The cost of paid mods

[TonyTempah]

17 hours ago, Pipinghot said:

you responded with "the market has accepted it" as if that was a valid counter-argument when it's not.

It's not a counter argument, it's a fact. I don't like it. You don't like it, they don't like it. You are missing the point that of all the things I choose to bother me in life, this is in the category of things I have an opinion on and will share. This is a different position to yours, it might help you to accept that and move on.

You will have the last word, as usual but, for now I have moved on to another hill to see if that's worth dying on.

[Pipinghot]

On 10/11/2024 at 5:46 AM, TonyTempah said:

It's not a counter argument, it's a fact.

And yet you presented it as a counter-argument, essentially implying that he was wrong for having that opinion.
"Woah there my king. You need to walk back from the sea's edge a bit", that's not merely a recitation of the facts, that's editorial commentary on someone's right to criticize industry practices.

Even with you expressing a minor degree of agreement, "Doesn't mean I like it or disagree with you but, it is a thing now." you were still addressing his opinion as though it was an invalid point of view. That's a counter-argument, not merely a presentation of a fact.

On 10/11/2024 at 5:46 AM, TonyTempah said:

You will have the last word, as usual but

Aww, how adorable, it's always amusing when someone accuses someone else of wanting to have the last word in an attempt to have the last word. Best wishes for you that it will work for your on your next hill.

[MADxHAWK]

On 8/29/2024 at 5:28 PM, Tiberius3223 said:

As for Ark ASA. I would encourage you at least for now, to give the game a negative review on whatever platform you play. Unless Wildcards sees that players are not going to tolerate a certain behavior, they will just keep pushing it. And above all else, don't purchase paid mods, you aren't actually helping the game, or that creator. It's a cycle of exploitation that never should have been started. Just look at Bethesda...

I agree, im an Ark Player since the first Hour (Early Access Release in 2015) with over 4000 Hours in ASE.
I bought ASA before i did some research. Looking back now, i would never had bought ASA if i knew what i now know. 

1. The contract with Nitrade as exclusive only Hoster. I now would have to pay more for one ASA Server m then i had to pay for two ASE Server. Nitrado can take what they want and they do, cause there is no competition. Absolutley disgusting.

2. Moving mods from the Workshop to Courseforge.
No auto update for mods, no notification that updates are available, no "Update All" option. you have to check and update every single mod manually. absolutly user unfriendly. 

3. No chance of refund if you dont like a Mod. I bought Swarfthalheim right after i bought ASA. At this time it wasnt mentioned that you cant bring flyer tho the Map. The modder was pretty unfriendly and just said no i dont allow flyer i dont care what you want. And many complained they cant bring flyer to the map.
In my country this is called False Advertiseing and can have legal consequences cause it was not clearly mentioned that there is no chance for the User to allow flyer. A refund would be mandatory in that case, at least in my countryeven its software. 

And there is another problem especially in europe, I don't know about the US, but if you pay for something you have the legal right to demand it works as advertised. Now let's imagin I just bought a premium mod for 10 or 20 bucks and 2 days later Wildcard release an update that breaks the mod (it happend in the past with ASE and it will happen in the future with ASA). In this case, the modder would be legally obliged to update the mod so that it works as promised again. If he abandoned the mod i would have a legal right of refund. (NC soft was legally sentenced to refund all transactions of the last 4 or 6 weeks, when they announced the shutdown of a game) 

if i wouldnt get refund from paypal, I wouldn't sue Wildcard or snailgames. I would sue the modder. So a modder that sells mods is legally responsible for keeping them working,  even if wildcard broke it with an update of the game. Modders should be aware of that they are no longer hobbists and are fully legally responsible for their product since they are now comercial buisiness. And if a comercial mod crashes a computer causing damage, the modder also is full accountsble and can be held liable for all damage his mod caused. 

Do you think Wildcard or Snailgame will take accountability? I don't think so. You might get away with it l, if you're are from a foreign country, but if you are a citizen of the EU, well most European countries have very high customer standards and a commercial warning and compensation can get very expensive very quickly. On top of that, everyone can order a lawyer to send a warning with costs. 

Personally I would not take the risk of officially selling mods caus in the case of problems neither Wildcard nor Snailgames or Courseforge will take accountability or a lawsuit.  That's something you should keep in mind. 

4. Payed mods still in development.
Thats like buying a car that still is in assambly trusting the company will finish it.
Legally speaking, this is a grey area, because as a buyer you have the right to a finished product. If the modder does not finish the product, you have the right to a refund in my country.

5. How much does a modder realy get from selling his Mod. Courseforge for sure want some fee for the Transaction and Wildcard for sure get its share too. so from the 10 Bucks i pay for a mod, the modder at best get 5 bucks. 
Thats another Reason why i wont purchase any more Premium Mods.
If i want to show gratitude, i send some money via paypal or buy me a coffee. There i know the modder will get his Money.

6. Regarding P2W

Im not surprised, Snailgame is Chinese. And the worst decision off all from Wildcard. 

Asisn business is build on sell, sell, sell, make fast money and dont care about returning customers and reviews. 

i saw it with NC Soft and other Asian games that were released in the western world. At release they stated "we hate pay 2 win all items in the shop will only be cosmetics". At release we had 4 US, 2 UK, 2 France and 4 German Servers and a few. After just 2 years they came with "Treasure Trove" 4 times per year. (RNG-Loot Boxes). And of course you could get materials to upgrade your gear and even high level gear for pvp and pve. Within the next year only one US and one European Server were left. Thousands of players left the game. NC Soft didn't mind cause some "Wales" pumped hundreds and thousands of dollars into the RNG loot boxes. As a usual player you had no chance to fight a "whale" you simply couldn't deal damage. You couldn't keep up with them. I was fighting one of them for 10 minutes and couldn't get him down cause his buffs simply outclassed my damage. And I had the the highest pvp gear you could grind as a free player. 

Snailgame will do the same with ARK. I'm curious when the first RNG loot boxes will show up. 

I dont buy any more Premium Mods cause i dont know what they offer and the description often is more or less vague. Overall not when i dont find any detailed Mod introductions on youtube. Swarfthalheim was a lesson for me and i regrett i bought it.

I can just repeat, with the knowledge i got now, i would never had bought ASA even i love ARK. And if wildcard dont change their buisiness model i deffinetly will not buy ARK 2.

 

Edited October 14 by MADxHAWK

[TonyTempah]

15 hours ago, MADxHAWK said:

And there is another problem especially in europe, I don't know about the US, but if you pay for something you have the legal right to demand it works as advertised. Now let's imagin I just bought a premium mod for 10 or 20 bucks and 2 days later Wildcard release an update that breaks the mod (it happend in the past with ASE and it will happen in the future with ASA). In this case, the modder would be legally obliged to update the mod so that it works as promised again. If he abandoned the mod i would have a legal right of refund. (NC soft was legally sentenced to refund all transactions of the last 4 or 6 weeks, when they announced the shutdown of a game) 

 

You raise a good point re mod liability. I haven't noticed a separate EULA for the mods so do they work off the ASA agreement? I think EU law makes it possible to sue the entity that sold you a thing? Like a shop, website or vendor. 

[Pitpeople]

令人难以置信的是，高级模组迫使每个玩家付费才能加入服务器。即使你运行自己的服务器，你也不可能要求每个玩家都付费购买模组。有些人认为让不想付费购买高级模组的玩家选择不同的服务器可以解决问题。有多少人会留在执行此操作的服务器上

[MADxHAWK]

On 10/14/2024 at 12:03 PM, TonyTempah said:

You raise a good point re mod liability. I haven't noticed a separate EULA for the mods so do they work off the ASA agreement? I think EU law makes it possible to sue the entity that sold you a thing? Like a shop, website or vendor. 

Neither Wildcard / Snailgame nor Courseforge will take responsibility for a mod and have excluded this in their EULA / Tos.
From the perspective of EU law, the modder is acting commercially and is therefore fully responsible for his product.
If, for example, you offer a mod for sale that is infected with malware without your knowledge, I can hold you liable for any damage the mod causes, as in this case you are considered a commercial seller and no longer a private person.
It is different if you offer the mod for free download under GPL, MIT, Creative Common or similar licenses.
In this case, the use of the mod is at your own risk. You are also not obliged to keep the software up to date and running, as it is offered free of charge "as is".

I had this topic around 2010. At the time, I wrote PHP add-ons for an open source forum software with a friend. We also wanted to sell them for 5 bucks. A lawyer told us that in that case we would be fully liable for the add-ons and would be fully liable for any damage that could be caused by an error in the add-on and would be liable for damages.

From the perspective of EU law, modders who offer their mods as paid premium mods are on very thin ice from a legal point of view.

If it really does come to a legal dispute, Courseforge will say "We only offer the platform for downloading/selling and have nothing to do with the mod, we are not the developer" and that means they are legally exempt from liability as long as they do not knowingly/intentionally offer malicious software.

The sad / bad thing is that most modders who sell premium mods are not even aware of this danger.

But this only affects the mods that are offered for sale as premium, not those that are available for free download.
These modders are free of responsibility/liability as long as it cannot be proven that they have deliberately integrated malware into their mod

Edited October 16 by MADxHAWK

[TonyTempah]

1 hour ago, MADxHAWK said:

From the perspective of EU law, the modder is acting commercially and is therefore fully responsible for his product.
If, for example, you offer a mod for sale that is infected with malware without your knowledge, I can hold you liable for any damage the mod causes, as in this case you are considered a commercial seller and no longer a private person.

Yikes! Plus Curseforge would throw you under the bus!

Thanks for the clarification and giving me a new perspective on the modder market. I just asked a couple of AIs for an example of a player suing a modder in the EU and they couldn't find one. It did say that most legal actions have been devs/publishers suing modders though. So I suppose we are waiting for a test case to form a precedence.

[MADxHAWK]

On 10/16/2024 at 3:22 PM, TonyTempah said:

Yikes! Plus Curseforge would throw you under the bus!

Thanks for the clarification and giving me a new perspective on the modder market. I just asked a couple of AIs for an example of a player suing a modder in the EU and they couldn't find one. It did say that most legal actions have been devs/publishers suing modders though. So I suppose we are waiting for a test case to form a precedence.

Well im not a lawyer, its all based on my own experience when we wanted to sell our mods. We decided maybe 200, 300 bucks per year is not worth the risk to get sued for a webserver, at worst case a companies webserver, get hacked due to a security leak in our modification

And yes, they for sure would throw you under the bus.
so far i havent heard about a modder got sued either. but that might be mainly cause mods are usually free an  its always mentioned that you download and use the software / mod at your own risk. As long as you cant prove a modder of a free mod intenntionally included maleware / viruses, you wont have a chance to sue him.
There might be so paragrahps that might protect a Modder from being held accountable, the question is, if european courts would accept it.

my mother, she once had a small company (GmbH). As her lawyer said, "You can write anything you want in your terms and conditions. You can write excessively that my house, my car, my kidneys and my wife will become your property if I don't pay my bill.
It just won't be enforceable in court.
That's why the terms and conditions always say something like this
"If one of the aforementioned clauses is legally ineffective, the others remain unaffected."

 

Edited October 18 by MADxHAWK