jjfats Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 On 11/11/2016 at 0:18 PM, DaGoodNamesWereTaken said: Lets be honest here, even if they wiped the server you and your friends would be at the bottom of the pecking order and would still cry victim. Im a solo player and joined an established server. I started with a wood hut getting destroyed daily until suitable land came up for claim. Stick with it like everything else, you actually gotta work to get somewhere. Everyone wants to be catered to but don't wanna put in the work. How long have you been playing to justify that your work is more important then the people who actually grind and play? True they don't want to work and have everything handed to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker86 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Sydo said: keyword in your reply "try" nothing can or ever will be fair in gaming nor real life, it is impossible. It is possible, albeit hard to achieve. Claiming that all games are unfair and everything in life is unfair just shows me that you seem to have a pessimistic, biased point of view on the world, and I am aware that pessimists enjoy to claim they have understood the world and know how it rolls, but I know that there I have seen fair things in life and I have seen balanced games. So yeah, I just want to offer everyone who might be infected with your point of view a counter view, which says that if you know what you are doing, if you know what is important for a game mechanic and for balancing, and if you know the very basics of math, you can get amazingly balanced games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mronemanmob Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 8 minutes ago, Joker86 said: It is possible, albeit hard to achieve. Claiming that all games are unfair and everything in life is unfair just shows me that you seem to have a pessimistic, biased point of view on the world, and I am aware that pessimists enjoy to claim they have understood the world and know how it rolls, but I know that there I have seen fair things in life and I have seen balanced games. So yeah, I just want to offer everyone who might be infected with your point of view a counter view, which says that if you know what you are doing, if you know what is important for a game mechanic and for balancing, and if you know the very basics of math, you can get amazingly balanced games. It is okay if someone loses, it's been happening a very long time. It will continue to happen indefinitely. Just because someone can accept that the world is not always fair doesn't make them pessimistic, it makes them a realist. Ark is an already amazing game that cannot be converted into a game of "equals". It cannot because it is a free will sandbox game, similar to life, there will ALWAYS be losers. Tic-Tac-Toe is one of the "fairest" games created, if you go first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sydo Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 6 minutes ago, mronemanmob said: It is okay if someone loses, it's been happening a very long time. It will continue to happen indefinitely. Just because someone can accept that the world is not always fair doesn't make them pessimistic, it makes them a realist. Ark is an already amazing game that cannot be converted into a game of "equals". It cannot because it is a free will sandbox game, similar to life, there will ALWAYS be losers. Tic-Tac-Toe is one of the "fairest" games created, if you go first. exactly! @Joker86, I am not a pessimist but a realist, though it's easy for people who live in a sugar coated rainbow world to throw the pessimist card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker86 Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 54 minutes ago, mronemanmob said: It is okay if someone loses, it's been happening a very long time. It will continue to happen indefinitely. Just because someone can accept that the world is not always fair doesn't make them pessimistic, it makes them a realist. Ark is an already amazing game that cannot be converted into a game of "equals". It cannot because it is a free will sandbox game, similar to life, there will ALWAYS be losers. Tic-Tac-Toe is one of the "fairest" games created, if you go first. 44 minutes ago, Sydo said: exactly! @Joker86, I am not a pessimist but a realist, though it's easy for people who live in a sugar coated rainbow world to throw the pessimist card. That's what I said with pessimists enjoying to claim the truth, saying someone is a realist means that he has grasped reality as it is, which is the truth. No. There are fair things in life, and there are fair games. Nowhere did I say nobody should lose. But everybody should be able to always influence whether he loses or not. This isn't the case in Ark. And while I agree that it's difficult to achieve in a sandbox games, there are possibilities to do so. And just because fairness is hard to achieve in a multi layered environment like Ark, it doesn't mean we can go overboard and basically send cavemen against SciFi weapons. Not if the power of those weapons is hugely different. What speaks against a thrown spear causing like five times the damage of a bullet, but a bullet not having travel time or drop and being fired much faster? That way a modern day rifle is more powerful than a spear, but you can still get impaled and die to someone in cloth armor. People can still lose, the advanced player still has an advantage, but it's not so grossly unbalanced like a tickling spear or bow against a rifle which apparently can kill a Quetz easily. All I am saying is don't spread the power level so extremely between players, it makes the game either boring or frustrating. Keeping everything closer to each other is much more interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mronemanmob Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 41 minutes ago, Joker86 said: All I am saying is don't spread the power level so extremely between players, it makes the game either boring or frustrating. Keeping everything closer to each other is much more interesting. The problem with what you are saying is the "power level" is chosen by the player. Keeping everyone constantly at the same "level" would take the fun out of it, the determination that so many already lack. Keeping everything closer would be comparable to Pac-Man if the ghosts weren't faster than Pac-man, very unchallenging and mundane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malkill Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 On 11/12/2016 at 8:04 AM, Thalantyr said: What do you think the per-requisites should be? What population? What traffic? What if you have one tribe that uses a PvP server as their own personal building server and has put in over 2000 hours each, for 30 odd players? Do you believe that should put them into the wipe category? No matter how they do it people will be pissed off, but I still think a blanket wipe should happen. This is a game officially in alpha, not a released game. Some people have build their entire bases from exploits over time. That will be gone, and so will more exploits by launch, I would hope. The majority of servers are at low population. Anyone can see this by just refreshing the list and looking in game. What's going to happen on launch is that all the players that are NOT alpha, or close, are going to leave their server and join the new servers that are created. New players coming in will quickly find which are the new servers and settle on those servers as well. Players that believe all servers should be wiped because of the exploits there has been over time will also move to the new servers. You'll then end up with a massive split in the community where the alphas are left on servers on their own and everyone else moves to the other servers. That's my honest opinion on what I believe will happen. ARK has way too many servers as it is. Even with the influx of players on release (which I don't believe will be huge as those who are truly interested have already played and recycled the game) they still won't be able to fill servers to the capacity they should be. The majority of servers are low population because everyone is on scorched earth raising wyverns to send back to their home servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azmeaiel Posted November 14, 2016 Share Posted November 14, 2016 On 11/6/2016 at 0:25 AM, raaazboy said: wouldn't it make it fairer to players wanting to start later in the server this is what extinction if for, others are for people who want to play end game, and bosses , which takes a long time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJH Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 I honestly would not mind if my servers got wiped at release. I think the main enjoyment i get from a server is right at the beginning when every ones just starting and its all out chaos trying to work out who you trust and trying to power level at least one player to unlock everything i.e forge, chem table, giga and quetz saddles. Its that sense of accomplishment that you have proven you are the best on that server. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raaazboy Posted November 15, 2016 Author Share Posted November 15, 2016 4 hours ago, Azmeaiel said: this is what extinction if for, others are for people who want to play end game, and bosses , which takes a long time oh my god for the last time. EXTINCTION SERVERS ARE AT 5X Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raaazboy Posted November 15, 2016 Author Share Posted November 15, 2016 6 minutes ago, AJH said: I honestly would not mind if my servers got wiped at release. I think the main enjoyment i get from a server is right at the beginning when every ones just starting and its all out chaos trying to work out who you trust and trying to power level at least one player to unlock everything i.e forge, chem table, giga and quetz saddles. Its that sense of accomplishment that you have proven you are the best on that server. exactly the early to mid game ark is the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raaazboy Posted November 15, 2016 Author Share Posted November 15, 2016 On 11/12/2016 at 5:18 AM, DaGoodNamesWereTaken said: Lets be honest here, even if they wiped the server you and your friends would be at the bottom of the pecking order and would still cry victim. Im a solo player and joined an established server. I started with a wood hut getting destroyed daily until suitable land came up for claim. Stick with it like everything else, you actually gotta work to get somewhere. Everyone wants to be catered to but don't wanna put in the work. How long have you been playing to justify that your work is more important then the people who actually grind and play? how exactly would i be at the bottom of the pecking order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malkill Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 11 minutes ago, raaazboy said: how exactly would i be at the bottom of the pecking order? Because no one is going to stop the super tribes who already exist. they will remain alphas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mronemanmob Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 9 hours ago, Malkill said: Because no one is going to stop the super tribes who already exist. they will remain alphas. You are perfectly correct. Some people seem to think Alpha tribes only originate from "fresh servers", which is very naïve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mronemanmob Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 9 hours ago, raaazboy said: how exactly would i be at the bottom of the pecking order? because.....you can't get past wood. "but mommy todd's holding a monopoly on the chocolate chips and I can't get any, every time i try he destroys my wooden hut with a rocket launcher" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmurfin Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 Find a new server or play PVE if you're getting wiped and can't handle it. People don't get on WoW or COD and demand everyone be reset to lvl 1 because it's "fair". Why would this be any different? I only play some evenings and weekends, I don't cry because I don't have time to become alpha, I deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker86 Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 1 minute ago, tmurfin said: Find a new server or play PVE if you're getting wiped and can't handle it. People don't get on WoW or COD and demand everyone be reset to lvl 1 because it's "fair". Why would this be any different? I only play some evenings and weekends, I don't cry because I don't have time to become alpha, I deal with it. There is a difference though, because in WoW or CoD other people can't reset YOU to level 1, in Ark they can. In this case I am not referring 1:1 to player level, because it's actually the only thing they can't take from you (unless they cage you for weeks), but everything else you worked for for months they can take away from you. Imagine that if you die in PvP in WoW against someone with full legendary stuff, your killer could loot your body and take the items you had to farm certain dungeons for for months. I bet in this case you'd ask for a little bit more fairness, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmurfin Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 20 minutes ago, Joker86 said: There is a difference though, because in WoW or CoD other people can't reset YOU to level 1, in Ark they can. In this case I am not referring 1:1 to player level, because it's actually the only thing they can't take from you (unless they cage you for weeks), but everything else you worked for for months they can take away from you. Imagine that if you die in PvP in WoW against someone with full legendary stuff, your killer could loot your body and take the items you had to farm certain dungeons for for months. I bet in this case you'd ask for a little bit more fairness, too. That's the name of the game in PVP. I'd love to play more PVP but I don't have to time to rebuild all the time, so I play PVE, tough poop, you wanna play PVP than you deal with everything that comes with it. If I was alpha I'd argue that I've worked and put in the time to earn my power, it's only fair to let me keep it. It's really quite simple, there's plenty of servers out there, find a new one if you have a bad alpha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker86 Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, tmurfin said: That's the name of the game in PVP. I'd love to play more PVP but I don't have to time to rebuild all the time, so I play PVE, tough poop, you wanna play PVP than you deal with everything that comes with it. If I was alpha I'd argue that I've worked and put in the time to earn my power, it's only fair to let me keep it. It's really quite simple, there's plenty of servers out there, find a new one if you have a bad alpha. The "effort/reward"-mechanism from games is different in PvP games compared to PvE or single player games. You always have to consider that a reward for one player in PvP equals the punishment of another player, and that other player has no "fault" in how much the first player invested into the game. And how about that: you wanna play PvP, you play PvP, you see it's flawed and often turns out to be frustrating and no fun at all, you speak up, PvP gets improved, it's fairer now with reasonable mechanics, everyone has fun, end of story. You basically said "PvP is the way it is", which is of no value to any discussion at all, because all things are what they are. It offers no answer to the question how things SHOULD be like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmurfin Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 7 minutes ago, Joker86 said: The "effort/reward"-mechanism from games is different in PvP games compared to PvE or single player games. You always have to consider that a reward for one player in PvP equals the punishment of another player, and that other player has no "fault" in how much the first player invested into the game. And how about that: you wanna play PvP, you play PvP, you see it's flawed and often turns out to be frustrating and no fun at all, you speak up, PvP gets improved, it's fairer now with reasonable mechanics, everyone has fun, end of story. You basically said "PvP is the way it is", which is of no value to any discussion at all, because all things are what they are. It offers no answer to the question how things SHOULD be like. So hardcores should be at fault or punished because of the lack of time others can put in? The point of PVP is to compete or be better than everyone else! Thats what extinction is for, if you don't like that, than by all means host your own. Some day they might offer different variables of extinction, but right now, it is what it is. poopting on full time players is not the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mronemanmob Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 4 minutes ago, Joker86 said: You basically said "PvP is the way it is", which is of no value to any discussion at all, because all things are what they are. It offers no answer to the question how things SHOULD be like. Perhaps he meant "PVP is the way it is and will always be that way". Because in PVP there should be a "punishment" for not winning. You seem to be back on the "there shouldn't be any losers" bus again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker86 Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 Just now, tmurfin said: So hardcores should be at fault or punished because of the lack of time others can put in? Thats what extinction is for, if ou don't like that, than by all means host your own. Some day they might offer different variables of extinction, but right now, it is what it is. poopting on full time players is not the answer. Not punished. But their performance needs to be capped at a level where others still have a chance to compete. Everything else is just broing for the alphas and frustrating for the rest. A gaming experience where one player has only 10% of the power of another player can never be compelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mronemanmob Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 1 minute ago, Joker86 said: A gaming experience where one player has only 10% of the power of another player can never be compelling. But it is!!! You just have to want to be on the other side of it. There is nothing wrong with people actually earning their status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker86 Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 Just now, mronemanmob said: Perhaps he meant "PVP is the way it is and will always be that way". Because in PVP there should be a "punishment" for not winning. You seem to be back on the "there shouldn't be any losers" bus again. Then you completely misunderstood me. I am not on the "there shouldn't be any losers" bus. I am on the "everyone should have a chance to win" bus. No losers doesn't work in a PvP game, and I feel kinda insulted you assume I would be wanting that. That's stupid, I studied game design, I know it can't exist. But I think there is a difference in gameplay quality between having a power ratio of 99%-1% or 70%-30%. In both ratios the more active player can claim superiority, yet you can't basically predict the outcome of every confrontation. Winning or losing with 99% probability just doesn't allow for a lot of tension and thrill... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmurfin Posted November 15, 2016 Share Posted November 15, 2016 3 minutes ago, Joker86 said: Not punished. But their performance needs to be capped at a level where others still have a chance to compete. Everything else is just broing for the alphas and frustrating for the rest. A gaming experience where one player has only 10% of the power of another player can never be compelling. When there's more than enough servers to go around, it'll always be compelling. It's as easy as doing some legwork and finding a server that works for you. Or playing extinction. This person is literally saying they want extinction, but with variables of their choosing. Host your own if that's what you want. PVP isn't suited to everyone, and never will be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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