Why flying making content trivial isn't a bad thing.

[OnePotatoChip]

2 minutes ago, Lumitesi said:

I did not say you could trivialize all content. I said that you could outrun a rex. and you can. You can outrun mostly anything. You just need to have your eyes open. Like on flyers right now if you have to go near or inside Redwood. And of course that if you're travelling on a ground mount you just go around mountains to avoid Allos and Gigas. I think that much is obvious. Once again that is even more time consuming as you can't go straight but have to go around the mountain. And that involves absolutely no skill or depth, it's just extending time needed.

Mm. Yeah, gotta keep those eyes open. I don't know what map you spawn on where Allos and Gigas stay tucked into the mountains, but I can assure you they very much like forests. But, see, here's the discrepancy: I go around the Redwood, I'm still subject to everything from Theri to Rex to Alphas. You go above/around the Redwood on a Ptera, and you're just on cruise. What do you have to look out for? Nothing. Which one seems more like its trivializing things?  

12 minutes ago, Lumitesi said:

So you're telling me you can cross the whole Island in 8m with a Terror Bird or Thyla? Without putting every point in speed and making it absolutely useless for everything else? Also notice that if you have a mount that can do the whole island in 8m you're basically trivializing content again because not even a wild Giga can catch you. So I guess ground mounts should be nerfed too?

I was talking about the Galli specifically in that instance; sorry for any misunderstandings. With a Thyla or a Terror Bird, you're looking at something like fifteen minutes. And that's to cross the whole Island. I'm guessing you and your friend don't live on exact opposite shores, so a Galli would jet you there. As that's it's purpose. And, no, it wouldn't be trivializing content. That Galli is still subject to everything on the ground, whether it be fall damage, surprise animals, etc. A flyer is subject to nothing. Not to mention that a Galli is practically useless for anything other than travel, unlike flyers, most of which people assign multiple roles. 

18 minutes ago, Lumitesi said:

Ok quick question, do you even breed bro? cause it doesn't seem like you do tbh.

Um. Yeah? Yeah, I have, famalamadingdong. The tribe had something we called Breeding Day. One person would attend the babies, while the others would hunt and then come back to deposit meat. A few Brontos and Paracers from my end, and I could just about call it a day. Then again, my 'few' might be relative, because it just didn't feel exhaustive to me. Nothing was better than taking Kenai (my Bear) out for a hunt. 

[iAmE]

1 minute ago, OnePotatoChip said:

Which one seems more like its trivializing things?

But they both trivialize things. Sure, not to the same amount, but very very similar amounts. You run down a river outside the swamp with a Galli, you are subject to no more danger then a Ptera flying at sky cap. Which is zero. 

My question to you would be this:

Is trivialization of this specific content good, or bad, for gameplay experience?

You will not die either way. You are just travelling from point A to point B. One way takes 5 minutes, the other takes 8 minutes. Which would you rather do, and which is better for gameplay?

[OnePotatoChip]

3 minutes ago, iAmE said:

But they both trivialize things. Sure, not to the same amount, but very very similar amounts. You run down a river outside the swamp with a Galli, you are subject to no more danger then a Ptera flying at sky cap. Which is zero. 

My question to you would be this:

Is trivialization of this specific content good, or bad, for gameplay experience?

You will not die either way. You are just travelling from point A to point B. One way takes 5 minutes, the other takes 8 minutes. Which would you rather do, and which is better for gameplay?

Okay, so my Galli might be safe on that specific path. That I probably had to walk it to, geography and all, in order to get that measure of safety, but okay, fine. What specific path is safe for the guy on a Ptera? The open skies are his path and it's completely empty. Just cruise control, keeping a half-eye on stamina. I mean, at this point, what's the reason not to use a flyer? Why not just dump everything else in the game to save the servers some stress? Besides, y'know, Quetzals, Snails, Beavers  Anks and Theris. 

And that question is completely subjective. Personally, I'm looking to get everything I can out of this game, from the scary moments to the not-so-scary. My gameplay experience would benefit from taking the 'scenic route' as it were. Becoming a taskmaster that just flew everytime out of convenience, I'd be bored out of my skull in short order. 

Don't get me wrong, flyers have their place. But it just shouldn't be every place. 

[Lumitesi]

3 minutes ago, iAmE said:

But they both trivialize things. Sure, not to the same amount, but very very similar amounts. You run down a river outside the swamp with a Galli, you are subject to no more danger then a Ptera flying at sky cap. Which is zero. 

My question to you would be this:

Is trivialization of this specific content good, or bad, for gameplay experience?

You will not die either way. You are just travelling from point A to point B. One way takes 5 minutes, the other takes 8 minutes. Which would you rather do, and which is better for gameplay?

This. It's all the same. You cannot defend a flyer nerf due to trivializing content without going into ground mounts too.

Also, this thread was about trivializition not being a bad thing. Sometimes it's good for gameplay experience. Sometimes you just want to go from A to B, fast and without a hassle. Sometimes you wanna grab your Rex or Saber and run the swamps. Taking away our choice won't make the game better.

18 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

I was talking about the Galli specifically in that instance; sorry for any misunderstandings. With a Thyla or a Terror Bird, you're looking at something like fifteen minutes. And that's to cross the whole Island. I'm guessing you and your friend don't live on exact opposite shores, so a Galli would jet you there. As that's it's purpose. And, no, it wouldn't be trivializing content. That Galli is still subject to everything on the ground, whether it be fall damage, surprise animals, etc. A flyer is subject to nothing. Not to mention that a Galli is practically useless for anything other than travel, unlike flyers, most of which people assign multiple roles. 

So tell me what a Galli is really subjected to? Which animals can really catch up or even get to you unless you are holding W and looking somewhere else? Also if Pteras get Barrel roll nerfed what else other than travel will they be useful for? And is Argy or Quetz speed that high that it's a problem they are useful for other things?

 

24 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

Um. Yeah? Yeah, I have, famalamadingdong. The tribe had something we called Breeding Day. One person would attend the babies, while the others would hunt and then come back to deposit meat. A few Brontos and Paracers from my end, and I could just about call it a day. Then again, my 'few' might be relative, because it just didn't feel exhaustive to me. Nothing was better than taking Kenai (my Bear) out for a hunt. 

Ok cool try raising 3+ babies on your own then we'll talk about it  (and no I'm not complaining that it is too hard) also this is getting off-topic, no point going on with this subject.

[LilNastyGurl]

I noticed that if the only flyer people use is the Pelagornis, suddenly flying doesn't become a problem anymore.

Pteras, Argents and Quetzals are the problem.

I love flyers, and don't care about trivializing parts of the game I don't care about (yeah, I got places to be, don't want to challenge every saber, every raptor pack and every flock of troodon on the way there), because the Survival part of the game isn't survival at all, more around the lines of "gradually put up with less waiting and dying", as you acquire fridges, better armor, and industrial amenities.

To nerf the Pteras would mean to give up a part of the game I actually enjoy (BEING WORTHLESS AND USING THEM AS A CRUTCH TO SOLVE EVERY PROBLEM I HAVE IN THE GAME LOL) and would rather they stay the same.

[OnePotatoChip]

6 minutes ago, Lumitesi said:

This. It's all the same. You cannot defend a flyer nerf due to trivializing content without going into ground mounts too.

Also, this thread was about trivializition not being a bad thing. Sometimes it's good for gameplay experience. Sometimes you just want to go from A to B, fast and without a hassle. Sometimes you wanna grab your Rex or Saber and run the swamps. Taking away our choice won't make the game better.

Of course I can. Let's look at it like this. There are several factors I need to consider before I take my Thyla or Bear or whatever anywhere. What's the terrain like? What spawns there? Which way is more stamina efficient? Which mount would make this trip better? Etc. Your factors generally boil down to 'where do I park'. That's telling enough right there. And even my mount that makes my treks the most trivial (let's go with Galli for argument's sake), pales in comparison to the flyer because I'm still considering a number of factors should I run into trouble. Which way is clear of threats? Will I get stuck there? Am I too heavy to run? What can I sacrifice if so? Flyer? Up Up and Away. 

And you guys keep talking about choice, but there is no choice. Most are going to choose the easier way every time. We're witnessing this right now. It's not so much a choice as it is one option has 'WINNER WINNER WINNER' hovering over its head in blinking lights. 

[OnePotatoChip]

24 minutes ago, Lumitesi said:

So tell me what a Galli is really subjected to? Which animals can really catch up or even get to you unless you are holding W and looking somewhere else? Also if Pteras get Barrel roll nerfed what else other than travel will they be useful for? And is Argy or Quetz speed that high that it's a problem they are useful for other things?

Terrain, obviously. That Galli's speed means diddly if it gets stuck while a pack of Allos is bearing down on you. As far as I know, the sky lacks terrain. As for the Argent and Quetz, it's not their speed (although Quetz can get quite speedy), but their full range of motion. While also not being subject to any sort of danger while in the air. 

[Lumitesi]

2 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

Of course I can. Let's look at it like this. There are several factors I need to consider before I take my Thyla or Bear or whatever anywhere. What's the terrain like? What spawns there? Which way is more stamina efficient? Which mount would make this trip better?

Same as when I'm going somewhere using a flyer I have several factors to consider. Am I going from point A to B as fast as I can and taking no weight? Ptera. Am I going to be scouting for high lvl dinos? Tapejara for the increased mobility. Am I gonna be carrying something out of a taming pen or to an obelisk? Argy or Quetz if it's big enough. And it goes on. You see, what you said is just short sighted and it's really easy to see that you're being completely partial. Trying to look at both sides of things is always a good exercise to do when having an argument.

 

7 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

And you guys keep talking about choice, but there is no choice. Most are going to choose the easier way every time. We're witnessing this right now. It's not so much a choice as it is one option has 'WINNER WINNER WINNER' hovering over its head in blinking lights. 

You say "there is no choice" then right after you say "Most are going to choose" so what is it after all? And as I told you, alot of times I could go somewhere by flyer but I choose a ground mount. Even today I went to Red Obelisk to do a trade, a Tapejara for a Thyla. I live near the Green Obe, still I chose to go on Tape and take a Thyla saddle with me so I could come back by land. There IS choice. I could have more easily just flown on a Wyvern or Quetz with Tape on follow and carried the Thyla back. But I didn't, because as I've said, I like to take my dinos (especially new ones) and running around. But sometimes I just don't have the patience or time and it's good to have a choice.

Also I've never really understood this "I like doing A, but B is a little easier  so I'm going to defend B getting nerfed to the ground so everyone has to do A like me" mentality.

[iAmE]

31 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

Okay, so my Galli might be safe on that specific path.

But you probably are unless you're specifically trying to put yourself in danger.

31 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

That I probably had to walk it to, geography and all, in order to get that measure of safety, but okay, fine.

I can't imagine short of standing still for literally fifteen minutes next to a Rex, what would ever kill you. Particularly at the speed a Gali moves at. 

31 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

 Just cruise control, keeping a half-eye on stamina. I mean, at this point, what's the reason not to use a flyer? Why not just dump everything else in the game to save the servers some stress? Besides, y'know, Quetzals, Snails, Beavers  Anks and Theris. 

Because people like you exist, and options are the name of the game in a sandbox survival sim? I accept that you don't want to do things optimally. You accept that I may not want to do things the "Fun" way. Why should the options to do both ways not exist in the game?

 

31 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

And that question is completely subjective. Personally, I'm looking to get everything I can out of this game, from the scary moments to the not-so-scary. My gameplay experience would benefit from taking the 'scenic route' as it were. Becoming a taskmaster that just flew everytime out of convenience, I'd be bored out of my skull in short order. 

How is that relevant? How is what you, or I, want to do relevant here, exactly?

Why are the Developers nerfing dinos because they don't find the experience fun. Why are they defining what fun is in a sandbox survival sim. This game is, largely, about how you choose to play it. If I want to be a taskmaster and do everything the most "Uberl33t" efficient way, and fly from point A to point B to get there twice as quickly, why are they taking that choice away? Why does that matter or impact anyone at all?

31 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

Don't get me wrong, flyers have their place. But it just shouldn't be every place. 

They aren't every place. That's kind of the thing though. Everyone likes to exaggerate, but Flyers are, mainly, about getting from point A to point B fast. That's all that they're best at. They don't gather meat faster then a Therizino. They don't kill things faster then half a dozen or more dinos. They're everywhere in PvP, but this nerf isn't really even about PvP. 

[Lumitesi]

12 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

Terrain, obviously. That Galli's speed means diddly if it gets stuck while a pack of Allos is bearing down on you. As far as I know, the sky lacks terrain.

Yes this is true. I'll give you that. But an argument could be made that most of the challenge that the terrain offers is getting stuck on places your dinos can't get out (which still happens alot) or getting stuck on rocks that wouldn't stop an ant.

 

16 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

As for the Argent and Quetz, it's not their speed (although Quetz can get quite speedy), but their full range of motion. While also not being subject to any sort of danger while in the air. 

Yes I agree. But why not solve that by adding danger to the air instead of just nerfing them? Would be much more interesting no?

[OnePotatoChip]

2 minutes ago, Lumitesi said:

Same as when I'm going somewhere using a flyer I have several factors to consider. Am I going from point A to B as fast as I can and taking no weight? Ptera. Am I going to be scouting for high lvl dinos? Tapejara for the increased mobility. Am I gonna be carrying something out of a taming pen or to an obelisk? Argy or Quetz if it's big enough. And it goes on. You see, what you said is just short sighted and it's really easy to see that you're being completely partial. Trying to look at both sides of things is always a good exercise to do when having an argument.

I want you to look at your list and look at mine. The key difference is risk, that content WC is talking about. I'm weighing risks, you're weighing whether you're gonna have Pizza or Burgers for dinner. My decisions carry a heavier weight than yours. And I'm not being partial; it's just an objective fact that flyers are the safer option and, thus, the popular option. 

 

[iAmE]

3 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

I want you to look at your list and look at mine. The key difference is risk, that content WC is talking about. I'm weighing risks, you're weighing whether you're gonna have Pizza or Burgers for dinner. My decisions carry a heavier weight than yours. And I'm not being partial; it's just an objective fact that flyers are the safer option and, thus, the popular option. 

 

You are being partial, because you aren't being objective.

The objective reason Flyers are the most popular mode of transportation, is because they are the fastest. Not the safest. That is what Wildcard has deemed an issue. Not "Safety". They said it invalidates most of the Ark "Experience", Ark's experience isn't about danger. Once you have a decently fast Raptor, or a 60+ Rex, there is almost 0 danger in the hands of someone with eyes. 

[DinoDash]

I think the best way to nerf fliers is to make it so they can barely carry anything, making it necessary to use land dinos to carry large quantities of items.

[iAmE]

3 minutes ago, DinoDash said:

I think the best way to nerf fliers is to make it so they can barely carry anything, making it necessary to use land dinos to carry large quantities of items.

And then you make the grinding to make buildings/items/bullets/guns almost intolerable, because Quetzal Farming is so necessary in the game, unless they up the gather rate. Again. Or do something about the Anky over-encumbering itself in one swing. 

[Tycoon01]

Who gives a raptor about pve?

[iAmE]

4 minutes ago, Tycoon01 said:

Who gives a raptor about pve?

The devs apparently. And they give more of a raptor about it then the fact that PvE bosses are unbeatable without abusing bugs/exploits. 

[OnePotatoChip]

17 minutes ago, iAmE said:

They aren't every place. That's kind of the thing though. Everyone likes to exaggerate, but Flyers are, mainly, about getting from point A to point B fast. That's all that they're best at. They don't gather meat faster then a Therizino. They don't kill things faster then half a dozen or more dinos. They're everywhere in PvP, but this nerf isn't really even about PvP.

Nope. It's gotten to the point where people would rather try to kill Alphas with their bred Pteras than with their bred Rex. Why? Because it's the safer option. Not the fastest, the safer. Things get hairy, you can pull out, force feed the Ptera and get back into it. Putting that distance between a Rex and that Alpha Rex/Carno is gonna be much more of an issue. They will gather meat with their Ptera, they'll cave with their Ptera if they can. It's become more than a means of locomotion, it's become a One-Stop-Shop for almost all of your ARK related needs. 

11 minutes ago, iAmE said:

Ark's experience isn't about danger. Once you have a decently fast Raptor, or a 60+ Rex, there is almost 0 danger in the hands of someone with eyes. 

And I recognize that tamed animals overshadow wild ones. WC recognizes it, too; they've said as much. And I'll be patiently waiting for that nerf when its turn comes. And it is coming. Until then, we're getting a flyer nerf and the game will be better for it. One thing at a time. But, I'm gonna do an experiment. I'm gonna try surviving with a fast Raptor and then surviving with a Ptera, and then judge which was easiest. 

[Tycoon01]

Pve is garbage and if any of you bluebies think your gameplay should in any way affect the gameplay of pvp you should uninstall.

 

I can only imagine dealing with the kind of pillar spam or mass lag bullpoop that goes on in pve. Without any natural order, pve servers grow like an infestation.

 

You're playing a SURVIVAL game and your only opponent is accidently hitting E while flying or the horrid dino ai? Give me a break.

[OnePotatoChip]

25 minutes ago, Lumitesi said:

Yes this is true. I'll give you that. But an argument could be made that most of the challenge that the terrain offers is getting stuck on places your dinos can't get out (which still happens alot) or getting stuck on rocks that wouldn't stop an ant.

 

Yes I agree. But why not solve that by adding danger to the air instead of just nerfing them? Would be much more interesting no?

Both sounds good. If we're truly gonna make this a game of options, then flyers can't be such clear cut winners in every category, can't outclass land animals in almost every fashion. I don't want them nerf'd until the point of pointlessness, but I want more people to use their favorites. That's what this is about, choice, right? I just wanna open up more for people, and a more even playing field between the two classes would only help that.

[usrevenge]

Fliers need a nerf because Fliers literally become the gist of your used tames.

 

You don't go to war on a rex, you go to war on a dinky little pteranadon and barrel roll and attempt to pick up enemies 

 

Hell the flier nerf could literally be you can't dismount players with them and suddenly Fliers are heavily nerfed.

[iAmE]

7 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

Nope. It's gotten to the point where people would rather try to kill Alphas with their bred Pteras than with their bred Rex. Why? Because it's the safer option. Not the fastest, the safer.

 

Again, you aren't being objective. The reason they kill it with the Ptera is indeed, because it's the fastest, most reliable way. It might take half an hour to kill it (Which is why most people won't do it), but it would likely take half an hour (Or more) to walk that rex or giga out to the Alpha to eat it. It's also no where near safer, because it's a sum zero outcome. You kill the Alpha and don't die either way. Almost guaranteed

 

7 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

It's become more than a means of locomotion, it's become a One-Stop-Shop for almost all of your ARK related needs. 

Of course it has. That's what happens when the map is the size it is. You look for things the fastest way possible, then kill them the fastest way possible. The fact that Ptera's are the fastest way to do both isn't because the Ptera is overpowered, it's because the map is so large that you can kill something with a Ptera before you could even get the Rex to the scene. 

 

7 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

 

And I recognize that tamed animals overshadow wild ones. WC recognizes it, too; they've said as much. And I'll be patiently waiting for that nerf when its turn comes. And it is coming.

They've already done so. Like three times. The reality is that tamed creatures beat wild creatures because the human factor is a thing that exists and one that they will never be able to appropriately address at large. That's why things like Bosses exist.

 

7 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

But, I'm gonna do an experiment. I'm gonna try surviving with a fast Raptor and then surviving with a Ptera, and then judge which was easiest. 

As has been amply shown in this thread, you can't be trusted to be impartial, or objective on the matter. The reality is that, in practice, you won't die with either mount. That is the human factor. Welcome to balancing sandbox games, or rather, welcome to the maddening reality that is the "Balance within Imbalance" that is largely present in any Sandbox game. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Tycoon01 said:

Pve is garbage and if any of you bluebies think your gameplay should in any way affect the gameplay of pvp you should uninstall.

 

I can only imagine dealing with the kind of pillar spam or mass lag bullpoop that goes on in pve. Without any natural order, pve servers grow like an infestation.

 

You're playing a SURVIVAL game and your only opponent is accidently hitting E while flying or the horrid dino ai? Give me a break.

Tell that to the Developers. They've already stated that the PvE experience is the driving force behind the Flyer nerf. 

[OnePotatoChip]

1 minute ago, iAmE said:

As has been amply shown in this thread, you can't be trusted to be impartial, or objective on the matter. The reality is that, in practice, you won't die with either mount. That is the human factor. Welcome to balancing sandbox games, or rather, welcome to the maddening reality that is the "Balance within Imbalance" that is largely present in any Sandbox game.

It's weird that we both think the other is being impartial, haha, so I guess we'll just have to accept that. It seems to me that so many are pro-flyer and just don't want to change the status quo and will do anything to protect it. Personally, I believe that you're far more likely to be faced with death when riding a Raptor than when you're on a Ptera. Perhaps we should get someone else to do it, then. It'd be interesting to see. 

[iAmE]

5 minutes ago, OnePotatoChip said:

It's weird that we both think the other is being impartial, haha, so I guess we'll just have to accept that. It seems to me that so many are pro-flyer and just don't want to change the status quo and will do anything to protect it. Personally, I believe that you're far more likely to be faced with death when riding a Raptor than when you're on a Ptera. Perhaps we should get someone else to do it, then. It'd be interesting to see. 

I don't think you're being impartial. That's the rub.

I would like to see the status quo change, but I don't think that making EVERYONE take half and hour or more to get anywhere to do anything, is the solution. Flyers wouldn't be so ubiquitously used if Land Dinos weren't so bloody slow, let alone limited by terrain. I'll be honest. I wouldn't mind taking my Rex or Giga out more, but the problem is taking the Rex or Giga out any serious distance is an hour or two commitment. 

We have similar opinions, on things being a problem, simply disagree on how to fix it. I think everyone going faster would be better. You want everyone to go slower. Different sides of the same coin. 

[OnePotatoChip]

Just now, iAmE said:

I don't think you're being impartial. That's the rub.

I would like to see the status quo change, but I don't think that making EVERYONE take half and hour or more to get anywhere to do anything, is the solution. Flyers wouldn't be so ubiquitously used if Land Dinos weren't so bloody slow, let alone limited by terrain. I'll be honest. I wouldn't mind taking my Rex or Giga out more, but the problem is taking the Rex or Giga out any serious distance is an hour or two commitment. 

Yeeeeah, I meant the opposite, sorry. And I also don't think it'd take anywhere near half an hour or so to do anything with a Bear or whatever. There are metal nodes closer than most think and most other resources are usually within arms reach. But that's just from my experience; maybe you've got your own that say differently. Sorry if anything I said came off as an attack, by the way. If it's anything to note, I was sorta fond of my Argie that I tamed in the event my tribemates needed me there and then. Still just preferred my Bear. 

[iAmE]

1 minute ago, OnePotatoChip said:

Yeeeeah, I meant the opposite, sorry. And I also don't think it'd take anywhere near half an hour or so to do anything with a Bear or whatever. There are metal nodes closer than most think and most other resources are usually within arms reach. But that's just from my experience; maybe you've got your own that say differently. Sorry if anything I said came off as an attack, by the way. If it's anything to note, I was sorta fond of my Argie that I tamed in the event my tribemates needed me there and then. Still just preferred my Bear. 

What are Bears used for to do anything? They're the fastest decent combat mount, but they're not exactly good, or the best, at anything. I was talking about something like Metal Farming. Sure, there are metal nodes within 5 minutes of my base, but if I want to do anything major, like actually build more then 15 walls, I have to head to one of the major metal areas, namely mountains or the Volcano. Then I have to bring something to mine with (An Anky, good luck walking an Anky to any of those places, or even to half the nodes on the mountains) and something to haul it back (Because you know, Ankys encumber themselves with one tail swing). Or we could talk about farming Flint/Gunpowder. Again, you can get small amounts of it nearby, but for any major amount of anything, you need to venture far away from most bases. Same thing with Charcoal/Wood. 

 

Realistically, I think, as a PvP player, the game is imbalanced. I need to spend weeks preparing the resources to do half a days worth of PvP, and that's with Quetzal Farming. I would like to see that get sped up. Not slow down.