

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10 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

Forcetame doesn't give any taming bonuses.  Dotame does.  The kings were spawned at 225 and forcetamed to prevent any bonuses.  Yes,  the queens do pass on stats.   It's just like wyvern eggs and drake eggs.  They're technically laid by the wild wyverns/drakes on the map, and thereby pass on their stats to the offspring in the egg.  With that said,  you can confirm HP before impregnation using a magnifying glass like you mentioned.

Im gonna try again but Im pretty sure I get +50% bonus levels using forcetame.

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8 minutes ago, Wazzamaniac said:

Im gonna try again but Im pretty sure I get +50% bonus levels using forcetame.

Even if that were the case,  taming bonus levels are wild levels.  Spawning a 150 and gaining 50% bonus levels is no different than a 150 queen impregnation with +75 levels of exp.

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11 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

Even if that were the case,  taming bonus levels are wild levels.  Spawning a 150 and gaining 50% bonus levels is no different than a 150 queen impregnation with +75 levels of exp.

It is when you get 75 lvs. and then yet another 75 lvs.

Not sure I follow. What was your exact taming procedure? Forcetaming queens then getting them to prego you? Or just forcetaming kings?

Because I think that spawned kings get screwy stats. Testing in sp, they get 80% damage resist in darkness. In official, they get 70%. I have a feeling theyre not the same.

Edited by Wazzamaniac

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13 minutes ago, Wazzamaniac said:

It is when you get 75 lvs. and then yet another 75 lvs.

Not sure I follow. What was your exact taming procedure? Forcetaming queens then getting them to prego you? Or just forcetaming kings?

Because I think that spawned kings get screwy stats. Testing in sp, they get 80% damage resist in darkness. In official, they get 70%. I have a feeling theyre not the same.

So,  there are several different BPs for the kings.  The actual tamed king is one specific BP.  The stats aren't different (again, I tested this with level 1 kings from impregnation and spawned in, with both forcetame and dotame for comparison vs level 2 kings via impregnation of level 2 queens (natural and spawned) and a level 1 queen +1 level from exp.   In all cases, the stats lined up with what the wiki says, but the exception to the wiki's information was the +75 bonus to melee damage, which was constant across all cases.   Again, this +75% appears to be post-tame, so it's an extra 75% of the base and all wild levels.  As it stands, the level 1 stats for a reaper are 6500 health and +75% melee damage (the 2 stats that matter).  Wild level ups are 234 health and 3.75 damage  (or 5%).  The wild damage becomes 6.5625 damage due to the +75% upon birth, which makes the reaper have the highest functional wild melee damage growth for all tamable creatures except the giga.  

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This is some Miami CSI type stuff right here. The original point was that reapers suck for the work required to get them, you get one reaper and i can tame breed and raise a group of spinos to kill your reaper in comparable time with a handy dandy light pet. This is unacceptable as any player on abberation probably has spinos before they have reapers. Even after the buff the damage sucks as they attack way to slow. This isnt a game where meta matters to much, in a straight up fight we spam the attack button and boom most effective hp and damage wins.

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Something else to note, with a 70% reduction in damage, against anything that doesn't involve a charge light, you essentially have a high end saddle worth of armor that doesn't vary in its reduction like actual saddles do.

 

*edit* do we know the damage coefficients for bosses?

Edited by banggugyangu

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3 minutes ago, ayala205 said:

This is some Miami CSI type stuff right here. The original point was that reapers suck for the work required to get them, you get one reaper and i can tame breed and raise a group of spinos to kill your reaper in comparable time with a handy dandy light pet. This is unacceptable as any player on abberation probably has spinos before they have reapers. Even after the buff the damage sucks as they attack way to slow. This isnt a game where meta matters to much, in a straight up fight we spam the attack button and boom most effective hp and damage wins.

1:  Reapers aren't really much work to get, honestly.  I have a design for a trap that, while not very resource efficient, is trivial to make and makes impregnation extremely easy. (100% success rate [no structures to be pushed through or for the tail to go through, while being 100% safe from attacks of both the reaper and anything else that may be nearby.]).

2:  Reapers attack with a comparable rate as a rex.   Yes it's slower than a spino, but not drastically.  Reapers also have 25 more base damage and monstrously more HP.  It would take a LOT of selective breeding to reach the same type of DPS and tankability on a spino.  Replication of good spinos IS a possibility, however, but again, you're looking at a long time investment.

3:  Yes.   Charge light renders the damage reduction bonus on reapers ineffective.  I wouldn't try to fight something while under charge light.  Simple as that.   I'm also not a PvPer, so I can choose whether or not charge light is a factor.

4:  Yeah... meta does matter, but the meta supports the tank and spank mentality, unfortunately.  I would love for the devs to come up with creative measures to circumvent the tank and spank for more creative means of combat in both PvP and PvE scenarios.   Rockwell is a step in the right direction, IMO.  The fight has several phases that differ a little bit, but it's still mainly just a zerg rush with little strategy involved.  (I'm not arguing on what the game is, but rather stating that what the game is reflects the current meta-game, and that the current meta-game does indeed matter.)

I'll say this.  If you have a couple hazard suits, a few good shields, and a large number of stone pillars, ceilings, walls, a behemoth gate, a charge light source that won't be killed by being too close, and a ballista,  you can be impregnated in about 2 minutes pull > impregnation with no risk of death.  (My design relies on megalosaurus, carnos, or ravagers (mushroom brew) to pull her.   Don't try to pull on foot. She's far too fast and only a couple direct hits will break your suit.  A crab could technically pull her, but requires the trap be scaled up a bit in size.  It fits through the area that she can't, but you can't dismount once inside.)

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1 hour ago, banggugyangu said:

1:  Reapers aren't really much work to get, honestly.  I have a design for a trap that, while not very resource efficient, is trivial to make and makes impregnation extremely easy. (100% success rate [no structures to be pushed through or for the tail to go through, while being 100% safe from attacks of both the reaper and anything else that may be nearby.]).

2:  Reapers attack with a comparable rate as a rex.   Yes it's slower than a spino, but not drastically.  Reapers also have 25 more base damage and monstrously more HP.  It would take a LOT of selective breeding to reach the same type of DPS and tankability on a spino.  Replication of good spinos IS a possibility, however, but again, you're looking at a long time investment.

3:  Yes.   Charge light renders the damage reduction bonus on reapers ineffective.  I wouldn't try to fight something while under charge light.  Simple as that.   I'm also not a PvPer, so I can choose whether or not charge light is a factor.

4:  Yeah... meta does matter, but the meta supports the tank and spank mentality, unfortunately.  I would love for the devs to come up with creative measures to circumvent the tank and spank for more creative means of combat in both PvP and PvE scenarios.   Rockwell is a step in the right direction, IMO.  The fight has several phases that differ a little bit, but it's still mainly just a zerg rush with little strategy involved.  (I'm not arguing on what the game is, but rather stating that what the game is reflects the current meta-game, and that the current meta-game does indeed matter.)

I'll say this.  If you have a couple hazard suits, a few good shields, and a large number of stone pillars, ceilings, walls, a behemoth gate, a charge light source that won't be killed by being too close, and a ballista,  you can be impregnated in about 2 minutes pull > impregnation with no risk of death.  (My design relies on megalosaurus, carnos, or ravagers (mushroom brew) to pull her.   Don't try to pull on foot. She's far too fast and only a couple direct hits will break your suit.  A crab could technically pull her, but requires the trap be scaled up a bit in size.  It fits through the area that she can't, but you can't dismount once inside.)

Rex-->62 melee

Reaper-->75 melee          75-62=13=/=25

By the way, you do not need a trap at all. Ride a dino and dismount right after a tail spin which has the longest cooldown; immediately remount. This should start the animation and yanks you right off the dino.

Dont build traps. You play singleplayer so you dont have to deal with this but on multiplayer the map gets choked with traps whenever someone shows a trap concept; this eventually kills off all spawns for the creature that was originally intended to be trapped. If you are bringing carnos and megalos clearly you havent reached the correct progression in the game and are skipping ahead.

On multiplayer this would ruin the experience for others.

Edited by Wazzamaniac

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1 minute ago, Wazzamaniac said:

Rex-->62 melee

Reaper-->75 melee          75-62=13=/=25

By the way, you do not need a trap at all. Ride a dino and dismount right after a tail spin which has the longest cooldown; immediately remount. This should start the animation.

Dont build traps. You play singleplayer so you dont have to deal with this but on multiplayer the map gets choked with traps whenever someone shows a trap concept; this eventually kills off all spawns for the creature that was originally intended to be trapped. If you are bringing carnos and megalos clearly you havent reached the correct progression in the game and are skipping ahead.

On multiplayer this would ruin the experience for others.

I wasn't talking about the rex, I was responding to the guy's comment about spinos, which have 50 base damage.  My traps I build are always built outside of the spawns to avoid this problem.  I also unlock my traps to allow others full access as much as possible.  MOST of my traps don't kill spawns anyway (no structures involved that WOULD) but this one in particular unfortunately does.  It's just built in a place that doesn't have any desirable spawns (it's just outside of the queen spawns in elemental falls, and that's the only thing you REALLY want from there.)  I also don't play on single player.   I use single player for testing and concept building.  I am on an official crossplay server.

My reason for using a trap for impregnation has little to do with the queen herself and more to do with the seekers.  2 hits from a seeker destroys a hazard suit.  It's simply not worth the risk with those.  I have another reason for using a trap that I won't disclose.

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14 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

I wasn't talking about the rex, I was responding to the guy's comment about spinos, which have 50 base damage.  My traps I build are always built outside of the spawns to avoid this problem.  I also unlock my traps to allow others full access as much as possible.  MOST of my traps don't kill spawns anyway (no structures involved that WOULD) but this one in particular unfortunately does.  It's just built in a place that doesn't have any desirable spawns (it's just outside of the queen spawns in elemental falls, and that's the only thing you REALLY want from there.)  I also don't play on single player.   I use single player for testing and concept building.  I am on an official crossplay server.

My reason for using a trap for impregnation has little to do with the queen herself and more to do with the seekers.  2 hits from a seeker destroys a hazard suit.  It's simply not worth the risk with those.  I have another reason for using a trap that I won't disclose.

Ah my bad... read rex first... sorry xD

Well its good that you are conscious about spawns. Most people arent, and if the safe spots are taken theyll move on to spawnkilling areas and take more and more, sadly

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34 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

I wasn't talking about the rex, I was responding to the guy's comment about spinos, which have 50 base damage.  My traps I build are always built outside of the spawns to avoid this problem.  I also unlock my traps to allow others full access as much as possible.  MOST of my traps don't kill spawns anyway (no structures involved that WOULD) but this one in particular unfortunately does.  It's just built in a place that doesn't have any desirable spawns (it's just outside of the queen spawns in elemental falls, and that's the only thing you REALLY want from there.)  I also don't play on single player.   I use single player for testing and concept building.  I am on an official crossplay server.

My reason for using a trap for impregnation has little to do with the queen herself and more to do with the seekers.  2 hits from a seeker destroys a hazard suit.  It's simply not worth the risk with those.  I have another reason for using a trap that I won't disclose.

We lost more reapers due to interference of a trap than we had successfully now i have a couple of places that have been reliable for not getting shoved in the ground and low population of purlovias and arthros. Beat em up on drake hop off and back on after spin. Have tribemate walk up with light as u get prego and then shotgun the queen for free 145 plus xp

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18 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

Yeah,  I'm built a stone's throw from element falls, and someone has been putting a bunch of tiny huts just outside of my pillars.  It irritates me because he's killing off spawns with each one.

We started pillaring the main paths off a bit to protect it from spawn killing structures bc yeab noobs are idiots most of the time.

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I'm going to admit that I didn't read this entire thing here but well:

Traps don't have to be bad for spawns necessarily, if people know how to build without blocking spawns (e.g. location, or building with structures that dont block spawns), also unless they're as*hats most people wont obstruct pathways too much wiht their traps either.

Now to the Reaper itself:

Not having a saddle is a huge downsite, but whatever, probably for balance purposes with the dmg reduction without charge light. Also can't really compare it to a  Rex because Rex aren't anywhere close in mobility to the Reaper and are basically a mount for one purpose only, which is combat. Meanwhile the Reaper is sort of able to do a bunch of stuff.

No Reaper(s) will ever even come close in their eHP to good bred Rex, because of the saddle and because of how the saddle dmg reduction gets applied AFTER every single other kind of dmg reduction (namely imprint and mate boost).

Neither will they reach the dps potential of a Rex with the melee stats we're likely going to have in the near future - even now 461% base melee is available on forums, which can bring a Rex as high as 1217% after imprint and lvls. To match that dps a reaper would have to have 1006% melee, which is

a) very unlikely for you to get (especially to reproduce after you got it)

and

b) not considering Rexes can be mate boosted.

That being said I already mentioned before Rex only has that 1 purpose and crap mobility.

Generally though, I would like to mention that for Aberration purposes they are (at least on the PvE site of things) very capable combat mounts. A guy on my server got lucky enough to get a 46 point base melee on a reaper (396%) and 100% imprint and whether with or without charge light it demolishes any lvl reaper queen, a lot easier WITH the light though.

Still I would appreciate them having a small buff to their base dmg, to maybe 80 or 90, maybe even 100, considering the 75 they do have right now is less than an Aberrant Megalo (which opposed to a "normal" Megalo has 79 base dmg) which is even worse if you consider soon enough there will be those Megalos with insanely high base melee too, with the faster attack speed they'll outdps a Reaper, even a good one, so much that it won't even be funny anymore.

Even with 100 base dmg I think they'd be balanced against the other maps creatures and they'd sort of be the apex predator on Aberration that they're meant to be, until people get really good stats on Megalos.

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3 hours ago, YellowJacket said:

I'm going to admit that I didn't read this entire thing here but well:

Traps don't have to be bad for spawns necessarily, if people know how to build without blocking spawns (e.g. location, or building with structures that dont block spawns), also unless they're as*hats most people wont obstruct pathways too much wiht their traps either.

Now to the Reaper itself:

Not having a saddle is a huge downsite, but whatever, probably for balance purposes with the dmg reduction without charge light. Also can't really compare it to a  Rex because Rex aren't anywhere close in mobility to the Reaper and are basically a mount for one purpose only, which is combat. Meanwhile the Reaper is sort of able to do a bunch of stuff.

No Reaper(s) will ever even come close in their eHP to good bred Rex, because of the saddle and because of how the saddle dmg reduction gets applied AFTER every single other kind of dmg reduction (namely imprint and mate boost).

Neither will they reach the dps potential of a Rex with the melee stats we're likely going to have in the near future - even now 461% base melee is available on forums, which can bring a Rex as high as 1217% after imprint and lvls. To match that dps a reaper would have to have 1006% melee, which is

a) very unlikely for you to get (especially to reproduce after you got it)

and

b) not considering Rexes can be mate boosted.

That being said I already mentioned before Rex only has that 1 purpose and crap mobility.

Generally though, I would like to mention that for Aberration purposes they are (at least on the PvE site of things) very capable combat mounts. A guy on my server got lucky enough to get a 46 point base melee on a reaper (396%) and 100% imprint and whether with or without charge light it demolishes any lvl reaper queen, a lot easier WITH the light though.

Still I would appreciate them having a small buff to their base dmg, to maybe 80 or 90, maybe even 100, considering the 75 they do have right now is less than an Aberrant Megalo (which opposed to a "normal" Megalo has 79 base dmg) which is even worse if you consider soon enough there will be those Megalos with insanely high base melee too, with the faster attack speed they'll outdps a Reaper, even a good one, so much that it won't even be funny anymore.

Even with 100 base dmg I think they'd be balanced against the other maps creatures and they'd sort of be the apex predator on Aberration that they're meant to be, until people get really good stats on Megalos.

that or remove the tamed versions weakness to light.

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1 hour ago, LouSpowells said:

Oooh...more magical secrets about singleplayer Reapers from Captain Forcetame. lol

 

Actually contribute, or don't post.  this thread is already riddled with needless arguing and useless posts.

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