Griffin Balance

[DarthaNyan]

24 minutes ago, Jabroni said:

And on top of that, you automatically harvest all of their loot.

Sounds like a bug. Autoloot shouldn't happen form ranged attacks.

24 minutes ago, Jabroni said:

All other Flyers should get a buff though. Stop  the nerfing.

Power Creep isnt always the best thing devs can do to the game either. Instead of buffing everything to match the powerlevel of 1 creature and plunge the game in a new state of imbalanced chaos it is easier to nerf that one creature to be on par with other alternatives.

[Jabroni]

1 minute ago, DarthaNyan said:

Sounds like a bug. Autoloot shouldn't happen form ranged attacks.

Power Creep isnt always the best thing devs can do to the game either. Instead of buffing everything to match the powerlevel of 1 creature and plunge the game in a new state of imbalanced chaos it is easier to nerf that one creature to be on par with other alternatives.

I agree with all you said. The ranged attack is not a bug though and also works with lighnings and fire wyverns.

(I did not mention gas masks btw since almost nobody uses them because of their cost. But you are right)

 

About the nerf/buff thing: You are not wrong, but the thing is, the Griffin is actually fun to use like it should be and like the other flyers were too. So making more counters against it will bring a good Balance while still having a fun to use tame.

But slapping the "OP plz nerf hammer" on everything is easier I guess.

(I see why People think they are OP btw though)

[DarthaNyan]

55 minutes ago, Jabroni said:

About the nerf/buff thing: You are not wrong, but the thing is, the Griffin is actually fun to use like it should be and like the other flyers were too. So making more counters against it will bring a good Balance while still having a fun to use tame.

But slapping the "OP plz nerf hammer" on everything is easier I guess.

(I see why People think they are OP btw though)

From what i have seen the main problems with griffin people have:
- way too high HP pool for its size
- master of everything

And usual suggestions:
- reduce base HP,
- at least remove ability for rider (not passenger) to shoot from its back when flying (so you can land and shoot without dismounting),
- reduce damage multiplier on dive'n'swipe attack - atm it is on par with pre-nerf ptera's barrel roll (when it did multiple hits per roll).

Its speed and dive mechanic in general are not subject to scorn and even with proposed fixes it will remain to be a fun ride. Imo.

[Rofelo]

PVP is all fun and games until griffins come into play then the fun/party is over, unless its a mega war or you brought griffins.

'Nuff Said

[Probitas]

2 hours ago, Lockjaw said:

When this topic was started I had no strong opinion on the Griffin's balance. The people against a nerf in this thread have done a better job of convincing me that it's OP than the people supporting a nerf haha

 

 

So, you admit that the Griffin has the advantage over all other tames, and to you this is balanced. If all combat dinos were viable in their own way, provided that the player is skilled and knows how to use them, would you consider that to be imbalanced?

No, the Griffin ONLY has the advantage when it's attacking from the air (I'd like to see anyone say they lost to a Griffin on the ground if they were on a Rex, because they'd be lying or a really bad player), and ONLY if you don't see it coming. Try looking up once in a while. And if you see it coming, move? If you move, the guy diving has to adjust and may just hit something else first, like a tree? And maybe turn your distance drawing up so you can see them. And since it's PvP, try working together as a proper team. Someone has to be designated as the spotter to watch the skies. If not, you are just screwing yourself over, not the other guy.

Speaking as a poker player, when heads up, if the other guy has a better hand, you WILL lose most of the time (consider PvP to be two guys playing poker who refuse to fold). It's a statistical fact. An air dino should be better than a ground dino, while in the air. If they nerf them to be weaker than ground dinos even when flying, there is no reason to have them. May as well take them right out of the game entirely.

The same logic process that says the Griffin is too OP can also be applied to the Dimorph, because nothing that small should be able to kill anything as large as a Rex even in a swarm of 10. But it happens all the time. Same with the Spino. But you don't hear anyone crying nerf the Dimorph, do you?

[X111]

maybe instead of Nerfing the creatures the Devs can actually propose their counter species.

for example: the threat and the answer in warfare can be see when comparing the Apache and the Havoc.

the issue is WC haven't released dino's with their equivalent alternative for combat resulting in massive unbalance. each creature is a "step" higher than the last instead having pair creatures from the same "step" to cancel each other out.

so instead of grif v grif, wyv v wyv, giga v giga

it should be (for example) grif v argy, wyv v phoenix, giga v golem?

start developing creatures with their opponents in mind?

 

 

 

[Probitas]

2 minutes ago, X111 said:

maybe instead of Nerfing the creatures the Devs can actually propose their counter species.

for example: the threat and the answer in warfare can be see when comparing the Apache and the Havoc.

the issue is WC haven't released dino's with their equivalent alternative for combat resulting in massive unbalance. each creature is a "step" higher than the last instead having pair creatures from the same "step" to cancel each other out.

so instead of grif v grif, wyv v wyv, giga v giga

it should be (for example) grif v argy, wyv v phoenix, giga v golem?

start developing creatures with their opponents in mind?

 

 

 

That then removes the skill component from the game completely. Players then just have to use the counter to anything. Instead of developing a way to win using their best weapon, the Brain Mk I.

[ForzaProiettile]

7 minutes ago, Probitas said:

That then removes the skill component from the game completely. Players then just have to use the counter to anything. Instead of developing a way to win using their best weapon, the Brain Mk I.

Oh please there is no skill in sitting on a Giga and left clicking. Takes no brains or effort. 

[X111]

5 minutes ago, Probitas said:

That then removes the skill component from the game completely. Players then just have to use the counter to anything. Instead of developing a way to win using their best weapon, the Brain Mk I.

but that was the beginning argument I put forward at the start of this thread, if you're being chased by a guy with a bazooka, get smart and get yourself a bazooka?

I don't want the Grif nerfed and I don't think half the nerfs that have happened to the fliers over the years were needed, its just because a few people couldn't handle fast flying, powerful mounts that took the time to get by the rider to then be boiled down and made a shadow of its former self.

 

when I PVP'd on SE our tribe use to cause so much trouble with wyvern flyers and us on Tappies. people just aren't interested in figuring it out for themselves and getting on with it

[ForzaProiettile]

43 minutes ago, Rofelo said:

PVP is all fun and games until griffins come into play then the fun/party is over, unless its a mega war or you brought griffins.

'Nuff Said

Yep summed it up well. The Griffin is basically the pre nerf Pteradon/Wyvern. Master of everything and super easy mode dino.

I can't believe there are people in this thread still trying to defend them, although when I think about it there was players that were defending the super Pteradons from before the nerf saying they were not unbalanced. It makes you wonder.

[ForzaProiettile]

3 minutes ago, X111 said:

 

but that was the beginning argument I put forward at the start of this thread, if you're being chased by a guy with a bazooka, get smart and get yourself a bazooka?

I don't want the Grif nerfed and I don't think half the nerfs that have happened to the fliers over the years were needed, its just because a few people couldn't handle fast flying, powerful mounts that took the time to get by the rider to then be boiled down and made a shadow of its former self.

 

when I PVP'd on SE our tribe use to cause so much trouble with wyvern flyers and us on Tappies. people just aren't interested in figuring it out for themselves and getting on with it

The pre nerf Pteradons were horribly broken as were pre nerf flyers in general. The Pteradons moved so fast they could blitz past turrets and C4 suicide into bases. For a dino that was super cheap and easy to tame and breed they were ridiculous good at just about everything.

The Griffin is basically what using a pre nerf flyer would feel like today. Nice and OP destroying everything in its path with no counters other then itself. That is a definite sign it is well and truly not balanced properly.

[Esquire1980]

Easy way to fix this, WC.

Give admins a choice in the server set ups to NERF girffins.   Set a few official servers to the NERF and leave the rest alone.  The NERF!!!!!! griffin crowd can move to the nerfed servers and ev1 else can just play the game.

I've got a Wyvern now, level 205, that has 60K health and 4K melee damage and people want griffins nerfed.  /scarcasm.  The stats on our wyverns are so OP now that I'm adding the mod for griffin breeding on Rag just to keep up with the Wyverns.

[ForzaProiettile]

6 minutes ago, Esquire1980 said:

Easy way to fix this, WC.

Give admins a choice in the server set ups to NERF girffins.   Set a few official servers to the NERF and leave the rest alone.  The NERF!!!!!! griffin crowd can move to the nerfed servers and ev1 else can just play the game.

I've got a Wyvern now, level 205, that has 60K health and 4K melee damage and people want griffins nerfed.  /scarcasm.  The stats on our wyverns are so OP now that I'm adding the mod for griffin breeding on Rag just to keep up with the Wyverns.

So you are suggesting that players that want a balanced game should be separated from those that don't? Right ok..

[X111]

5 minutes ago, ForzaProiettile said:

The pre nerf Pteradons were horribly broken as were pre nerf flyers in general. The Pteradons moved so fast they could blitz past turrets and C4 suicide into bases. For a dino that was super cheap and easy to tame and breed they were ridiculous good at just about everything.

The Griffin is basically what using a pre nerf flyer would feel like today. Nice and OP destroying everything in its path with no counters other then itself. That is a definite sign it is well and truly not balanced properly.

I see you point of view but I wonder if there already isn't a way to counter this?

when flittering around Rag I saw an ingenious design of Spider, Xplant, Y plant, turret, and Chylo being used on base defence, the player was already well situated against ground attack and proved as much when I got too close. he layered his defence to have his turrets target the player, at mid range, his Y plants were stacked 2 deep, his Xplants were mount targeted, his spiders were on aggressive following his Chylos which he moved to a new position every day. I though I'd give it a shot as he seemed to be well kitted out. we lost 5 grifs and MC gear on aerial and a few low level land crawlers.

it depend on how you layer your air defence and specify targets to your defences

[Esquire1980]

4 hours ago, ForzaProiettile said:

So you are suggesting that players that want a balanced game should be separated from those that don't? Right ok..

I'm suggesting that people who do not want to see more nerfs, to everything,  be separated from the ones who do.

I've played MMOs for far too long now and I've seen this time and time again.  Played SWG for 9 years (official) and years after that on EMUs and many, many. of the other ones.  In fact, I ran an EMU server for a couple of years myself before I found ARK and I have my own servers here too.  This is becoming what we "fondly" referred to as "NERF WARS".  There was about a year period in Galaxies where if some1 got lunched, in PVP, by some1 else with.......anything, all it took was a post of "NERF them!!!!!!!" and the SOE nerf would be in the next patch.  Another, in a list, of reasons why  SOE lost 300K players.  Anyone here remember pre-patch 9 Jedi?

Even Blizzard did a study in WoW as to why people left their game, and the number 1 reason was nerfs.  Not monetization, not changing the game with expansions, etc  etc etc, NERFs.  And you really want WC to disregard all of this and make the same mistakes?

My suggestion, after following this thread for awhile, is to  "split the baby", so to speak.  You'll know which server set your playing before you make the choice to join a server or not.  And if you move your tribe to another server to take over that 1 too, you'll have a good idea of what your facing before you do it.

[Probitas]

3 hours ago, ForzaProiettile said:

Oh please there is no skill in sitting on a Giga and left clicking. Takes no brains or effort. 

Then no one should be complaining about the Griffin. There is some actual skill required to use it properly.

[Probitas]

2 hours ago, Esquire1980 said:

I'm suggesting that people who do not want to see more nerfs, to everything,  be separated from the ones who do.

I've played MMOs for far too long now and I've seen this time and time again.  Played SWG for 9 years (official) and years after that on EMUs and many, many. of the other ones.  In fact, I ran an EMU server for a couple of years myself before I found ARK and I have my own servers here too.  This is becoming what we "fondly" referred to as "NERF WARS".  There was about a year period in Galaxies where if some1 got lunched, in PVP, by some1 else with.......anything, all it took was a post of "NERF them!!!!!!!" and the SOE nerf would be in the next patch.  Another, in a list, of reasons why  SOE lost 300K players.  Anyone here remember pre-patch 9 Jedi?

Even Blizzard did a study in WoW as to why people left their game, and the number 1 reason was nerfs.  Not monetization, not changing the game with expansions, etc  etc etc, NERFs.  And you really want WC to disregard all of this and make the same mistakes?

My suggestion, after following this thread for awhile, is to  "spit the baby", so to speak.  You'll know which server set your playing before you make the choice to join a server or not.  And if you move your tribe to another server to take over that 1 too, you'll have a good idea of what your facing before you do it.

I had a maxed out Rifleman, he could one or two shot most stuff in the game, but I was squishy up close. People didn't like that, so in came the nerf. Bunch of babies ruined that game too.

[Probitas]

3 hours ago, X111 said:

I see you point of view but I wonder if there already isn't a way to counter this?

when flittering around Rag I saw an ingenious design of Spider, Xplant, Y plant, turret, and Chylo being used on base defence, the player was already well situated against ground attack and proved as much when I got too close. he layered his defence to have his turrets target the player, at mid range, his Y plants were stacked 2 deep, his Xplants were mount targeted, his spiders were on aggressive following his Chylos which he moved to a new position every day. I though I'd give it a shot as he seemed to be well kitted out. we lost 5 grifs and MC gear on aerial and a few low level land crawlers.

it depend on how you layer your air defence and specify targets to your defences

Exactly. People who complain about losing to Griffins have no imagination and want everything to be easy mode. Go play WoW if you want that. If someone provides tools I'm going to use them, same as anyone, and I won't be complaining about it if they get used against me. I think some players are just crying because they have to adapt, rather than sit on their lazy arses and coast.

[DaGoodNamesWereTaken]

Ive been in my fair share of pvp and griffins are op af. Can pick you off any tame, has speed advantage, 1-2 shots people who are picked, auto harvests, speed can bypass plant x and turrets.

 

My personal opinion is nerf the health per level gain, dive has a cool down like ptera roll, Lower pick aoe.

Also you have to give every flyer in the game except the quetz with a platform saddle the same dive mechanic the griffin has. Griffins still have more tools but argies especially need the dive mechanic enabled. Pteras should stay how they are, wyverns need maybe a slower glide then other tames.

 

 

[ChargingParacerParacer]

6 hours ago, DarthaNyan said:

Sounds like a bug. Autoloot shouldn't happen form ranged attacks.

Power Creep isnt always the best thing devs can do to the game either. Instead of buffing everything to match the powerlevel of 1 creature and plunge the game in a new state of imbalanced chaos it is easier to nerf that one creature to be on par with other alternatives.

I really hate to break it to people in here and to the devs themselves but the pvp in ghis game will never truely be balanced. As soon as the devs go and 'fix' something smart players then just develop new meta to just re-break the game again anyways. No amount of nerfs is going to change the honest fact that players will always find new broken ways to be the best and they need to stop making changes that affect the modes that aren't broken to begin with. 

[DarthaNyan]

29 minutes ago, ChargingParacerParacer said:

I really hate to break it to people in here and to the devs themselves but the pvp in ghis game will never truely be balanced. As soon as the devs go and 'fix' something smart players then just develop new meta to just re-break the game again anyways. No amount of nerfs is going to change the honest fact that players will always find new broken ways to be the best and they need to stop making changes that affect the modes that aren't broken to begin with. 

And thats normal - that state is called "perfect imbalance" and haunts all Mobas and MMOs (prime examples: LoL, Dota, Wow etc.). Constant periodic balance changes keep the game from getting stale too quickly.

[ChargingParacerParacer]

People like to claim that but as a single player making the game stale is precisely what these hand holding, creativity stifling nerfs have done. They are exactly what killed the charm of the rest of this game so quickly. This game could have easily been a game that kept me entertained for years with the stat freedom it used to provide. They decided to force a change that was only needed for dpme players onto everyone though. 

PVPers just need to accept the fact that they are choosing to play against other players that are always going to gamd the system and see this mode for what it's always been and what it always will be. Asking the devs to gimp everything into mediocrity affects all players including non pvpers will eventually just leave no one happy.

[Probitas]

5 hours ago, DaGoodNamesWereTaken said:

Ive been in my fair share of pvp and griffins are op af. Can pick you off any tame, has speed advantage, 1-2 shots people who are picked, auto harvests, speed can bypass plant x and turrets.

 

My personal opinion is nerf the health per level gain, dive has a cool down like ptera roll, Lower pick aoe.

Also you have to give every flyer in the game except the quetz with a platform saddle the same dive mechanic the griffin has. Griffins still have more tools but argies especially need the dive mechanic enabled. Pteras should stay how they are, wyverns need maybe a slower glide then other tames.

 

 

Flying dinos should be faster than land dinos, otherwise birds would not exist as there is no advantage to flying. And ptero can pick as well. May as well nerf the Wyverns to dust too.

I will state it again, I think you guys just want all dinos to be grounded because you can't win with your Gigas anymore.

How come pteros can't pick micro raptors, they are actually bigger than compys? I've seen hawks eat pigeons - same situation.

Why can't the Griffin pick the same as an Argy, it's actually bigger?

There are a lot of logic problems in the game design that have nothing to do with balance, but they are there. But nothing is out of balance if everyone has the ability to do it. That is so obvious I do not know why people can't figure that out. I truly believe it's stubbornness or refusal to admit it. And some crazy desire to turn this game into an MMO with Rock-Paper-Scissors combat. I think this is why a lot of MMO players don't like FPS games, because there is no advantage whatsoever beyond what you can find and use in the game, just like ARK.

[Plzpizza]

I think they are fine the way they are.

[X111]

10 hours ago, DaGoodNamesWereTaken said:

Ive been in my fair share of pvp and griffins are op af. Can pick you off any tame, has speed advantage, 1-2 shots people who are picked, auto harvests, speed can bypass plant x and turrets.

 

My personal opinion is nerf the health per level gain, dive has a cool down like ptera roll, Lower pick aoe.

Also you have to give every flyer in the game except the quetz with a platform saddle the same dive mechanic the griffin has. Griffins still have more tools but argies especially need the dive mechanic enabled. Pteras should stay how they are, wyverns need maybe a slower glide then other tames.

 

 

and then when people start using the phoenix I suppose that's going to have to be nerfed as well?

as it was said before people aren't evolving their methods of survival, what did you do when the giga was introduced?

what did you do when you got yourself a giga and the fire arrow was introduced?

its the same story over and over again

wyverns are too powerful, nerf their stam, their normal speed is too much, lets add in a stam consumption per x amount of time in flight. players have 200-300% movement speed on their wyverns, lets remove the ability to upgrade movement because there were already complaints about the ptera issue etc etc well done to all the players who couldn't do what others have and got WC and the Devs to play the game for you