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PvP Rebalance

The current state of PvP in ark is unbalanced. With a small set of dinos any base can be foundation wiped without the use of any resources. When the balance is tipped towards the raider everything gets wiped constantly(as things currently are). When the balance is tipped towards bases people build up excessively. With a good balance no base should be unraidable but there should be a challenge and a cost involved in it. Currently you can foundation wipe most all bases with a rock elemental or other Dino for soaking and a mek or arthropluera to break metal. That means anyone that can get these can go around wiping bases without using any resources. This is causing an unbalance that favors raiding everything because there is no cost involved. Now if the same person needed 100 c4 to raid that same base most likely they would only raid it if they through it was worth the cost.

 

I think the mek, soakers / defenses, arthropluera and structures need to be rebalanced. 

 

In addition the Managarmr also needs a rethink as it’s over powered. It can hit at range, it can flee in an instant, it freezes its target. It can kill everything because of its ability to move so fast and hit from range. It’s better then every flyer. In PvP everything needs pros and cons and every power needs a counter.

 

Update:

I gave you a second run Ark but it’s time I call it quits again. You had the potential to be an amazing game. I had some amazing times early on but too many mistakes have been made. An unbalanced game is just not fun. 

Edited by Jaybit42

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The mana has just too much mobility and potential to cause harm without putting itself in danger. Think of other videogames, the snipers are never the most mobile, the shooters in league are not, in starcraft the units with the most range are NOT the fastest (hence why their brilliant balance team instantly reverted it when they gave the tempest, a FLYING SIEGE UNIT incredible movement speed). The mana DO have way too much mobility for their range, and way too much range for their mobility.

Even in the rare cases you might come up with. of cases of excellent range and mobility, i assure you, its either a terrible game for pvp, or the unit/character does NOT have endgame stats. The managarmr should be weak as a carno or it just makes every other creature obsolete.

Obviously they already added the mana, and it would cause PR problems to just delete it, so I honestly dont know how to work around adding magnificent tameable creatures that add power creep and make everything else obsolete in comparison, because it entices people to buy new content, and compatibilize that with a fair pvp balance. My guess is be careful when it comes to combat abilities, and please refrain from adding extremely powerful combat creatures without good tools to defend from them.

For the same reason that flyers had their mobility reduced, and never had really good combat stats anyway, the mana should see either their mobility, their range or their stats gutted. I personally would like to keep the feelsgoodman aspects of mobility and range, for those who LOVE the mana, and get rid of the feelsbadman of having dozens of dinos destroyed in no time by a mana for those who LOVE fair player vs player interactions.

Make PVP great again, nerf the mana to low tier carnivore levels.

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So your telling me I have time to grapple a mana darting around like crazy and kill it before it can near insta kill me with its breath? I was weight running with an Argy 5000k health around 55 armor saddle and a mana jumped near me. Within 3 seconds my Argy was frozen died and I was frozen and killed. I would consider that difficult to counter. Say I am able to damage the mana before it can freeze me. It can just jump to safety in 0.2 seconds then jump back and hit me at range. It I were to grapple it first I would be dead before I am able to damage it. As DontKillTeal wrote above it’s the combination that makes the mana over powered. It’s mobility, range and damage are a deadly combination. Something extremely fast should be balanced by being super squishy and be required to dart in do damage and get out. Think about standard builds in games. You have your DPS which is a glass cannon. Your tank with high health but low speed and mid to low damage. 

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The mana needs an extreme nerf to dust or an overhaul that makes sense lol.
The current PvP is ONLY to get out of your hiding hole only if you have a lvl200~300+ managarmr, a pocket rhino and pocket giga well bred, and plant Z + med brews.
That's all you need and it's getting rather stupid that every other dino or kit is pointless because of a very wide contrast in strength of dinos.

Another thing i'd like to add is to do something about the way a tribe acquires territory. (Perhaps players start off with a default flag that claims a certain radius for a suitable base size, which can be expanded further as more unique "Boss Flags" are obtained. The reason for this is to address the structure spams; thousands of foundations and pillars all over the place to counter FOBs. That's the reason for such spams... Dinos are OP, FOBs are unbalanced in such a game where a player's strength is hugely contrasted or biased. 

And if this system or something similar ever happens, then i'd like for anything to do with demolishing structures to require A LOT of resource to take down. By now tribes have thousands or ridiculous numbers of explosives or resources and high breed dinos to deal with raids. The reason for this is to improve the overall PvP experience for players in a sense that most of what is called "PvP" is actually just offline raiding, soaking turrets, cheese tactic ganking, sabotaging with traitor players in a tribe, etc. And a small % of that is actual PvP where you get the fun adrenaline equivalent any other shooter game out there. This game to me is like a really nice hybrid of the things that I love in a game;
-The grind to a higher tier against the odds of facing real challenging players.
-Actually shooting/PvP like playing Apex Legends, Counter Strike etc that has no grind and just jumps you straight into action with a quick kit.

And in the current stage or meta, the game is slowly dying due to alphas or players constantly obliterating anyone weaker than them. There is no such thing as skill involved in such a high contrasted PvP. If I show up on a lvl400+ managarmr with ascendant high armor + dura flak or tek suit + plant Z, there is absolutely nothing anyone that doesn't have a similar caliber kit can do to me. And I DON'T like that fact. It actually makes me (as an opponent) worse by degrading my reflexes, awareness, agility and overall survival skill that i've learnt and picked up during the earlier stages. Only to end up being a lazy overpowered unit because my gear can now take over any form of "skill" that I had.
Instead i'd like for literally ANYONE of ANY caliber to be able to have a decent fighting chance. (Like making headshots become a "True damage" thing, hitting the tiny head would deal 3x~4x more damage, meaning a one shot is possible). If a player is skillful enough to trace my head and my dodge movements and get a headshot, that would be fair game to reward the player's accuracy against all odds. As an opponent with superior gear I'd have enough advantages, knowledge, experience to beat this opponent with high success... BUT if I get hit in the head by a good player... That should be a merit. Or if items were standardized, that way an experienced player can calculate ways of defeating their opponent... For example: "He has flak armor, so one dino bite and 1 shotgun blast to the chest would kill him. Or just one headshot but that's unlikely going to happen since he's flying fast".
In the current state it's more like... "I SHOT HIM 5 TIMES IN THE HEAD, HE HAS CHITIN HELMET, WHY IS DOES HE NOT HAVE BROKEN BONES YET AND CAN STILL SPRINT?".

Another is about the resource costs for any siege warfare (C4, rockets, grenades etc)... I'd crank that up into something like needing 100+ c4 to blow up a wall. Players practically have UNLIMITED explosives if they survived for more than a few days and they only grind explosives. Well maybe that might seem too crude of an idea but the reason for this is to encourage RAIDS, but at the same time to heavily discourage WIPES. I'd want it such that the attackers just psychologically can't be bothered to spend thousands of C4 to wipe the entire base (but at the same time they can still raid and take loot). That way the defenders get to preserve a lot more of their building work which hopefully promotes more "smart re-builds" than just spam. The reason for spam also is because it's just a matter of time before raiders soak everything in a few minutes and reach the building to then smoke the entire structure to the ground. Hours of work, coordination, strategy, placement, future plans, etc gone in a few minutes and costs so little.
When instead; i'd rather it be more like a puncture in the wall till they make their way to the loot. If they decide to WIPE a base completely they may still be able to do so but at a huge cost. Getting rid of a player's base entirely should be by far the most expensive thing to do (Unless the player gives up and abandons it to structure decay or recycles the material). So expensive that it makes the war debatable, just like in real life if any major country was to wage World War 3 against another.
And at the same time, hopefully it encourages more proper PvP combat in a variety of evolution stages, regardless of player lvl or condition... Knowing that their base and progress would be rather safe. Less offline wipes, soak wars, cheese ganks or only PvP when they have lvl400+ manas and gigas... 
This perhaps gives more players a chance to have their own little space to grow and thrive in. Over weeks and months one could see it becoming an ecosystem or community which could turn into alliances and huge wars of many different tribes working together.

And with the way how players use "123" as names to hide their server they came from... It would encourage players to form a huge alliance to protect their home server against any foreign players who just hop servers to wipe anything they see. Fighting players who are on the same server as you, eventually seem really stupid when there are other alpha tribes from other servers who raid/wipe you or anyone on the server too.


Something like this is what I expected from ARK even though I love the game regardless... A balance between what people enjoy in PvP and PvE.
PvP shouldn't be all about "the biggest gun/dino wins" as it is currently. But rather... The sharpest, skillful, and wisest survivor wins.
And if we were to have a PvE feel into PvP... Then "Intelligent Design" should always conquer over any form of structure spam.
 

Edited by JetSetz aka cryptonite89

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Also I just came across this video and it spoke out my points that I wrote out. (Specially from 6mins 40sec).
 


I'm hoping the devs somehow heavily brainstorm in an open megathread with players who has thousands of hours to understand the point of view in such PvP.
As mentioned, I don't mind raids (Take all the loot you can find). But wipes are the main cause of players quitting (Destroying structures and workstations that could help that raided player to bounce back). They way that "power" is defined in this game is causing a lot of frustration, harm, negativity when it just needs a little bit of sensible tweaking. We are all here to try and make the game as balanced and fun as possible, while still progressing the way WildCard wants the game to be.

Edited by JetSetz aka cryptonite89
Added timer

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On 2/15/2020 at 9:49 PM, Thyme said:

PvP naturally brews a toxic environment, theres no reason to leave anything not destroyed in a raid, it just gives them more resources to attack back. Since raids are more in favor of attackers, large tribes can steamroll the entire map. Im really hoping they re balance the whole gamemode.

Yep. The way PvP is currently is extremely broken. This is an MMO game with no resource limitation and yet there IS LIMITED AMOUNTS OF TURRETS (Only 100). Which makes no sense. Almost as if the devs have never played their own game in PvP at all, just speculation of what it's like.

Here's a quoted thread I found which is how 99% of the players are getting royally pissed off at how the game is like. 



Yet all this can be easily fixed by tweaking some of the things that makes the game so highly contrasted in strength.
Instead of limiting the AMOUNT OF TURRETS in an area for example, i'd have it so players are only given a 'FLAG' that provides them with a decent area of usable land (which can be expanded by obtaining more 'boss flags', growing the base area to a very large size, about the size of the Alpha King Titan Pit, currently flags are useless and just decor). Servers would be populated again and less need of having hundreds of dead servers run by 1~3 people
Because there is literally NO base design that can stand tall for more than 1hr, no matter how well defended it is. Imagine all your hundreds of hours work gone in under 1hr. One server can sustain an entire ecosystem of players.
Bases that require you to have turret coverage all around the base, that's the worse... Raiders just have to soak up one side to get into the base and wipe everything.
Which means caves are the best base locations, because there is just one way in. But that still doesn't change anything. With 100 turrets, your cave base will fall in under a matter of minutes... Not even an hour. (I'm assuming Offline Raids, because no one raids when someone is online let's be real here, just check the decay timer on structures to know if anyone is online).
But we don't need a huge plot of land for our needs (foundation spams everywhere). And if the "FLAG" idea gets implemented, the new meta would be to build vertically. I'll touch more on things around this idea later in this post (for example: what if people would just blow up the foundation and it all collapses?)

The 2nd video below, features Devs regarding PvP tips which just got me infuriated and enraged the more I watched that video because EVERYTHING about these tips or anything similar for an updated version of this... Is WRONG and I wouldn't advise at all.



When instead there are insanely creative, efficient and aesthetically pleasing designs out there by players who put their brains at work instead of just spamming foundations.
 



Like this for example, and if you watch his videos he has A LOT of awesome builds for all kinds of purposes but unfortunately NONE of them are good in actual PvP (specifically on Official, unless there's a fresh start with no other strong tribes to overpower you). If not, you can experience it the hard way and lose weeks of progress in under a few minutes.
But I like these kinds of plays... It's efficient, elegant, thoughtful. But currently useless and ineffective.
There's no way i'd build anything like this guy's base designs in Official PvP... That's weeks of work only to get wiped in a few minutes.
Here's one different kind of the many examples (Volume warning, this guy's video gets loud):



How is that a balanced gameplay?
That in itself forces players to resort to extreme measures such as structure spams, large coverage bases, plugging obelisks/caves, meshing, only PvP with extreme meta gear/dinos. I dare any dev to play their own game in PvP Official as solo, even for a few days/week, and that's all it takes to see the flaws of the game.

I want ARK to be at a balance where items are STANDARDIZED (Every item has its own fixed stats, and upgrades are just adaptive perks), and bases are near impossible to raid while within a decent limited space and turrets exponentially ramp up damage over time (That way if a raid fails, then it only gets more and more difficult until a long timer resets it). This discourages raiding till exhaustion, giving defenders some breathing room to repair and farm. 
That way all the belongings are safe and they would rather spend their time going out to PvP in the wild against players. Currently it's more oriented towards offline-wipes and high meta tactics/griefing. Which I hardly would call that "PvP"...

Raiding and Wiping should be considered a VERY EXTREME and rare case of warfare because the outcome of it is that the defender is completely obliterated and the attacker has multiplied their strength. Because once a base is found, it's only a matter of time before everything is gone. While the attacker doesn't lose a single dino or any valuables. Being hidden is the only thing that secures a player for long until they can foundation spam a large area and grief the server in a way that only meshing can clear them. But I don't blame such players, they just want to be as secure as possible to not lose progress and that's what it takes. It's down to the developers to realise this is what players want, and to just make it a thing, so that there is no point in meshing anymore because the game is designed in a way that you can raid bases if a player can capitalise on any faults in their defense or builds, 'AND' if they are willing to spend a lot of resources to do so (like hundreds of hours worth of grind to obtain the amount of destructive power to wipe a base), the attacker should be at a critical decisive point to weigh whether it is worth relentlessly attacking a player for their possession or not. Because it should NOT be fun for the attacker unless it's to obtain a very valuable item that they know the defender has or to get rid of a tyrant player or something along these lines. 

If players are just raiding for the heck of it, then that's a failed game... Imagine if society was like that where stealing, attacking your neighbour, kidnapping other people etc was more favourable than working together and only fight when there is extreme social conflicts. And also after they commit all those crimes, they get away with it and there is NOTHING you can do to get back at them because they multiplied their strength, you are basically grinding resources for them to steal when they catch you again. The world model would be a dark place... And we would relive a barbaric phase.
Because everyone's mental attitude is all about cutting someone else down in order to appear taller. That is what ARK PvP currently is... 

We are not even talking about ACTUAL PvP yet (players shooting or in combat), but the stages BEFORE even getting there. You can't just go out there and PvP lol. You need equipment and good dinos but that leads to a lot of problems because you can't build a base at all unless you have sleep-deprived members who are paranoid of offline raids and are the alpha tribe that has foundation spams everywhere and lvl400+ of all meta dinos. And even when you reach such a stage, it's all just NOT WORTH IT... But you have no choice but to now waste more time to safeguard all you have because losing it would feel like a waste of time and feels trash. The best way is to have no ego attachment and give it all away, uninstall the game and satisfy yourself of the fact that you have completed the game at peak. 

ARK already has all the things IT NEEDS in the game for it to be successful, just has to be tweaked into a well-thought-out and fun game. It can and WILL turn into one of the best games of the year, no doubt.
 




I'll touch more on things around this idea later in this post (for example: what if people would just blow up the foundation and it all collapses?)

Here's a video featuring Devs regarding PvP tips which just got me infuriated and enraged the more I watch this video because EVERYTHING about these tips or anything similar for an updated version of this... Is WRONG and I wouldn't advise at all.

Edited by JetSetz aka cryptonite89
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Just because it’s already been nerfed doesn’t mean it’s currently balanced. What dino would you use to counter a mana? Can you prevent yourself or dino from getting frozen? Can you chase one down? can you flee from one? If the only way to counter a mana is with another mana it’s not balanced. Rock beats scissors, scissors beat paper, paper beats rock. Without any balance it just becomes a boring game of mana beats everything. Something incredibly fast should not also deal massive damage in seconds while freezing you in place. 

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26 minutes ago, JetSetz aka cryptonite89 said:

I'm hoping the devs somehow heavily brainstorm in an open megathread with players who has thousands of hours to understand the point of view in such PvP.
As mentioned, I don't mind raids (Take all the loot you can find). But wipes are the main cause of players quitting (Destroying structures and workstations that could help that raided player to bounce back). They way that "power" is defined in this game is causing a lot of frustration, harm, negativity when it just needs a little bit of sensible tweaking. We are all here to try and make the game as balanced and fun as possible, while still progressing the way WildCard wants the game to be.

PvP naturally brews a toxic environment, theres no reason to leave anything not destroyed in a raid, it just gives them more resources to attack back. Since raids are more in favor of attackers, large tribes can steamroll the entire map. Im really hoping they re balance the whole gamemode.

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Regarding my last topic, about players having a "FLAG" that provides a limited area for construction and building vertically instead.
I found it best to slot a small sentence into that large thread to elaborate on that particular bit. There's a lot to talk about, which has a domino effect on a lot of things which leads to how PvP is currently... Which is trash.
It's as silly as how years back we had "PLANT-X QUETZ" or better known as "Battle Quetz" Being by far the strongest and ridiculously broken meta, nothing stood a chance. Gigas and Bosses would melt in seconds.



I remember back in those days some of my friends didn't want to even buy the game just because of that dumb mechanic. That the game looks realistic and has a lot of things that looked very sophisticated, like the giant Obelisk, but then you have that abomination of a creation where there's a quetzal having its wings and head poking out of ugly design metal structures and a dozen plants on it that just destroys everything in its path... And that apparently it's the best thing in the game... He then told me the game design is retarded and he won't bother buying it. I really don't blame him. Today we still see such silly things in different forms. Such as foundation spams, unintelligent base designs (people are FORCED to only use 2x1 sizes, or basically a compact box). Which leads to a whole chain of issues about the PvP gameplay as a whole.
One wise game developer I once listened to a podcast of, said: "The best things he got, to improve his game, was born out of the frustrations and complaints of experienced ones. Not out of random happy suggestions".

Edited by JetSetz aka cryptonite89

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9 hours ago, Jaybit42 said:

Just because it’s already been nerfed doesn’t mean it’s currently balanced. What dino would you use to counter a mana? Can you prevent yourself or dino from getting frozen? Can you chase one down? can you flee from one? If the only way to counter a mana is with another mana it’s not balanced. Rock beats scissors, scissors beat paper, paper beats rock. Without any balance it just becomes a boring game of mana beats everything. Something incredibly fast should not also deal massive damage in seconds while freezing you in place. 

Counter with a high saddle, takes way longer to freeze. A pt with a 80 mc saddle takes significantly longer to freeze than prim. Therefore use a good damage Dino with food saddle. Don't need to chase them if you prevent them from running. A simple grapple works here even if you cant weight them. It will act as tho an araneo webs them or if they can't put weight u prevent movement. Also velos or any fast attacking Dino is a good counter to the freeze. The mana has a 3 second recoil after taking a hit that prevents it from using frost breath. Don't need to Nerf them or fight fire with fire, just know how they work to create a counter.

Edit: as well to escape them fly high if on flyer. If on ground use the terrain to ur advantage or fight.

Edited by NukeGoose

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