Industrial Grinder Is a Joke

[HighDBoom]

cap of 100 is still nothing..

Cap of 1000 would be something to work with.

Otherwise the industrial grinder has no value and was a waste

[Critter]

Speaking of polls, are we not able to link polls on this website? 

[Mendoza]

What I'm interested in is what are the reasons for applying a cap in the first place...?   Is there some kind of exploit which would make the grinder over powered if it were to give the full 1/4 amount on high end gear?

[PuffyPony]

Quote

What I'm interested in is what are the reasons for applying a cap in the first place...?   Is there some kind of exploit which would make the grinder over powered if it were to give the full 1/4 amount on high end gear?

 

Think of it this way: moderately powerful-to-alpha tribe farms deep sea crates and gains large amounts of riot gear. Riot Gear is run through the grinder to produce Polymer, which is in turn used to churn out even more ridiculous amounts of end-game weaponry (i.e. rockets and rocket launchers). Alpha tribes then use this to suppress other tribes. This same examples can be used for high-level saddles turning into metal, and so forth (imagine how much metal could be generated by a single Ascendant mosa platform saddle).

So while alpha tribes are basically capable of this level of production anyway, it prevents them from abusing the Grinder to make it that much easier for themselves (imagine grinding a high-level Riot Chestpiece--that could easily generate 200 polymer alone). Likewise in PvE, it maintains an incentive for players to go out and work for their resources a little bit more.

[Mystalias]

I asked earlier, but it may have been lost... Does the grinder actually take into account the increased materials required to make higher grade equipment? I used the Recycler mod a long time back and it counted everything as just a base item...

[LokiTDD]

3 hours ago, Mystalias said:

I asked earlier, but it may have been lost... Does the grinder actually take into account the increased materials required to make higher grade equipment? I used the Recycler mod a long time back and it counted everything as just a base item...

console peasant here so i can't answer definitively for you but from the way it's been described in this thread it will be read as base equipment 

[Duffried]

Think about it. It is breaking down a crafted item into it's components.

Have you ever taken something apart that isn't supposed to be dissassembled? You don't end up with everything intact and more often than not that is what happens with the industrial grinder. It is just a way of getting rid of unwanted items without the wastefulness of throwing it away completely.

It is NOT intended as an item to turn rare items into rare resources. The very fact you're allowed to put an item into the grinder that you didn't craft is ridiculous in itself.

The industrial grinder is fine, the reason you guys are upset with it is you're trying to use it as it wasn't intended.

[Mendoza]

The grinder is great for higher level tribes... But what I'd love to see is the ability to break down low tech "primitive gear only" for lower level players -- using something like the workbench... The max amount of gain for each resource could be like 10-20 or something...

[Smash]

On 31/07/2016 at 0:22 AM, waterKeeper said:

And....when the alpha tribe realizes it is easier and funner to process the rest of the server through their grinder instead of mining rocks, what then? They would look at your base like " look at that juicy mosa with a mastercraft saddle...let's blow it up, that's x amount of y parked there." 

 

My point is, the devs do think about outcomes and repercussions with these decisions they make, show some respect and don't call them dumb. 

It's amazing how some people just didn't comprehend this eventuality.

[Smash]

On 31/07/2016 at 3:26 AM, MikeLoeven said:

i really wish these forums had a poll function because it lets you get accurate numbers for community opinion since people who might not bother posting in a topic will still find the time to vote since its rather fast and painless

Just because a lot of people might like the idea of throwing journeyman sniper rifles into grinders for mass resources doesn't make it good for the game. 

There's a reason why the return of the grinder is capped or why vaults and industrial items are all huge.

[Leonhardt]

Is there any new addition to the game that OP won't be hilariously excessively salty about?

[LurchUSA]

On 7/30/2016 at 0:26 PM, MikeLoeven said:

My opinion of the devs comes not from just this one incident but from a long line of bad design choices they always choose the hammer to try and balance something that can easily be balanced by other methods that make more sense and as a result end up with broken mechanics. additionally they never listen to the community posts spoon feeding them better methods for implementing the broken features.

Explains why we are using Leech Blood and Sap for bait with the new fishing mechanic. 

[Trev186]

when compared to the other industrial items the grinder is the least attractive but i would not say useless.

The stove removes the huge bottleneck campfires posed when cooking meat

The Cooker removed the hassle from making kibble

The chem bench is quite nice for increased yield and extra space when compared to a mortar and pestle

The forge also is very fast 

 

I think the main use with the grinder are much more muted:

 

1. Excess mats you had from gathering could be converted to other lesser mats. It is still likely faster to gather the lesser materials with dinos then make use of the grinder. Thath, flint and fiber are all easy to get (hell an ape parked on top of a plant without wander on will auto fill his inventory over time)

2. Break down items you do not want for 25% of the cost which are normally not able to be used. IMO this is the number 1 use of the grinder. I had found an ascendant pachy saddle which if I could get 25% of the mats back that would be amazing since ascendant saddles take a huge amount to make. That said limiting the output makes it meh. I would still say limiting it to 100 even is not necessary. The few items you could throw through the Grinder which are a. not able to be demolished for 50% or b. going to give a stack of more than 100 of any given resource c. You would even consider trashing (I.e Asc Mosa saddle etc); are so rare that the limit is just essentially killing the excitement

 

That said having excess materials to build one why not?

 

 

[Jrminot]

I fail to see the issue. With the introduction of the grinder, you have gained the ability to acquire resources you otherwise would not have had any access to. As an end game item, most end-gamers won't have an issue acquired the required resources to build it.

Nothing has been lost.

Also, the argument "Alpha tribes will get stronger with the introduction of x" argument is getting rather old. Just wait until the tek tier gets released. You can take any new end-game item being introduced and make the argument that Alpha tribes will get strong because of it. That is not necessarily a good reason to not introduce said items.

Overall balancing will probably come later once all the content has been released.

[CTMalum]

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 9:31 PM, PuffyPony said:

 

Think of it this way: moderately powerful-to-alpha tribe farms deep sea crates and gains large amounts of riot gear. Riot Gear is run through the grinder to produce Polymer, which is in turn used to churn out even more ridiculous amounts of end-game weaponry (i.e. rockets and rocket launchers). Alpha tribes then use this to suppress other tribes. This same examples can be used for high-level saddles turning into metal, and so forth (imagine how much metal could be generated by a single Ascendant mosa platform saddle).

So while alpha tribes are basically capable of this level of production anyway, it prevents them from abusing the Grinder to make it that much easier for themselves (imagine grinding a high-level Riot Chestpiece--that could easily generate 200 polymer alone). Likewise in PvE, it maintains an incentive for players to go out and work for their resources a little bit more.

Bold is really the point.  I don't need to waste 3200 ingot and 2000 crystal to smash up items that I will probably end up using anyway.  The items that would really be worth grinding are the high level saddles, but that is the kind of stuff we want.  At this stage of the game, it takes me about 15 minutes to farm up enough obsidian for about 500 polymer (we have mountains of paste).  I wouldn't waste my time building a grinder then non-stop grinding underwater drops hoping for a mastercraft fab snipe or compound bow. 

 

The grinder does have a place, and it does have a point of balance.  I think that is at lvl 85, costing half as much as it currently does, and you can only grind items that have been crafted, with a refund of at least 75%.

[Ranger1]

8 minutes ago, Jrminot said:

I fail to see the issue. With the introduction of the grinder, you have gained the ability to acquire resources you otherwise would not have had any access to. As an end game item, most end-gamers won't have an issue acquired the required resources to build it.

Nothing has been lost.

Also, the argument "Alpha tribes will get stronger with the introduction of x" argument is getting rather old. Just wait until the tek tier gets released. You can take any new end-game item being introduced and make the argument that Alpha tribes will get strong because of it. That is not necessarily a good reason to not introduce said items.

Overall balancing will probably come later once all the content has been released.

Agreed, however there are certain design and balance considerations that need to take place... especially with "end game" mechanics.  A very keen eye needs to be kept on possible exploits that an Alpha tribe can leverage to it's exclusive advantage, and special care needs to be taken so as not to obsolete everything that came before a newly introduced item/creature.

These are situation where, on occasion, I have not seen eye to eye with the dev team.  Most of those issues have been resolved or are in the process of being resolved... but some design decisions are harder to change after the fact than others.

[Ranger1]

9 minutes ago, CTMalum said:

Bold is really the point.  I don't need to waste 3200 ingot and 2000 crystal to smash up items that I will probably end up using anyway.  The items that would really be worth grinding are the high level saddles, but that is the kind of stuff we want.  At this stage of the game, it takes me about 15 minutes to farm up enough obsidian for about 500 polymer (we have mountains of paste).  I wouldn't waste my time building a grinder then non-stop grinding underwater drops hoping for a mastercraft fab snipe or compound bow. 

 

The grinder does have a place, and it does have a point of balance.  I think that is at lvl 85, costing half as much as it currently does, and you can only grind items that have been crafted, with a refund of at least 75%.

You're overlooking the fact that the grinder does not present an "either/or" situation.

You don't build a grinder so that you can go out and instead of your normal resource gathering spend time hunting "grindable" items. 

That would be pretty silly.

You do your normal gathering, however the grinder takes care of the extra items that you can't use that you are going to find anyway in the course of your normal activities.

So that 15 minutes farming obsidian might not be necessary at all, because you happened across an extra "whatever" that you can't use (and would have dropped on the ground) yesterday in the course of your normal daily routine.

It's a controlled addition to your normal resource gathering that allows you to put useless items to use, where you could not do so before.

 

The thing people tend to also forget about this is that the limited stream may seem small when considering a single person, but multiply that output by 20, or 40, or more as you would in a large, active tribe.  That can easily add up to a rather large amount of resources for no extra effort what so ever.

[CTMalum]

2 minutes ago, ranger1presents said:

You're overlooking the fact that the grinder does not present an "either/or" situation.

You don't build a grinder so that you can go out and instead of your normal resource gathering spend time hunting "grindable" items. 

That would be pretty silly.

You do your normal gathering, however the grinder takes care of the extra items that you can't use that you are going to find anyway in the course of your normal activities.

So that 15 minutes farming obsidian might not be necessary at all, because you happened across an extra "whatever" that you can't use (and would have dropped on the ground) yesterday in the course of your normal daily routine.

It's a controlled addition to your normal resource gathering that allows you to put useless items to use, where you could not do so before.

I'm just putting the argument in context of how most of the people in this thread have been framing it- underwater drops + grinder = massive profit.

[Ranger1]

Just now, CTMalum said:

I'm just putting the argument in context of how most of the people in this thread have been framing it- underwater drops + grinder = massive profit.

I understand, not trying to pull your chain. 

The reality of it is that while those large items will undoubtedly go in a grinder on occasion, the main reason for the cap is the much more readily found items that people have many duplicates of.  Those items will provide a steady stream of resources that would have gone to waste otherwise... and it can add up very quickly.

[Ranger1]

And why won't my blasted emotes ever show up?  It always looks like I'm getting in someones face when I've taken care to put smiley faces in the right spots to let them know I didn't mean something in a hateful way... but they just disappear.

Oh... the humanity...

[BurningNight]

Just wish when I select a stack of arrows I need to purge, it would grind the whole stack. Might as well throw them into ocean then click grind 50 times.

[Raps1355]

From what i can see this was only ever intended to grind all these pick,hatchets,pikes from kills, beacon unwanted items and was never intended to grind down all these high req asc gear from sea crates. I can see how alot of people may feel hard done by and in a way its true its not like you can churn out sea crates to farm materials at an increased rate as farming normally would yield more mats per equal time spend on sea crates anyway. I do think 100 cap as it is currently is very rude of the devs.

[Trev186]

On 7/31/2016 at 6:31 PM, PuffyPony said:

 

Think of it this way: moderately powerful-to-alpha tribe farms deep sea crates and gains large amounts of riot gear. Riot Gear is run through the grinder to produce Polymer, which is in turn used to churn out even more ridiculous amounts of end-game weaponry (i.e. rockets and rocket launchers). Alpha tribes then use this to suppress other tribes. This same examples can be used for high-level saddles turning into metal, and so forth (imagine how much metal could be generated by a single Ascendant mosa platform saddle).

So while alpha tribes are basically capable of this level of production anyway, it prevents them from abusing the Grinder to make it that much easier for themselves (imagine grinding a high-level Riot Chestpiece--that could easily generate 200 polymer alone). Likewise in PvE, it maintains an incentive for players to go out and work for their resources a little bit more.

Yeah sure but dont forget those sea crates often give crap like MC Scuba gear and ASC pachy saddles.

 

IMO the amount of RNG spent hoping for an ASC Mosa saddle you could farm the mats up just as fast.

 

 

[UDGxKnight]

All I see in this thread is nobody realizing that it just got implemented and can easily be changed with the later balancing. Just like how everyone whined about getting caged and handcuffs and it got changed.

[Agro]

IMO you should get 1/4 mats with no limit on what you get back. High level gear like riot armor and saddles are important for major tribes, and would be a difficult decision to grind. Doesn't matter what you grind the high demand/ expensive items wouldn't likely find their way in there anyhow. For an alpha tribe that might grind those things they would likely just farm those resources, and keep the item. There aren't enough rare drops to farm resources that way anyhow. It would just be a supplemental boost at best.