Re-balancing the Fliers, Mk. 2!

[Airius]

How do you put a price on the months, and months of real time my tribe and I put in to making our flyers what they were?

How will you give us that time back? What will you define as a balance?

To be fair we didn't just breed fliers. We bred land dinos as well.

So, tell me, what kind of price you place on our time?

[simu]

13 hours ago, TheRightHand said:

...

Without taking forever to deep-dive into this stuff, the one thing that I think everyone can agree with, or that most people seem to agree with, is that "it had to happen", and "you guys should have just done it less".

Both of these statements are true, ...

not true, I do not agree with the first statement, and and I've seen lot of people that also do not!

Quote

..., but in the long run, the way we choose to make these changes are with broad strokes, followed by incremental buffs. That's how we work. There are other companies that do it differently, and that's good. For an in-development product, however, this is how we chose to do it. The end result will be the same, the only difference is where the outrage is felt. Either you guys get furious at us over several weeks as we nerf your fliers again and again, making them weaker and weaker, and you hate us for that, or we do it all at once and buff them, and you hate us all at once and then things get better.

...

well, there is a third possibility, some hate this extreme change so much that they'll stop at all... if it was done step after step, without totally taking away flying fun, probably less players would quit. BTW I was on the verge of buying the DLC, but the way this happened is holding me back.

Just a bit background about me: I mostly play single player, seldom PvE; I am not that much into dinos, it was more the flying (real life related) and some building that interested me. Now flying is not fun anymore and building never really was, too many glitches. Also I do not like leveling games that much, but I must say that ARK was making me change about that - taming and leveling the animals is fun, deciding if the Ptero should be fast, or just able to transport . But it's no fun having spent lot of time, maybe 100 in game hours, to raise a Ptero that now is not faster than sprinting, considering the time needed to regain stamina. This is not very believable (reality would not be that correct term, I know), its also killing the immersion. And, actually, I am having more problem with weight/stamina since I have put most points into that and now I can barely fly naked...

Only to inform you the way you see (some of) your customers is not that correct...

[NagyAbonyiAttila]

I just have one simple question: how on earth can I farm wyvern milk or steal eggs now, when the wild wyverns are faster then I on an argy?

[szabiferi]

12 minutes ago, Milsurp said:

Let's split Tek and Dino Survival into two different game modes and let server operators choose which ones they want to host and play. 

Then we compare the numbers and see what the player base really wanted all along

Nah, WC management and development is not interested in such experiment. Because there would be a possibility it turns out they are not gods with eternal knowledge,  and the results would contradict their dreams...

[CTMalum]

Just now, NagyAbonyiAttila said:

I just have one simple question: how on earth can I farm wyvern milk or steal eggs now, when the wild wyverns are faster then I on an argy?

You can't, because the thought that went behind this balance patch was excessively poor.  There are a lot of things in the game that are going to be impossible because of these changes.

[szabiferi]

1 minute ago, NagyAbonyiAttila said:

I just have one simple question: how on earth can I farm wyvern milk or steal eggs now, when the wild wyverns are faster then I on an argy?

Why would you do that? Right now the wyvern is pointless to have, you cant use its special attack in the air (because it drains its stamina, you just fall from the sky after 4-5 breath) and its so slow you can reach anywhere on it. 

Otherwise there are some special tactics (like using the ptera special attack when the chasing wyvern shoots you, so you outrun it for a moment), what makes it possible... but again: why would you have a wyvern NOW? 

[Twin]

People seem to have missed that this is just the first round of nerfs and they plan on "balancing" other dinos later.  I can only guess how much fun the other dino nerfs will be:

 

Doed and Anky - after harvesting x amount of resources they ablate their tails and you have to wait for them to grow a new one.

Rhino - same thing but with its horn

Bronto - Can carry massive amounts of weight but can only move 10ft without having to rest.

etc etc

[NagyAbonyiAttila]

1 minute ago, szabiferi said:

Why would you do that? Right now the wyvern is pointless to have, you cant use its special attack in the air (because it drains its stamina, you just fall from the sky after 4-5 breath) and its so slow you can reach anywhere on it. 

Otherwise there are some special tactics (like using the ptera special attack when the chasing wyvern shoots you, so you outrun it for a moment), what makes it possible... but again: why would you have a wyvern NOW? 

I just don't have a ptera on SE  But your point is also right... We just played months, to get our first ever wyvern, we have some decent eggs now, just wanted to hatch them  We can forget to ever ride a wyvern as I see now.

[szabiferi]

6 minutes ago, Airius said:

How do you put a price on the months, and months of real time my tribe and I put in to making our flyers what they were?

How will you give us that time back? What will you define as a balance?

To be fair we didn't just breed fliers. We bred land dinos as well.

So, tell me, what kind of price you place on our time?

This is what WC devs always forget.. they are not developing an arena shooter like counterstrike, where it is irrelevant what they change, peole can adapt in a minute. 

This game is basically an MMO, where a bad decision invalidates days, weeks or months of work. Like breeding a great ptera or quetz takes lots of hours, planing, even people need to wake up in the night because of this imprinting mechanism...

And then a dev come, and with a single stroke it destroys it. 

I understand it is an EA, but WC should understand that player commitment is valuable. 

[szabiferi]

Just now, Twin said:

People seem to have missed that this is just the first round of nerfs and they plan on "balancing" other dinos later.  I can only guess how much fun the other dino nerfs will be:

 

Doed and Anky - after harvesting x amount of resources they ablate their tails and you have to wait for them to grow a new one.

Rhino - same thing but with its horn

Bronto - Can carry massive amounts of weight but can only move 10ft without having to rest.

etc etc

+1, lets do that. 

My proposal, when you attack with a rex, 1-10 of its teeth should fall out. Once all of its teeth lost, it have to wait 5 days until new ones grown. 

[hollander]

Don't apply this "update" on xbox one please!

[Ranger1]

6 minutes ago, szabiferi said:

Why would you do that? Right now the wyvern is pointless to have, you cant use its special attack in the air (because it drains its stamina, you just fall from the sky after 4-5 breath) and its so slow you can reach anywhere on it. 

Otherwise there are some special tactics (like using the ptera special attack when the chasing wyvern shoots you, so you outrun it for a moment), what makes it possible... but again: why would you have a wyvern NOW? 

You guys do realize you don't always have to be airborne to use the Wyverns breath weapon right? 

[szabiferi]

2 minutes ago, NagyAbonyiAttila said:

I just don't have a ptera on SE  But your point is also right... We just played months, to get our first ever wyvern, we have some decent eggs now, just wanted to hatch them  We can forget to ever ride a wyvern as I see now.

I say, keep it in the fridge and wait... lets see if the devs run out of weed what they smoke and fix this atrocity they did

(you can bring in a ptera via server transfer, if you are on official server or playing on an unofficial server cluster having both maps.. like I do, on the Hun Hydra group.)

[Bogger]

Although i'm not going to make any of my own suggestions,i don't think wildcard ever acknowledges the fact that tribes will always block important routes off,dino spawn rich areas and the resources needed for endgame and just plant their stupid fortresses and turrets/plant x everywhere they can.You have people saying"good,it creates conflict zones".I say,no it really doesn't,since transferring and unlimited allies exist,you simply have a few ruling each server at the very least and they block all the good stuff off for everyone else who will eventually either become the large tribes slave or leave,and at the very most you'll have mega tribes holding many servers at once.Flyers were never a solution but they are "somewhat" a bandaid to this in that it allows players to get to resources they otherwise couldn't get too and to build in hard to reach places which gives them a slightly better chance at suriviving more than 5 minutes.Yeah,the ptera was being bred into a monstrosity and i'm fine with them being nerfed hard,fine even with lowered speed across the board as it was ridiculous that flyers could ignore base defense so easily...but hitting weight/platform and stamina isn't something that should be touched imo,or at the most very very lightly touched.

[szabiferi]

1 minute ago, ranger1presents said:

You guys do realize you don't always have to be airborne to use the dragons breath weapon right? 

Yes. Will it prove my statement is false? The lord of the sky - a flier - cant use its attack airborne? 

[Ranger1]

1 minute ago, szabiferi said:

I say, keep it in the fridge and wait... lets see if the devs run out of weed what they smoke and fix this atrocity they did

Heh, according to many folks commenting, the solution should be simple.  Only use your flier to get to the top of the chasm.  From there use your amazing foot speed or a fast land animal to easily outrun the Wyvern.  Problem solved.

[szabiferi]

3 minutes ago, hollander said:

Don't apply this "update" on xbox one please!

You will get it, dont worry

 

Except if you support the fellow PC players and join our crusade!

[catnip]

Looking at the chart posted by @TheRightHand the "buffs" to the flyers are measly at best, and in some instances are actually further nerfs, especially for the Ptera. Pteras have their Health, Stamina, weight, and damage further reduced.And the 'increase' in stamina is practically non-existant How you could think that this will fly with folks who are already angry about the devastation wrought by the original nerf is beyond me. It looks as if PVE is not even taken into consideration IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM by this chart. These "improvements" do nothing to make the flyers viable on those servers. And the measures taken to address the major complaints regarding wyverns about stamina and speed are laughable at best. Why bother going to the major hassle of getting the egg and raising a wyvern if it's only going to be used as a decoration for your barn?

It's almost as though they are trying to drive away old players, or force people to pay for private servers. Sounds like a money ploy to me!

 

[Ranger1]

Just now, szabiferi said:

Yes. Will it prove my statement is false? The lord of the sky - a flier - cant use its attack airborne? 

Who says it can't?  You just need to think about what your doing and when to do it when airborne, and rely on your bite more than your breath weapon.

[szabiferi]

Just now, ranger1presents said:

Heh, according to many folks commenting, the solution should be simple.  Only use your flier to get to the top of the chasm.  From there use your amazing foot speed or a fast land animal to easily outrun the Wyvern.  Problem solved.

Wish I could have that optimism what you have. Honestly, and without sarcasm. 

But dont you think, having a land dino with fast speed is the same abuse of its speed as it was in case of the fliers?

Why you accept that a land dino can outrun the wyvern, but if you do it on a ptera, its an abuse what need to be balanced? 

[szabiferi]

1 minute ago, ranger1presents said:

Who says it can't?  You just need to think about what your doing and when to do it when airborne, and rely on your bite more than your breath weapon.

Eh... if you are aware of the damage and precision of that special attack, you know having a couple shots have no damage value.  

The Rex is the dino, what have the fight style what you want to enforce on the Wyvern. That supposed to fight landed, not the wyvern. 

[hollander]

Will this basicly force me to ride my thylacoleo to get around 

I don't understand why wildcard would implement such a change!

 

[PoliScikosis]

Just my 2 cents,

1) I do believe a decent sized nerf of flyers was in order. Although I think hitting speed AND stam at the same time was excessive.

2) I am fine with not being able to put points into speed (providing there is at least 1 way to increase speed on a flyer.... (my idea would be allow a speed mutation to be put in.... )

3) reset ALL level increases on existing flyers so we can distribute the way we want so we dont have to scrap all our tames to start fresh

[PoliScikosis]

3 minutes ago, hollander said:

I don't understand why wildcard would implement such a change!

 

because the way flyers were was to trivialize progression when starting out. (once you got a ptera, you had easy access to metal, crystal, oil, pearls, scouting, taming, etc.) AND because the old way meant that raiding was 2 dimensional... (war quetz required)

[Ranger1]

25 minutes ago, szabiferi said:

Eh... if you are aware of the damage and precision of that special attack, you know having a couple shots have no damage value.  

The Rex is the dino, what have the fight style what you want to enforce on the Wyvern. That supposed to fight landed, not the wyvern. 

I didn't say the Wyvern had to land to fight, only if it wants to use it's powerful breath weapon repeatedly.

Think about it this way, the Wyvern has an extremely powerful ranged attack.  Allowing it to be used repeatedly while flying out of reach isn't really a good game balance decision.

So instead they can get in one or two shots while airborne, if they want to go that route, or they can get in much better sustained damage by repeatedly biting from the air and still remain highly mobile.  In this way you can't just blast everything into oblivion from safely overhead.

Now if they want to land then the bite becomes less important because the breath weapon can be used much more often.  They lose the mobility of being airborne and are much more vulnerable to counter attack, but they gain a lot of damage output and accuracy. 

Knowing when to stay airborne, and when to land in a strategically advantageous position (say from on top of a large boulder), becomes part of the balance and the technique for successfully using the Wyvern in combat.

Just some food for thought.