Mega Thread: Flyer Rebalance - Thoughts and Feedback.

[Twin]

I guess it would be too difficult for the devs to base speed/stamina on weight carried.  For example a quetz. ptera etc is carrying 10% of it's max weight can move at 90% of its max speed and if it was carrying 90% of its max weight it would move at 10% of its max speed.  I'd still prefer an option that would allow unofficial servers to set these rates themselves by dino type.

 

[Poltron]

I love the nerf. The numbers may be tweaked later, but after playing pvp for 4000+ hours, air battle is too dominant. 

This change will open so many new ways to tackle the game, it opens a lot of doors that should never have been closed in the first place.

Tweak the numbers, but please keep the speed cap. It's the thing for me that matter the most, ptera that can cover the map in seconds and be immune to everything kills the very existance of outdoor pvp in this game and forces you to do the same.

 

[slayerofzombs87]

this was stupid and unneeded. it makes the game more of a chore than fun. i can get around the island on some land dinos sprinting faster than i can on a bird. or quetz etc. the saying goes if it isnt broke dont fix it. but i forget humanity like to meddle and mess with anything "because they can" sure its just a game but what harm did this do to anyone? it didnt. and devs who do this for their own satisfaction not for the community. tons of people are against this. anyway. this threads pointless till things are reverted. we can debate it till the cows come home .... give us the ability to add movement speed. not raptoring locking it restricting us from freedom in the game. also add it into unofficial servers dedicated ones to have normal flying speed. and i dont care if peoples views are different. its called an opinion dont like it. well tough luck

[JMac]

Dear Wildcard Devs,

Could you please explain to us why a speed nerf was not enough to solve the issue of flyers being OP in PvP?  Seriously, now that speed it nerfed, you can no longer outfly turrets and only a blind person could not avoid the slow flying dino trying to pick him up.   Honestly, a few points in a persons movement speed and he can outrun a Ptera or Argie now and not have to even worry about dodging it.  The point is, why also the extreme stamina nerf?

I would guess that about 90% of the player population understands that flyers could move too fast and that speed needed to be nerfed but again, why also nerf stamina?  I tried to solo tame a quetz using grapple and argie, hit the quetz and it took off faster than my argie could follow.  It finally slowed but by the time I caught up to take another shot, I was almost halfway down on stamina.  How do you expect a person newer to a server to get a quetz?  You would need a very high level argie and dump almost all points into stamina to even have a chance.  But now, why even have a quetz, they serve no purpose.  Get it a bit over half a load and it needs to rest every 25 seconds.  Is that really what you intended?  Did you honestly test fly a quetz before pushing out these changes?  I know you are seeing a good sized player population this week but that is due to the new dinos in the patch.  If this stam nerf remains so drastically, in a month you are going to start seeing much lower player numbers

Now before some big tough pvper comes here to tell me how much I suck and that I should learn to adapt, let me just say, I already have.  My server is building landing platforms up high on pillars all over the map across dangerous places like the swamp which will allow us to get across the map with a quetz safely.  This totally works around your nerf and only costs us a bit of time.  The only draw back is that the map is now littered with platforms making it look ugly.  We are now building a bridge to herb island to help the new players to our server get some metal without being crushed by the many leeds around that island. 

You wanted people to use land dinos in pvp, the speed nerf was enough to make this happen.  Why also nerf stamina so heavily?

[JMac]

30 minutes ago, Twin said:

I guess it would be too difficult for the devs to base speed/stamina on weight carried.  For example a quetz. ptera etc is carrying 10% of it's max weight can move at 90% of its max speed and if it was carrying 90% of its max weight it would move at 10% of its max speed.  I'd still prefer an option that would allow unofficial servers to set these rates themselves by dino type.

 

This already happens.  You can test it yourself but flying an unloaded quetz and seeing how far you get before losing all stamina and then giving it 3/4 of a load and doing it again to see the shorter distance it can now travel before losing all of its stamina.  Players are effected by this too.  Ever notice how much slower you run when close to being burdened?

[Maya]

Yo Jat! Hope You read this.

The Flyer Nerf was needed to end the C4 suicide bombing. I guess that was your main Intention ;). And I think ,,mision acomplished'' by that means.

Also Speeds of Flyers were just very unrealistic, it's good now. Maybe give Pteras some speed back, because they really suck now :D.

Only Thing that is quite a Problem tho is that many Quetzals were skilled a lot in health or were full weight Quetzals. So many tribes are left with a lot of Quetzals that have high hp or weight but just 600-850 Stamina and that's not enough to use them effectively for farming or PVP away from protected Areas/bases. I think you should refund all Points that were spent to lvl Flyers, so Players have the Option to Level more Stamina.

Besides that, nice update

[Lumi]

l like the nerf. The game feels more like survival now..

[Jerryn]

Moved these from another thread.

I personally see the Nerf as setting the ground floor, and now we build upwards.  May seem strange to some, but incremental steps down will only lead to a lot of the repeated posts and behavior we see now.

Also, I am going to go off of the idea that along with adjustments, to ask for a few things; why not.

 

1. Give back a little stamina.  The bird does not need to fly the entire island in one flight, but I think it could be done in a few less landing.  Also, stamina drain could be based on weight ratio; that is, if you go light, you can go farther(and maybe faster).
    
2. Allow stamina to recharge a little faster than it is now.  I think it is okay to have to watch it and plan better(which is what we did in the old days), but I don't want to sit there too long.  Maybe you could do something graduate, where on landing you get a quick 10% to 15%, or so, back, just in case you need to land and go.  And then, the remainder takes a little bit longer to come back.
    
3. I think there does need be some increase in base speeds.  There are a lot of things you cannot catch or keep up with now.  Sort of miss being able to grab something I want out of the jaws of death. 
   
   One of the offsets to a bump in the base speed, would be to have have different saddles which impact different stats. 
    - A scouting saddle for speed and stamina, but at the cost of armor and weight.
    - A battle saddle for protection, but at the cost of speed and/or maneuverability. 
    - A hauling saddle used to distribute weight better(reduces the weight of what is loaded, sort of like the beaver and wood, but not as much); and it does not impact the weight cost of the rider.  The saddle could cost a little speed, especially since you are getting more in a trip.
    - Utility saddles that let you craft on the spot.  Might make this one neutral impact to stats.
    
4. How about getting back ability to use stews/soups/etc. for temporary boosts.  Maybe the boost don't last as long for animals as they do for humans or there is a cool down before any stew/soup/etc. can be used again; so plan ahead. 
    
5. I would love it if I didn't get dismounted for touching water, just have the bird fly along the surface.
    
6. No dismount on disconnect.  However, the bird acts/fights as if no one is mounted; will fight or flee.  Of course, if the bird dies, you may still connect and find yourself falling and/or already dead since you are no longer protected by your bird.  But, it would be nice to not find yourself auto falling every time on reconnect.
    
7. Flyers should be able to defend/attack while walking/landed; they can peck/bite with their beaks.
    
8. A gliding mechanic that lowers stamina usage, and that can be help along with a diving(to get some speed), leveling off, rinse and repeat; any major changes in direction or using an attack would kill the glide.  This could also make for a interesting game mechanic.  However, you would not be able to use this if over loaded; just like no jumping if you are encumbered.
    
9. Some special attacks/defense to help with defense.   Argys are supposedly scavengers, like giant vultures.  Some vultures have a puke defense they use when confronted; implemented in the game, it could act like a powerful dilo spit with a big cool down.  Something similar could be done for other fliers.
    
10. Adding banking/roll(partial, not barrel) that allow you to dodge, adjust, or evade.
     
11. Platform saddles maybe should only be for a place to put certain objects, like mortars, table, cabinets, and such.  And, you cannot build past a certain point; that is, you cannot encase the rider.  Or, if you allow the rider to be encased(and keep the foundations and such), they should be forced into first person mode, where they can see what they can see, and nothing more.
     
12. Just to go pie in the sky, how about some minor(a range of -5% to +10% or even 20%) variance in wilds, so that those new tames mean more.  And it does not affect level, just a bonus.   You could even implement this retroactively to existing tames(except for maybe the negative effect); sure people will still complain because they only got 8% instead of the 10%.

 

[Robersdee]

5 minutes ago, Jerryn said:

Moved these from another thread.

I personally see the Nerf as setting the ground floor, and now we build upwards.  May seem strange to some, but incremental steps down will only lead to a lot of the repeated posts and behavior we see now.

Also, I am going to go off of the idea that along with adjustments, to ask for a few things; why not.

 

1. Give back a little stamina.  The bird does not need to fly the entire island in one flight, but I think it could be done in a few less landing.  Also, stamina drain could be based on weight ratio; that is, if you go light, you can go farther(and maybe faster).
    
2. Allow stamina to recharge a little faster than it is now.  I think it is okay to have to watch it and plan better(which is what we did in the old days), but I don't want to sit there too long.  Maybe you could do something graduate, where on landing you get a quick 10% to 15%, or so, back, just in case you need to land and go.  And then, the remainder takes a little bit longer to come back.
    
3. I think there does need be some increase in base speeds.  There are a lot of things you cannot catch or keep up with now.  Sort of miss being able to grab something I want out of the jaws of death. 
   
   One of the offsets to a bump in the base speed, would be to have have different saddles which impact different stats. 
    - A scouting saddle for speed and stamina, but at the cost of armor and weight.
    - A battle saddle for protection, but at the cost of speed and/or maneuverability. 
    - A hauling saddle used to distribute weight better(reduces the weight of what is loaded, sort of like the beaver and wood, but not as much); and it does not impact the weight cost of the rider.  The saddle could cost a little speed, especially since you are getting more in a trip.
    - Utility saddles that let you craft on the spot.  Might make this one neutral impact to stats.
    
4. How about getting back ability to use stews/soups/etc. for temporary boosts.  Maybe the boost don't last as long for animals as they do for humans or there is a cool down before any stew/soup/etc. can be used again; so plan ahead. 
    
5. I would love it if I didn't get dismounted for touching water, just have the bird fly along the surface.
    
6. No dismount on disconnect.  However, the bird acts/fights as if no one is mounted; will fight or flee.  Of course, if the bird dies, you may still connect and find yourself falling and/or already dead since you are no longer protected by your bird.  But, it would be nice to not find yourself auto falling every time on reconnect.
    
7. Flyers should be able to defend/attack while walking/landed; they can peck/bite with their beaks.
    
8. A gliding mechanic that lowers stamina usage, and that can be help along with a diving(to get some speed), leveling off, rinse and repeat; any major changes in direction or using an attack would kill the glide.  This could also make for a interesting game mechanic.  However, you would not be able to use this if over loaded; just like no jumping if you are encumbered.
    
9. Some special attacks/defense to help with defense.   Argys are supposedly scavengers, like giant vultures.  Some vultures have a puke defense they use when confronted; implemented in the game, it could act like a powerful dilo spit with a big cool down.  Something similar could be done for other fliers.
    
10. Adding banking/roll(partial, not barrel) that allow you to dodge, adjust, or evade.
     
11. Platform saddles maybe should only be for a place to put certain objects, like mortars, table, cabinets, and such.  And, you cannot build past a certain point; that is, you cannot encase the rider.  Or, if you allow the rider to be encased(and keep the foundations and such), they should be forced into first person mode, where they can see what they can see, and nothing more.
     
12. Just to go pie in the sky, how about some minor(a range of -5% to +10% or even 20%) variance in wilds, so that those new tames mean more.  And it does not affect level, just a bonus.   You could even implement this retroactively to existing tames(except for maybe the negative effect); sure people will still complain because they only got 8% instead of the 10%.

 

I absolutely commend you for this post! seriously, while I don't agree on some points, and my wyvern being turned into a statue in my base basically, I absolutely give you a round of applause for posting this, acknowledging there is a problem and making some suggestions. It's far more refreshing than some 'other' moderators who are literally replying to every other post cringingly defending this shambles of a patch. 

[Bugg]

11 minutes ago, Jerryn said:

Moved these from another thread.

I personally see the Nerf as setting the ground floor, and now we build upwards.  May seem strange to some, but incremental steps down will only lead to a lot of the repeated posts and behavior we see now.

*snipped*

Awesome post with awesome suggestions - the saddles idea is fantastic and I would actually love to see it in game.

One nit though - I know that what they said was that doing the drastic change was better but that's not how anyone actually does it. Manage expectations, not backlash. If you know you're going to impact the user experience, overstate the impact, so it will seem moderate when you actually implement it. If you know the change is big enough that there will be backlash anyway, you do it in increments to impact the user less, again overstating the impact every increment. The user's perception is very different when you do it properly. If half your user base is mad at you when you do a change then it's not necessarily that the change is bad, but your management of the change absolutely was, irrespective of the technical details or reasons.

[Roland151b]

@Jat

Not going to beat the proverbial dead horse by saying how this patch wasn't the best; you're getting alot of that all ready. Instead allow me to give you the negative and positive as well as my suggestions as seen from an Alpha tribe player that does PvP.

Cons

1. A player can literally run faster than a flyer. This isn't even a joke, we have tested this. With players able to level up their move speed to a high level they are able to transfer into a server with a rifle and ammo and go hunting and griefing at their leisure. A tribe defending their home server should have air dominance and the ability to hunt down these people in an effective manner. Ground dino's simply don't offer the same effective defence. Recently had some 'visitors' destroy new players and we couldn't respond with the speed we used to be able to. Those players are now gone.

2. Convenience; Ptera speed and indeed all flyer speed offered convenience to the tribe and player that has already put in their time on the ground. The idea that 'survival' is being ignored is irrelevant in an end-game instance. Again the player has put in their time surviving and improved their quality of life to a stage where survival isn't the only concern. I'd argue that for Alpha tribes with the server Xfer implemented now is all based on Tribe v Tribe. Why should I worry about something a level 2 needs to worry about at level 105?

3. Flyer Breeding. We ( Breeders ) have put in the time and effort to create very good flyers. Now those very same flyers are put on par with any old tamed flyer out there? A slight exaggeration of course but that's what it feels like. Time invested doesn't equal the reward. 

4. Needless increase to the grind. Ark is grindy; the never ending gathering of metal etc is tedious. The quetzal and anky combo made it bearable. When I started way back we went from getting metal with Raptors > Carnos > Ptera > Argy Trains > Anky / Mining Base > Quetz / Anky. This is something close to how most new players will progress. The 33% weight transfer was spot on; not to OP and not to tedious. The 100% weight transfer is just not good enough. We need to spent 4 times longer gathering materials to do half as much. This means we are spending more time doing the mundane 'chores' then doing things we like and enjoy to do.

5. The complete removal of fast paced high risk air combat. This was my favourite aspect of Ark. Ptera pick fights 1v1 that meant someone was losing their gear and bird at the end of it. Best fun I've ever had win or lose I always had a smile on my face. Granted being able to fly into a enemy FOB and pick them without ever being shot by a turret isn't ok. That is a 302% speed Ptera. Even at 250% I could avoid alot of bullets from turrets though it was much riskier. Having around 3k hp made it easily possible though. The load out and load in of massive basses at that speed would constantly cause issues with crashing and complete lockups that resulted in death. The speed is the issue, the turret tracking and punch per round is the issue.

6. Ground Dino's are not able to fill the roles flyers did. Even if you remove all flyers, a greater percentage of ground dino's will be relegated to egg layers or 'I just wanted one'. They lack the convenience and utility of flyers. So many ground Dino need to be re-balanced and given incentives to use. Compy shrill is meant to alert of danger? Why not add this which can affect tamed dino aggression levels? Dilo spit blinds, but is so easily avoidable. Why not make it impossible to attack in this blinded state for players and dino?

7. Bronto and Giga are the new meta. Gali or Terror Bird c4'ing etc. Turtles draining bullets. The war meta has not changed, you have simply removed air combat from it.

8. UI ... I don't hate it, but I don't love it either. Functionality feels alright but the aesthetic is just off. Far to futuristic. Spawning in as level 1, I see dino's and I'm naked and everything is new and exciting and then a giant blue sharp edged screen makes me feel like I'm playing something from the 90's again. It's a step in the right direction, but I think lighter tones and softer edges will really make it stand out.

 

Positive

1. I love the new vault size. Seriously good... though some forewarning would of been nice. People with vault drop bases are just quitting left and right. Please take into account that people are looking for the most effective and strongest method of protecting what they have built. Hence the borg cubes of turrets and towers or turrets and walls made of vaults etc etc. I can offer you no unbiased suggestion to remedy this however it is something that should be addressed.

2.  Honestly after such a hefty nerf that's all I can come up with for positive at the moment.

 

Suggestions

1. Ptera ... A quick Scout. Make it's HP top end at 1000. Stamina increased to allow it to actually scout. Weight, it should only be able to carry a rider with minimal gear so id be happy with 200 weight or so. Damage, the barrel roll and its high damage should be nerfed and or removed utterly, it should fit the role of a scout. We would only use the barrel roll for increased move speed to get to places faster, this was it's main utility. Speed... 300% is to much agreed. 200% feels better, it's quick but with reduced HP and damage it will feel risky to use it in combat. Remove the ability to pick up players with the Ptera, straight remove.

2. Argy... This is the All Rounder. HP should be decent as it will be the main war bird, 5k-7k top end would be about right. Stamina should be increased, it should be able to stay in the air for very long stretches of time. Damage could do with a good buff make it dangerous but not OP. Speed, again around the 200% mark would feel right. Still slower than a ptera but quick enough to defend itself and act as an air deterrent. It should have good weight and be able to pick riders etc.

3. Quetz... Utility bird. HP top end around the 20k mark. High stamina and decent speed to make it feel like an all purpose transport / farming bird which is the role it should fill. Putting mini guns on them and using them as backup in war's is better then them being front line tanks with wings. Increase the damage they take from bullets, soft underbelly after all. This is a nice balance between risk and reward.

4. Tapy... Never use em, someone more knowledgeable on them would be better suited to give feedback.

5. Wyvern... This is the Air to Air or Air to Ground beast. These are accessible behind a pay-wall and take goodly effort to attain. They should feel powerful and be used alot in war. With no saddle armour they are already very weak once separated from their rider so I'd argue the HP values are fine as they are. Stamina is not OK, shooting a single special attack and then falling out of the air gasping is just, well dumb. Let them fly and let them fight, the turning circle is a very big encumbrance as is. Speed, they should be the fastest thing in the sky but the least maneuverable. This is where it's role lies. Make it painfully slow on the ground, but quick in the air? Hardened underbelly, give it reduced damage from bullets to the body but highly increased damage to the head?

6. Give true utility and functionality to all dino's. Make them as their dossier says and give them a use well into the end-game and tribes will use them. Otherwise no matter how much you nerf and nerf the meta will always revolve around PvP dino's.

7. Listen to your PvE community, the nerfs effect PvP dramatically, it is unnecessary to pin this on PvE also. 

 

Hope you actually read this and it helps. Cheers for your time.

[brent65622]

this nerf was bullpoop

[Xeeta]

How about that secret dolphin speed nerf?  I had dolphins lose 100% on their movement speed over this patch.

 

Also, how about that secret scuba tank nerf?  primitive tanks do not last anywhere near as long as they used to.

 

If you guys are gonna change things, PUT IT IN THE NOTES FFS.

 

To stay on topic, the flyer nerf is ABSOLUTE TRASH.  You really screwed the pooch on this one, Wildcard.  I can get that it appears to be primarily for PVP, but to unnecessarily punish PVE players for a non-issue on their servers... get real.  Keep this up and you might catch the nickname Bioware Austin.

 

[adv3rsity]

Hello Jat and Wildcard team,

Thank you for the consolidated location for player feedback.

I believe I had already shared my feedback prior to the creation of this thread. I did cover more than the flyer nerf but the bulk of my thoughts were spent on the flyer nerf. My post can be found here:

Thank you for your hard work and for your consideration!

[GavinChester]

33 minutes ago, Roland151b said:

Not going to beat the proverbial dead horse by saying how this patch wasn't the best; you're getting alot of that all ready. Instead allow me to give you the negative and positive as well as my suggestions as seen from an Alpha tribe player that does PvP.

Cons

1. A player can literally run faster than a flyer. This isn't even a joke, we have tested this. With players able to level up their move speed to a high level they are able to transfer into a server with a rifle and ammo and go hunting and griefing at their leisure. A tribe defending their home server should have air dominance and the ability to hunt down these people in an effective manner. Ground dino's simply don't offer the same effective defence. Recently had some 'visitors' destroy new players and we couldn't respond with the speed we used to be able to. Those players are now gone.

2. Convenience; Ptera speed and indeed all flyer speed offered convenience to the tribe and player that has already put in their time on the ground. The idea that 'survival' is being ignored is irrelevant in an end-game instance. Again the player has put in their time surviving and improved their quality of life to a stage where survival isn't the only concern. I'd argue that for Alpha tribes with the server Xfer implemented now is all based on Tribe v Tribe. Why should I worry about something a level 2 needs to worry about at level 105?

3. Flyer Breeding. We ( Breeders ) have put in the time and effort to create very good flyers. Now those very same flyers are put on par with any old tamed flyer out there? A slight exaggeration of course but that's what it feels like. Time invested doesn't equal the reward. 

4. Needless increase to the grind. Ark is grindy; the never ending gathering of metal etc is tedious. The quetzal and anky combo made it bearable. When I started way back we went from getting metal with Raptors > Carnos > Ptera > Argy Trains > Anky / Mining Base > Quetz / Anky. This is something close to how most new players will progress. The 33% weight transfer was spot on; not to OP and not to tedious. The 100% weight transfer is just not good enough. We need to spent 4 times longer gathering materials to do half as much. This means we are spending more time doing the mundane 'chores' then doing things we like and enjoy to do.

5. The complete removal of fast paced high risk air combat. This was my favourite aspect of Ark. Ptera pick fights 1v1 that meant someone was losing their gear and bird at the end of it. Best fun I've ever had win or lose I always had a smile on my face. Granted being able to fly into a enemy FOB and pick them without ever being shot by a turret isn't ok. That is a 302% speed Ptera. Even at 250% I could avoid alot of bullets from turrets though it was much riskier. Having around 3k hp made it easily possible though. The load out and load in of massive basses at that speed would constantly cause issues with crashing and complete lockups that resulted in death. The speed is the issue, the turret tracking and punch per round is the issue.

6. Ground Dino's are not able to fill the roles flyers did. Even if you remove all flyers, a greater percentage of ground dino's will be relegated to egg layers or 'I just wanted one'. They lack the convenience and utility of flyers. So many ground Dino need to be re-balanced and given incentives to use. Compy shrill is meant to alert of danger? Why not add this which can affect tamed dino aggression levels? Dilo spit blinds, but is so easily avoidable. Why not make it impossible to attack in this blinded state for players and dino?

7. Bronto and Giga are the new meta. Gali or Terror Bird c4'ing etc. Turtles draining bullets. The war meta has not changed, you have simply removed air combat from it.

8. UI ... I don't hate it, but I don't love it either. Functionality feels alright but the aesthetic is just off. Far to futuristic. Spawning in as level 1, I see dino's and I'm naked and everything is new and exciting and then a giant blue sharp edged screen makes me feel like I'm playing something from the 90's again. It's a step in the right direction, but I think lighter tones and softer edges will really make it stand out.

 

Positive

1. I love the new vault size. Seriously good... though some forewarning would of been nice. People with vault drop bases are just quitting left and right. Please take into account that people are looking for the most effective and strongest method of protecting what they have built. Hence the borg cubes of turrets and towers or turrets and walls made of vaults etc etc. I can offer you no unbiased suggestion to remedy this however it is something that should be addressed.

2.  Honestly after such a hefty nerf that's all I can come up with for positive at the moment.

 

Suggestions

1. Ptera ... A quick Scout. Make it's HP top end at 1000. Stamina increased to allow it to actually scout. Weight, it should only be able to carry a rider with minimal gear so id be happy with 200 weight or so. Damage, the barrel roll and its high damage should be nerfed and or removed utterly, it should fit the role of a scout. We would only use the barrel roll for increased move speed to get to places faster, this was it's main utility. Speed... 300% is to much agreed. 200% feels better, it's quick but with reduced HP and damage it will feel risky to use it in combat. Remove the ability to pick up players with the Ptera, straight remove.

2. Argy... This is the All Rounder. HP should be decent as it will be the main war bird, 5k-7k top end would be about right. Stamina should be increased, it should be able to stay in the air for very long stretches of time. Damage could do with a good buff make it dangerous but not OP. Speed, again around the 200% mark would feel right. Still slower than a ptera but quick enough to defend itself and act as an air deterrent. It should have good weight and be able to pick riders etc.

3. Quetz... Utility bird. HP top end around the 20k mark. High stamina and decent speed to make it feel like an all purpose transport / farming bird which is the role it should fill. Putting mini guns on them and using them as backup in war's is better then them being front line tanks with wings. Increase the damage they take from bullets, soft underbelly after all. This is a nice balance between risk and reward.

4. Tapy... Never use em, someone more knowledgeable on them would be better suited to give feedback.

5. Wyvern... This is the Air to Air or Air to Ground beast. These are accessible behind a pay-wall and take goodly effort to attain. They should feel powerful and be used alot in war. With no saddle armour they are already very weak once separated from their rider so I'd argue the HP values are fine as they are. Stamina is not OK, shooting a single special attack and then falling out of the air gasping is just, well dumb. Let them fly and let them fight, the turning circle is a very big encumbrance as is. Speed, they should be the fastest thing in the sky but the least maneuverable. This is where it's role lies. Make it painfully slow on the ground, but quick in the air? Hardened underbelly, give it reduced damage from bullets to the body but highly increased damage to the head?

6. Give true utility and functionality to all dino's. Make them as their dossier says and give them a use well into the end-game and tribes will use them. Otherwise no matter how much you nerf and nerf the meta will always revolve around PvP dino's.

7. Listen to your PvE community, the nerfs effect PvP dramatically, it is unnecessary to pin this on PvE also. 

 

Hope you actually read this and it helps. Cheers for your time.

Great suggestions here, please listen WC, don't penalise the PVE community! Also, don't rollout such heavy handed nerfs in the future. Softly softly please and listen to your paying customers because you might find them all moving on and never buying DLC or future purchases again. 

[Bugg]

@Jat

I won't go too much into my opinion on the technical details except to say that I haven't been playing since the nerf except to feed dinos and reset timers. I am not alone in this as I am sure you are aware. I think it's rash to just quit as some people have but that in itself should give you some indication about how this change has affected gameplay.

What I will say though is that the change management and user engagement on this were par for WC, which is to say not good. You guys obviously worked your butts off to bring us some exciting new content, and we were all excited! Horses, underwater bases, a new UI?!? Awesome! But this was the user experience for the majority of people: what the raptor happened to my birds? What this tells me is that there was nowhere near enough notification to the user. The overwhelming majority of us had no idea it was coming; at first I thought it must be a weird glitch or points rollback. You can avoid a lot of angry noise in your direction simply by making sure that your users/customers know well in advance what is coming. Not just the cool stuff! You have to manage their perceptions of the bad stuff too. You can't just be the good cop.

Now, I do know that you or someone else from WC posted it somewhere in a thread on the day the patch went live. And that there was community engagement around the change in the weeks leading up to it. That's fine, and it's a start - but if the majority of people were taken completely unawares by something that changes gameplay so fundamentally, you have been negligent in communicating the change.

Moreover: you are just flat out wrong that making a huge change that annoys everyone then fixing it later is in any way psychologically better. Who came up with that gem? That's not how changes like this are handled by people who manage changes for a living. If you know you have to radically change something to the extent that it will actually upset your user base - which you must have known about this - then you should do it in increments to mitigate impact and backlash. You guys put so much cool stuff into this patch and it's been completely overshadowed by the huge kick in the nuts we didn't know was coming. If you don't currently have an expert in change management on your team, get one. If you do, slap them. In the future, try to follow a few general rules of thumb:

1) You are making a change and your expectation is that users will like it. 

- Don't even mention it until you're ready to move it to prod. Eg, bridges. It just sits there in the patch notes every time generating salt. If you'd never mentioned it there'd be no salt!

- Understate the awesomeness. You don't have to hype the crap out of stuff people will like. They'll like it and say so. If they expect something good, and they get something amazing, they'll love it.

2) You are making a change and your expectation is that users will not like it.

- Minimise the impact. If your end goal is a drastic change, break it up into little pieces.

- Overstate the impact. I mentioned it earlier but I'll include it here for the post I've tagged you in: if I tell you something will take an hour, and I do it for you in half an hour, I have exceeded expectations. You will be happy with me. If I tell you it will take ten minutes, and I do it in half an hour, I have failed to live up to my promise. You will not be happy with me. The same outcome is received differently depending on how I managed your perception. When you're breaking a drastic change up into little pieces, at each phase you should be overstating the impact. 

3) Communicate everything to as many users as you can.

It's not enough to post a comment on a random forum post somewhere on the Steam forums, the day the patch is due. You need to get the information to as many of your users as you can, and give yourself time to get it across. You have an official network that can plaster server messages for days leading up to a patch. You have official forums. Use them!

That's it for me, good luck with it, and I hope to actually want to play soon ;).

[roadrage]

While I feel that flyers were OP, this patch just went way too far.

My suggestions for resolving this and actually balancing things would be as follows.

First off, since PvP and PvE are 2 totally different animals, we need config options to deal with these kinds of things.  Without the ones we have I couldn't even play this game because of the massive amount of time I would have to put in to get even the slightest thing accomplished.

Now, locking the speed was the biggest thing I hated about this.  Playing solo takes long enough without having to slog across the map on foot using thousands of rounds of ammo and hours of my time.  I'm playing on SE by the way, I wouldn't even bother trying that on The Island or The Center, too much water.  So, during the many hours I've invested in this game in the last couple of months, I've noticed the boosts to stats breeding and imprinting can give.  Getting the best stats of both parents along with imprinting giving nice bonuses is nice, but I believe is the main contributor to getting OP dinos.  Boosting stats in this way has no downside whatsoever, which is a problem.  Capping speed and/or stamina will just create the problem of all bred/imprinted dinos having max stats.  I don't believe this is good.

So, we need to create a downside to boosting certain stats so they don't get out of hand.  I suggest tying speed and stamina drain together in a configurable ratio so that an increase in speed causes a corresponding increase in stamina drain, configurable as an ini option of course.  For example, a 1:2 ratio.  You double your speed, you drain your stamina four times as fast, and travel half as far on the same amount of stamina.  This would force a compromise between speed and endurance, as well as allowing the stamina stat, and stamina gain per level to be used to regulate speed.  Yes, you could still pump 300% speed into a Ptera, but you would likely only fly for a few seconds, as to maintain flight time, you would have to increase stamina by 600%.

I feel that this would go a long way toward stopping the supersonic flyers that can stay in the air near indefinitely.  Also, please work on land dinos getting stuck on every rock and tree.  That is the biggest reason that I don't use them much.  Dino convoys are too much of a pain to get anywhere with.

 

[DAgati]

Hmm... well the current nerf that has the quaz not able to regen stamina while flying is a good balance point and the option to allow privet servers to toggle that on/off is a nice touch. IMHO anything that is a PvP balance issue should have an option to be toggled on/off for individual servers.

Overall: The current speed nerf is WAY too slow! Almost all fliers moving literally slower than a snail is just not realistic! Cap the max speed but don't make the base speed seem like they are flying in sludge.  

Quaz: I forget who posted this idea but making the quaz a "paper tiger" has some marits.  Even though before the nerf most quaz's could take on even an alpha rex, i can see them wanting to nerf that part, but at the same time a quaz needs to be able to either 1) defend itself against wild fliers or 2) be able to flee from wild fliers.  If option 2 a good balance would be simular to the wild quaz that sprinting would burn through stamina rapidly.  That is believable and fair IMHO. Another idea for "PvP balance" don't allow anything higher than wood to be built on quaz platforms since stone and higher are limited on what can attack it. Also the removal of the infamous "mining exploit", that needs to be fixed ASAP. The pickup ability can be overpowered, but once again this can be tweeked but as always giving indivuals the option to enable/disable is always good.

Tapa: One odd thing i noticed was that the Tapejara was hurt as well.  i find it odd that a dino designed for scouting/fighting has the stamina for neither.  After all the saddle has 3 seats with 2 designed for "gunners".  Give it decent stamina, speed, and weight, but limit the health as in make it simular to helicopters, you sacrifice health for versatility.

Agres... remove the ability to "rip players off of dinos" for the PvP balance. Aside from that i had no real issue with arges.  Sending a murder (flock) of them onto a bronto and makeing quick work of it was belivable... anyone who has ever seen seagulls fight for food knows what damage a large group of birds can do.  Plus do i need to even mention mr. hichcocks' old horror movie?

Ptera: Keep the cooldown on the "barrel-roll".  Cap the max weight.  These are lightweight flyers. they sacrifice weight and health for speed and stamina.  Once again its more of an allow them to defend or flee argument.  

Pela: Never realy had an issue with these sea birds... loved the ability to land on the water bit.  a damage buff vs fish makes sense.  the loss of ability to grab was a fair trade off for that. they seemed to be well balanced before the nerf...

Other flyers: dont have anything to add to them, never played with them so i have no idea what they can/should do.

Overall: If a flyer is to be nerfed make sure it goes for the wild ones as well to a degree.  example: A wild tapa can be a little faster than a tamed on with rider (makes sense) but they currently are way to fast... and when they don't have that option it makes one feel a little cheated...

One thing that makes some people rather upset was that this nerf rendered thousands of hours of hard work leveling, breeding, and training of flyers null and void.  This can and should make one upset.  

I understand that developers want us the players to use and enjoy the many dinos they created, this nerf was needed on a balance issue.  There is no real denying that, but the way it was handled was very heavy handed. Part of the need for balance was an unintended consequence of the allowing dino transfers between servers.    Developers have already used a few tools to prevent certain items/dinos from transfering.  Maybe limiting the max level on dinos is an option?  They already allow individual servers the chance to toggle the transfer ability.

Final thoughts: Balance in a large game is a hard thing.  The developers think one way and players find work arounds. That is nothing new.  i keep on brining up the option to enable/disable as a tool since this gives gamers a chance to play with some degree of freedom.  Mods, while nice, are not the answer.  I know some people who run their own servers due to the fear of malicious code.  Granted most mods are free of this, but all it takes is one bad modder to put something bad in, or something that someone else can exploit.  Guess my IT buddies are a little paranoid... but back on topic.  The comment mods can fix that is rather cheap and makes it seem as if the developers cannot or will not do their jobs.  

Anyhow this is one of many issues that needs to be fixed.  The land dinos are fun to use, but they have quite a few issues.  Once they are fixed then maybe they will be used more, but flyers do fill a certain niche.  Maybe making some land dinos a little faster (at a cost of course for balance) would be more welcome than the current "Make flyers super slow" we have atm.

I enjoy Ark and hope to enjoy it more.  New dinos and items are fun, but please watch the heavy handed nerfing like this last nerf.  

Thank you for reading and as always constructive criticism is welcome... flames will be used to smelt ore

[Shrekasaurus]

Make Wyverns a bit faster and give them a bit more stamina.

Argentavis' should be the "jack of all trades" flyer. It wouldn't be awesome in any stat, but it would be decent in all stats.

Pteranodons should be a little faster and should have more stamina. The barrel roll should go away.

Quetzalcoatluses should have incredible stamina and the most weight of all the flyers. It would also be the slowest and have decent levels of health. I would actually take away its ability to carry super large animals (Mammoths, Rhinos, Stegos, Etc).

I don't really know what's happened to Tapejaras and Pelagornises.

 

Here's a few things to make some land creatures a bit more useful.

Brontosauruses should have greater strides with each step to realistically increase speed. They should also have higher melee damage (have you seen the size of that thing!?).

Paraceratherium could also have greater speed and melee. These two creatures could also break small rocks in the way. All land mounts should also have less difficulty getting over "rough" terrain (meaning to not have you Tyrannosaurus get stuck on pebbles, or your Stegosaurus on trees).

The weight of Raptors, T.Birds, Gallimimus, and other "light" creatures needs to increase a little.

I know there's a happy-medium out there. We're here to find it. Flyers shouldn't be the end-all-be-all, but they also shouldn't be crap, they have their niches to fill

 

[Volcano637]

2 hours ago, Twin said:

I guess it would be too difficult for the devs to base speed/stamina on weight carried.  For example a quetz. ptera etc is carrying 10% of it's max weight can move at 90% of its max speed and if it was carrying 90% of its max weight it would move at 10% of its max speed.  I'd still prefer an option that would allow unofficial servers to set these rates themselves by dino type.

 

To be honest. With someone riding on a bird, that is already enough weight. After armor and weapons the players is carrying it shouldn't be able to have anything else, as in not even 1 c4 and still be able to fly.

if you don't nerf bird speed thencarry weight should be at 50 for how small the bird is

[Volcano637]

45 minutes ago, adv3rsity said:

Hello Jat and Wildcard team,

Thank you for the consolidated location for player feedback.

I believe I had already shared my feedback prior to the creation of this thread. I did cover more than the flyer nerf but the bulk of my thoughts were spent on the flyer nerf. My post can be found here:

Thank you for your hard work and for your consideration!

I want to thank you for not being like everyone else on this issue.

i still think the nerf was a good idea but I felt like you should be given credit for being upstanding 

[Volcano637]

1 hour ago, Jerryn said:

Moved these from another thread.

I personally see the Nerf as setting the ground floor, and now we build upwards.  May seem strange to some, but incremental steps down will only lead to a lot of the repeated posts and behavior we see now.

Also, I am going to go off of the idea that along with adjustments, to ask for a few things; why not.

 

1. Give back a little stamina.  The bird does not need to fly the entire island in one flight, but I think it could be done in a few less landing.  Also, stamina drain could be based on weight ratio; that is, if you go light, you can go farther(and maybe faster).
    
2. Allow stamina to recharge a little faster than it is now.  I think it is okay to have to watch it and plan better(which is what we did in the old days), but I don't want to sit there too long.  Maybe you could do something graduate, where on landing you get a quick 10% to 15%, or so, back, just in case you need to land and go.  And then, the remainder takes a little bit longer to come back.
    
3. I think there does need be some increase in base speeds.  There are a lot of things you cannot catch or keep up with now.  Sort of miss being able to grab something I want out of the jaws of death. 
   
   One of the offsets to a bump in the base speed, would be to have have different saddles which impact different stats. 
    - A scouting saddle for speed and stamina, but at the cost of armor and weight.
    - A battle saddle for protection, but at the cost of speed and/or maneuverability. 
    - A hauling saddle used to distribute weight better(reduces the weight of what is loaded, sort of like the beaver and wood, but not as much); and it does not impact the weight cost of the rider.  The saddle could cost a little speed, especially since you are getting more in a trip.
    - Utility saddles that let you craft on the spot.  Might make this one neutral impact to stats.
    
4. How about getting back ability to use stews/soups/etc. for temporary boosts.  Maybe the boost don't last as long for animals as they do for humans or there is a cool down before any stew/soup/etc. can be used again; so plan ahead. 
    
5. I would love it if I didn't get dismounted for touching water, just have the bird fly along the surface.
    
6. No dismount on disconnect.  However, the bird acts/fights as if no one is mounted; will fight or flee.  Of course, if the bird dies, you may still connect and find yourself falling and/or already dead since you are no longer protected by your bird.  But, it would be nice to not find yourself auto falling every time on reconnect.
    
7. Flyers should be able to defend/attack while walking/landed; they can peck/bite with their beaks.
    
8. A gliding mechanic that lowers stamina usage, and that can be help along with a diving(to get some speed), leveling off, rinse and repeat; any major changes in direction or using an attack would kill the glide.  This could also make for a interesting game mechanic.  However, you would not be able to use this if over loaded; just like no jumping if you are encumbered.
    
9. Some special attacks/defense to help with defense.   Argys are supposedly scavengers, like giant vultures.  Some vultures have a puke defense they use when confronted; implemented in the game, it could act like a powerful dilo spit with a big cool down.  Something similar could be done for other fliers.
    
10. Adding banking/roll(partial, not barrel) that allow you to dodge, adjust, or evade.
     
11. Platform saddles maybe should only be for a place to put certain objects, like mortars, table, cabinets, and such.  And, you cannot build past a certain point; that is, you cannot encase the rider.  Or, if you allow the rider to be encased(and keep the foundations and such), they should be forced into first person mode, where they can see what they can see, and nothing more.
     
12. Just to go pie in the sky, how about some minor(a range of -5% to +10% or even 20%) variance in wilds, so that those new tames mean more.  And it does not affect level, just a bonus.   You could even implement this retroactively to existing tames(except for maybe the negative effect); sure people will still complain because they only got 8% instead of the 10%.

 

I can agree with most of that except for 11..... people will put an industrial forge on it.

and besides that. As long as the quetzal can not be dismounted in air and gain stamina then I am cool. That is cheating in my opinion, regardless of what the dossier says

[catnip]

5 hours ago, pwellsua5645 said:

Sure they can, just not at blazing speeds that the game can hardly render.

One has to wonder if they are avoiding fixing the render problem with this nerf. Sounds like lazy dev work to me.

[nanoslaught]

 

[Zederia]

14 minutes ago, Volcano637 said:

As long as the quetzal can not be dismounted in air and gain stamina then I am cool. That is cheating in my opinion, regardless of what the dossier says

"I don't care about game lore, do it my way"

 

If you don't like the lore, too bad. the game should follow its lore, or what's the point?