Mutated Dinos for Paypal

[GavinChester]

Hello guys,

I had some one who I was planning to do some trades with say that they decided to quit the game and wanted to sell their dinos for PayPal. I have reported them, I assume it is against the rules and their account should be suspended. I have messages to prove their intent. I am just wondering if someone can provide a bit more information around this. Is this a breach of licence agreement or something? Has anyone ever dobbed someone in before? Did you get a message back saying that action was taken?

Thanks

[Jostabeere]

If it's Official, it's not allowed. On Unofficial they can do whatever they want.

And even if he gets banned, the support will not tell you that any measures were taken. They are not allowed to tell you that because of privacy.

[GavinChester]

Yeah it was official, I wonder how many dinos they will be able to offload before action is taken... thanks for the info.

[methylphenidathydrochlorid]

The ark devs been recently asked that on twitter, the answer was that they do not promote selling items for cash at all, but never sayd its forbidden.

I also have yet to see a rule about that.

I dont think its bannable, because if ppl are so stupid or lazy to pay money for ingame items/dinos ... why not?

[ciabattaroll]

5 minutes ago, methylphenidathydrochlorid said:

The ark devs been recently asked that on twitter, the answer was that they do not promote selling items for cash at all, but never sayd its forbidden.

I also have yet to see a rule about that.

I dont think its bannable, because if ppl are so stupid or lazy to pay money for ingame items/dinos ... why not?

It's the 4th rule within the trading section.

- Compensation for services or trading should be limited to in-game items, services, or dinos and shall NOT involve any real money transactions.

[methylphenidathydrochlorid]

37 minutes ago, ciabattaroll said:

It's the 4th rule within the trading section.

- Compensation for services or trading should be limited to in-game items, services, or dinos and shall NOT involve any real money transactions.

"should", "shall"
Like i stated its not supported or wanted by Wildcard, but its also not explicitly forbidden to do that in general or even a bannable offense.

If its forbidden and leads to a ban, the phrasing should be:

- Compensation for services or trading is limited to in-game items, services, or dinos. Trading anything not obtainable from inside the game (or the Game publishing platform, f.e. Steam - Steamcards/Inventory) is not tolerated and will lead to a permanent ban from all platforms if clear and undeniable evidence is given.

[ciabattaroll]

6 minutes ago, methylphenidathydrochlorid said:

"should", "shall"
Like i stated its not supported or wanted by Wildcard, but its also not explicitly forbidden to do that in general or even a bannable offense.

If its forbidden and leads to a ban, the phrasing should be:

- Compensation for services or trading is limited to in-game items, services, or dinos. Trading anything not obtainable from inside the game (or the Game publishing platform, f.e. Steam - Steamcards/Inventory) is not tolerated and will lead to a permanent ban from all platforms if clear and undeniable evidence is given.

You're right. When Gandalf yelled out to the balrog "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" he clearly wasn't forbidding the balrog from chasing after Frodo and company. He should have said "traversing past this path is not tolerated and will lead to the destruction of this bridge causing a fall into the chasm below" .

[methylphenidathydrochlorid]

15 minutes ago, ciabattaroll said:

You're right. When Gandalf yelled out to the balrog "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" he clearly wasn't forbidding the balrog from chasing after Frodo and company. He should have said "traversing past this path is not tolerated and will lead to the destruction of this bridge causing a fall into the chasm below.

The word "shall" does, in our case, if you may stop going offtopic on fantasy books and films, in no way indicate

1 hour ago, GavinChester said:

Is this a breach of licence agreement or something?

that i broke any license agreement or that i get banned from the game.

The trading section in the forums is also standing on its own.
I do not have to be member of STA.com to play the game, so i CANT be banned in-game for reallife money trading, because the possibility i never even saw that "4th rule" in the "trading section" is VERY high.
The license agreement i accepted when installing the game contains no info on trading, at all.
You cant make something bannable if you didnt tell the users. It would need the same treatment like the "you get banned if you cheat on officials" info in the server list section footer.

//Edit btw. in the books i consider as the "original source" for the film, gandalf says "you cannot pass", the "shall" in the films was just to get some drive into the scene

//Edit2 and the explanation why "shall" is a rather bad choice to explicitly forbid something: 

Quote

Gandalf uses cannot in the book because he is issuing a prohibition, and thus cannot is the correct form to use:
You cannot pass.....I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor,. You cannot pass.
'shall ' always indicates a future event or situation - as Melissa K. says a specific time frame 
I think in the context of what Gandalf is saying Jackson's use of 'shall' is inocrrect.

Source: http://lotrplaza.com/showthread.php?22171-You-shall-not-pass-vs-You-cannot-pass&s=00690e68ec85c68c0f421c959544ad9e&p=424078#post424078

[BCMFTaCtIcZZ]

Yeah kinda messed up to sell dinos for cash. It'd be better for the dinos to go out to tribes that would actually use them.

[ciabattaroll]

13 minutes ago, methylphenidathydrochlorid said:

The word "shall" does, in our case, if you may stop going offtopic on fantasy books and films, in no way indicate

that i broke any license agreement or that i get banned from the game.

The trading section in the forums is also standing on its own.
I do not have to be member of STA.com to play the game, so i CANT be banned in-game for reallife money trading, because the possibility i never even saw that "4th rule" in the "trading section" is VERY high.
The license agreement i accepted when installing the game contains no info on trading, at all.
You cant make something bannable if you didnt tell the users. It would need the same treatment like the "you get banned if you cheat on officials" info in the server list section footer.

You are the only person I know of that needs to have such obvious rules explained to them in such a hand holding manner. You don't need to have read the bill of rights or laws in America to know that littering, even if you aren't an American Citizen, is a criminal offense.

[methylphenidathydrochlorid]

16 minutes ago, ciabattaroll said:

You are the only person I know of that needs to have such obvious rules explained to them in such a hand holding manner. You don't need to have read the bill of rights or laws in America to know that littering, even if you aren't an American Citizen, is a criminal offense.

Please stay on topic, i nor anyone here ever mentioned general laws of countries that are there to preserve public order in reallife. Nor did i talk about littering.

There is still no official statement on the shop pages of the game, in the license agreement or ingame, that is clearly saying we are getting banned from the usage of Wildcards software / ARK. Survival Evolved if we attempt to do trades with real money transactions.

What i do: Stating facts.
What you do: Wild guesses based on individual interpretions (i guess because of your mod status you think ill accept everything you say as "set in stone" and "absolutely true", right?)

 

And no, im not the only one who needs "such obvious rules" explained. You mentioned the "bill of rights or laws" right?
Okay, let me explain you a fact, even if you try to make me look like a fool and derail the topic from your first answer:
What do you think would happen, if there would be NO "bill of rights or laws"? 
Right? CHAOS.
Thats why? Because humans in general need "such obvious rules" explained and written down and enforced by someone.
Feel free to make a journey to the Ukraine to see what happens if even just the "executive" part of the law-system isnt there to enforce what "is so obvious" and still well written down somewhere. Little hint for you: "littering" will be your least problem

Oh and just a little disclaimer:
Im nowhere fighting for trading with money, nor am i doing it or planning to do it, im just stating the facts.
It would actually be nice if it would be bannable, but like i explained: this needs a direct hint in the game or the EULA.

[ciabattaroll]

9 minutes ago, methylphenidathydrochlorid said:

Please stay on topic, i nor anyone here ever mentioned general laws of countries that are there to preserve public order in reallife. Nor did i talk about littering.

There is still no official statement on the shop pages of the game, in the license agreement or ingame, that is clearly saying we are getting banned from the usage of Wildcards software / ARK. Survival Evolved if we attempt to do trades with real money transactions.

What i do: Stating facts.
What you do: Wild guesses based on individual interpretions (i guess because of your mod status you think ill accept everything you say as "set in stone" and "absolutely true", right?)

 

And no, im not the only one who needs "such obvious rules" explained. You mentioned the "bill of rights or laws" right?
Okay, let me explain you a fact, even if you try to make me look like a fool and derail the topic from your first answer:
What do you think would happen, if there would be NO "bill of rights or laws"? 
Right? CHAOS.
Thats why? Because humans in general need "such obvious rules" explained and written down and enforced by someone.
Feel free to make a journey to the Ukraine to see what happens if even just the "executive" part of the law-system isnt there to enforce what "is so obvious" and still well written down somewhere. Little hint for you: "littering" will be your least problem

Oh and just a little disclaimer:
Im nowhere fighting for trading with money, nor am i doing it or planning to do it, im just stating the facts.
It would actually be nice if it would be bannable, but like i explained: this needs a direct hint in the game or the EULA.

Ok, clearly you're not understanding the context of what I said by needing such amounts of hand holding.

What I mean with that is the fact that it's flat out written that digital goods shall not be bought from players using real currency is somehow not enough of an indicator to you that it means RMT = no. For some reason, be it a language barrier or some such, you fail to grasp that inevitable conclusion.

[methylphenidathydrochlorid]

6 minutes ago, ciabattaroll said:

What I mean with that is the fact that it's flat out written that digital goods shall not be bought from players using real currency is somehow not enough of an indicator to you that it means RMT = no. For some reason, be it a language barrier or some other reason, you fail to grasp that inevitable conclusion.

"For some reason, be it a language barrier or some other reason, you fail to grasp that inevitable conclusion." can you please stop to go personal? And stop to post in a "factual" way about me? I know what you're saying, and i can totally follow you, but you refuse to read or consider facts in my postings.

Not going to repeat myself over and over:

42 minutes ago, methylphenidathydrochlorid said:

The trading section in the forums is also standing on its own.
I do not have to be member of STA.com to play the game, so i CANT be banned in-game for reallife money trading, because the possibility i never even saw that "4th rule" in the "trading section" is VERY high.
The license agreement i accepted when installing the game contains no info on trading, at all.
You cant make something bannable if you didnt tell the users. It would need the same treatment like the "you get banned if you cheat on officials" info in the server list section footer.

While we're at it:

Can you explain me why the devs explicitly state that cheating + hacking is bannable? Isnt that WAY more obvious than trading for RL money?

[ciabattaroll]

Just now, methylphenidathydrochlorid said:

"For some reason, be it a language barrier or some other reason, you fail to grasp that inevitable conclusion." can you please stop to go personal? And stop to post in a "factual" way about me?

Not going to repeat myself over and over:

Just because you did "never even saw that 4th rule" does not make you exempt to it.

Just like how not being an american citizen does not exempt you from the laws of the land, not being a member of the official community hub does not mean the rules located within do not apply to you.

[methylphenidathydrochlorid]

12 minutes ago, ciabattaroll said:

Just because you did "never even saw that 4th rule" does not make you exempt to it.

Just like how not being an american citizen does not exempt you from the laws of the land, not being a member of the official community hub does not mean the rules located within do not apply to you.

Can you now please entirely stop to compare reallife public laws to the specific situation we are discussing here?
Its not the same.

If it would be like you sayd, i could just write down my EULA to a note on my desk and if users cry about my software tell them "yo, didnt you read the EULAS? They are here on my desk, your fault if you didn tknow that or didnt read them". 
That is not a valid way to license software. That is not a valid way to limit the usage of my software.
If you think so, im sorry, but thats is wrong.

There is NO hint in the EULA, Store Page or Ingame that i "HAVE TO READ AND ACCEPT THE TRADING SECTIONS RULES POSTING ON SURVIVETHEARK.COM" in order to play the game, trade my stuff or anything.
I never accepted anywhere to not to trade with IRL money. So i cannot be banned. Easy like that.
I never accepted to have to read anything on STA, i was never pointed here thru ANY sales-required document, not the bill, not the EULA, not the TOS (that are not linked/accepted ingame at any point, so they are also considered invalid by their location of exposure), not Ingame.

Its a fully invalid ban-reason through non-communication.
I get your point, but "common sense" means nothing and also should mean nothing if talking about excluding someone permanently from a specific service he payd reallife money for to use it. In this case, permanent ban reasons, especcially when its applied on the (first???) cought (i imply that? theres no statement about how often you can get cought until banned or what kind of ban will happen?) HAVE to be clearly and unmissunderstandably communicated to the enduser.

 

 

[ciabattaroll]

2 minutes ago, methylphenidathydrochlorid said:

If it would be like you sayd, i could just write down my EULA to a note on my desk and if uses cry about my software tell them "yo, didnt you read the EULAS? They are here on my desk, your fault if you didn tknow that or didnt read them". 

Except yknow, you're not a Wildcard Employee nor are you affiliated with Wildcard Studios in any way other than as a purchaser of their product. So that doesn't really hold water. Think of it this way, if the TOS or EULA would be comparable to the constitution, rules written in the community guidelines would be comparable to amendments.

[methylphenidathydrochlorid]

@ciabattaroll

One last question you didnt answer:

Why's there the hint in the server list that people get banned for cheating and using game hacks?
Shouldnt that be obvious?

[YUSHOETMI]

20 minutes ago, methylphenidathydrochlorid said:

 

 

You seem like you'd be a fun guy at a party 

 

Tbh it doesn't really need stating in the EULA for people to understand its against the rules as its quite self explanatory if you have even an ounce of common sense. In simple terms:

Do you own the rights to the in game representations of the dinosaurs you would be trying to sell? No.  WC hold all proprietary rights to everything within the game, receiving money in the exchange of such items means you are profiting off another persons work.  Which is what? Illegal.

Even a child should know that so to say "well it wasn't in the EULA isn't really a defence.

[TranqRex]

No idea what you two are going on about, but anyway... 

Whilst this is pretty lame, I can't see how Wildcard can actually prove anything anyway. If 2 people agree to conduct a PayPal transaction they'd likely be doing so in Xbox message/chat, not putting their email addresses etc in global game chat (at least, you'd hope not right?! But then again people are stupid I guess). If they then go ahead and conclude said transaction, all they'd have to say if Wildcard ever challenged them is there was no transaction, they just decided to give away free dino's. PayPal won't release any transaction histories, so there'd be nothing to check on. It may be enough to put it in the game rules but it's extremely easy to circumnavigate.

[methylphenidathydrochlorid]

1 hour ago, YUSHOETMI said:

You seem like you'd be a fun guy at a party 

Who needs fun?
Btw. if i offer you an abstract trade to sell you my personal reallife time, and you agree to pay 10$ for it. And if the 5 Minutes are used for you commanding me to put my dinos in your tribe. So what to call that in front of a court? Did i trade my dinos for real money? Or, like sayd before "sold you 5 minutes of my time"? How do you judge that the right way?
Like @TranqRex wrote, even if... how do you get evidence if ppl are not so stupid to report themselves????

 

[YUSHOETMI]

24 minutes ago, methylphenidathydrochlorid said:

Who needs fun?
Btw. if i offer you an abstract trade to sell you my personal reallife time, and you agree to pay 10$ for it. And if the 5 Minutes are used for you commanding me to put my dinos in your tribe. So what to call that in front of a court? Did i trade my dinos for real money? Or, like sayd before "sold you 5 minutes of my time"? How do you judge that the right way?
Like @TranqRex wrote, even if... how do you get evidence if ppl are not so stupid to report themselves????

 

Clearly not you.

That's the worst defence in history just to be clear on that.  So if I was to go and sell drugs, I could say to the police "he was paying for my time not the actual drugs?" thanks for the protip.

Reality is WC own the rights to anything within their game, if you gain monetary advantages from the sale of an item without their consent it is classed as an illegal transaction.  Want a real life example? My company has its own finance software which I use to do the companies expenses across the country/globe, we made the package and own all rights too it.  If I chose to download the package on my home PC and do another companies finances for a fee without my companies knowledge/consent I am liable to legal action.

Sadly you are right, WC can't really do anything LEGALLY to combat this, as both parties will just deny anything has happened and paypal won't divulge any information to state they have, but it doesn't mean they cant drop the banhammer solidly on your head and ban you from playing the game.  Thus making you use the money you just received to buy a new copy, which is a win for them. So in essence not actually telling you trading for cash is illegal is just a clever way for them to make more money from the idiots who do it and get caught.  Clever right?

[methylphenidathydrochlorid]

26 minutes ago, YUSHOETMI said:

That's the worst defence in history just to be clear on that.  So if I was to go and sell drugs, I could say to the police "he was paying for my time not the actual drugs?" thanks for the protip.

Thats a different thing since you are not allowed to handle drugs in the first place, i am allowed to play the game. So your comparison is nonsense.

I also never heared about any bans bec. reallife money trades...

[X111]

well...this topic escalated quickly

[YUSHOETMI]

9 minutes ago, methylphenidathydrochlorid said:

Thats a different thing since you are not allowed to handle drugs in the first place, i am allowed to play the game. So your comparison is nonsense.

I also never heared about any bans bec. reallife money trades...

but its not nonsense is it? both are illegal transactions, clearly saying "he was paying for my time" is laughable.  Also playing a game and selling assets that do not belong to you are two totally different things.

I bet your'e the type of person the label "do not swallow" was aimed at when placed on clothes hangers. 

[arkark]

At least in Europe, if its not on the SLA or EULA, the rule doesn't exists. Also, there is a common trick to circunvent that rules that is the same thats being used for tickets at sport matchs or other events: "I sell this pen for x euros and also gift you this ark dino for the transaction". Thats technically legal.

Conclusion. If you want to be sure no real money transaction occurs in game just make a new SLA/EULA specifing that and force users to agree. As the user is not forced to read an entire forum or web page searching for a rule, you have to make the user sign a document in their language (by the typical I've read checkbox) and track a record of that, to be covered by law.