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ladymarina
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5 hours ago, Frack said:

Cross-platform is in UE5, OW is not required

 

Right, but OW is required for cross-platform mods, which is what I was saying.

Say for instance I will only play ARK with mods on my PC. So for me to play with console players, they need to provide mods to console players, so they need to use OW. That I suspect is the motivation to add it instead of just continuing as is with steam mods. No idea why they need us PC users to play with console users though.

Edited by wildbill
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1 hour ago, Pipinghot said:

That's true, but WildCard plans to use OW anyway.

The thing to keep in mind is that WildCard (which in reality means Snail Games, which in reality means Shi Hai who basically owns everything) wants to move into the world of web3 (translation: microtransactions) for PC gaming. They'll never call it microtransactions, they'll never admit it's microtransactions, they'll deny it's microtransactions, but really it's microtransactions.

If you look at the announcements that started all of the fracas you'll see they talk about using Overwolf as part of their plan to add mods to consoles, but more importantly to enable premium mods that you have to pay money to use. They're pretending that this is for the benefit of content creators who can get 50% of the revenue from their mods, but that they're not saying is that they're only paying 50% when it should be more like 70% or 80%. For comparison, if you sell a game on Steam or GoG they only take 30%, but WC is going to take 50% from content creators.

Also, Shi Hai doesn't dislike RMT's (real money transactions) like most players do, the only thing he cares about is that he wants WildCard to get cut of the action when players sell things to each other for money. Most of us think of it as cheating, he just thinks of it as additional profit for himself. Shi Hai and others like him will talk-talk-talk a bunch about how its for the benefit of content creators when really it's for the game company because web3/blockchain/NFTs makes it possible for the company to make money whenever players sell things to each other.

What they're trying to do is use the same methods they use in mobile games (make players pay extra money in order to progress faster, or in PvP pay-to-win) and bring those methods to PC games.

To quote the old adage:

This. 

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How can you think positively about ASA if you don't know anything?  (they'd already pay for it if it were possible) and it's based on the words WC/SG.  Yes, but maybe just on the drawing table, be realistic and look at the transition time of UE4 to UE5, WC/SG entered UE5 but couldn't fix UE4?  (Suddenly wants to perform a miracle With the transformation of eu4 ASE to eu5 ASA).  How long does it take to convert a mod to UE5 10 minutes (I know it's more and please don't comment, this time it's a copy paste example)?  We don't know anything else, no gameplay, literally nothing but the words of WC/SG, which I don't trust for many reasons anyway.  ASA will become a VIP game at first, because not everyone can afford such an expensive game change.  The advantage of PCs over consoles is still significant, even though the prices of components are not cheap.  But ASA will be balanced in every way but only in favor of WC/SG.  As for me, it looks rather like that you'll get to work from the end (the painter paints the car to later disassemble and modify it, and only to have a new photo to announce I will sell the car xD).  WC/SG is doing just such a thing, drawing to sell it to us.  Have you ever bought a car based on a picture alone?  You were not interested in important aspects of engine power, condition, etc.?  Because the seller described it as great even though it has 1 million kilometers of mileage?

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5 hours ago, Noffek said:

How can you think positively about ASA if you don't know anything?  (they'd already pay for it if it were possible) and it's based on the words WC/SG.  Yes, but maybe just on the drawing table, be realistic and look at the transition time of UE4 to UE5, WC/SG entered UE5 but couldn't fix UE4?  (Suddenly wants to perform a miracle With the transformation of eu4 ASE to eu5 ASA).  How long does it take to convert a mod to UE5 10 minutes (I know it's more and please don't comment, this time it's a copy paste example)?  We don't know anything else, no gameplay, literally nothing but the words of WC/SG, which I don't trust for many reasons anyway.  ASA will become a VIP game at first, because not everyone can afford such an expensive game change.  The advantage of PCs over consoles is still significant, even though the prices of components are not cheap.  But ASA will be balanced in every way but only in favor of WC/SG.  As for me, it looks rather like that you'll get to work from the end (the painter paints the car to later disassemble and modify it, and only to have a new photo to announce I will sell the car xD).  WC/SG is doing just such a thing, drawing to sell it to us.  Have you ever bought a car based on a picture alone?  You were not interested in important aspects of engine power, condition, etc.?  Because the seller described it as great even though it has 1 million kilometers of mileage?

Yes 👍 standing with you on thus for sure. Everything that they are trying to do is make us pay for it. Console players will have the hardest time....  

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1 hour ago, Frack said:

UE5 has cross platform modding built in, only reason they are  using OW is $

mods support on console is limited, it depends mostly about file system and syscall limitations. To bypass this, you have to pass through Microsoft/Sony crap certification and deployment processes. But hell yea, Overwolf allows to bypass some Store restrictions too XD

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cross platform means console's will be playing on pc servers with pc players, thus kicking 'Microsoft/Sony crap certification and deployment processes' out the door

now, going the other way pc on console servers may eliminate some mods because of the 'processes '

 

which why this post was started by ladymarina, and we still have no clue what happens to console server files, other than go poof!  Aug 31st 

Edited by Frack
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2 hours ago, Frack said:

UE5 has cross platform modding built in, only reason they are  using OW is $

OK, maybe I need to look into this more, although I'm doubting there is a dev kit available just yet.

Years ago I downloaded the dev kit for ARK for UE4, but found my PC didn't have enough memory to run it effectively, so I removed it a bit later.

You say OW is all about the $. I am assuming about dollars for Snail and WC, not modders.

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3 minutes ago, Frack said:

cross platform means console's will be playing on pc servers with pc players, thus kicking 'Microsoft/Sony crap certification and deployment processes' out the door

now, going the other way pc on console servers may eliminate some mods because of the 'processes '

 

which why this post was started by ladymarina, and we still have no clue what happens to console server files, other than go poof!  Aug 31st 

Yes, we need more information. If I had to guess, I would say consoles will not support running an ARK server. It will still be ARK servers running on PCs. 

I know very little about consoles. Do they even support playing ARK as single player? That is where the save can be loaded. You load it up for playing single player.

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On 5/26/2023 at 12:08 AM, wildbill said:

Right, but OW is required for cross-platform mods, which is what I was saying.

Also @Frack @darkradeon Just to make sure we're not all talking past each other, let's see if we can agree about a couple of details.

1) UE5 has the ability to support cross-platform mods, but it's more complicated than simply making the decision to support cross-platform mods.

2) In addition to making that decision the publisher has to make arrangements for infrastructure to support the management and distribution of mods (once they have been uploaded by mod creators, naturally mod creators are responsible for making sure their mods work, I'm only talking about the distribution of mods after they are created). And, of course, this only applies to platforms like Steam, Microsoft, Sony & Epic. If a mod maker wants to upload their mod to an independent site like Nexus then it's outside the scope of this discussion.

This could mean that the publisher makes an agreement with one-platform-at-a-time (separate agreements with Steam, Sony, Microsoft, Epic (and anyone else I've forgotten) or it means they have to prepare external infrastructure to support mods (this would mean either building their own infrastructure or contracting with mod.io or overwolf.

For Steam, the support for mods already exists and if a publisher sells a game on Steam they can only distribute mods to their Steam game by contracting with Steam to use Steam's infrastructure.

For the other platforms WildCard is planning to contract with Overwolf, instead of contracting with each of the individual platforms, for the management and distribution of mods to consoles.

(Side note: I don't know what they have planned for cross-platform mod support on Epic or on Microsoft PC for ASA, but for now let's just talk about cross-platform between PC & Console).

 

# Reality check #1 - does anyone disagree with these details so far?  As far as I know this is a presentation of the facts from a technical point of view. UE5 allows cross-platform mods but the publisher still has to arrange for management and distribution of the mods.

 

Now for the business side of things...

I'm just going to quote Frack here, "only reason they are  using OW is $".

The choice of Overwolf is driven by WildCard's desire (which really means Shi Hai's desire) to make additional profit from premium mods. It may be the case that Microsoft, Sony & mod,io support premium mods, or maybe not, but whether they do or not, WC has chosen to contract with Overwolf they believe OW is the most cost effective/profitable solution for cross-platform mod support.

# Reality check #2 - any disagreements here?

 

 

Now for the additional speculation from me:

Beyond this, I also believe that they will be using Overwolf with ARK2 if it ever gets published (I know they previously announced mod.io for ARK2, but I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that changes) and I'll bet they also plan to use Overwolf with Project Hermes (ARK-in-Space, but with web3/blockchain/NFT garbage built-in to the game).

As part of this speculation I'm guessing that Overwolf is more focused on web3/blockchain/NFT garbage than mod.io and probably more than the individual platform providers. Shi Hai's disgusting "vision" for the future is to harvest a percentage from every RMT that players ever transact. He's not doing it to support modders or other content creators and he doesn't care about selling in-game assets for money, he just wants a piece of the action from every transaction.

Edited by Pipinghot
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9 minutes ago, Frack said:

cross platform means console's will be playing on pc servers with pc players, thus kicking 'Microsoft/Sony crap certification and deployment processes' out the door

No, it doesn't, not unless you have some secret knowledge that the rest of us don't have. it just means that distribution to PC gets delayed until the platform providers all certify each release.

Microsoft & Sony don't care one little bit about WildCards patch schedule on PC's. They're still going to require certification on their own platforms, and if that certification means that the patch for PC has to wait until they're done certifying that's fine with them.

Having a patch delayed by console certification is a problem for WildCard and PC players, it's not a problem for Microsoft or Sony. So, as I say, unless you've seen some announcement by Microsoft and Sony that changes this, nothing is going to get "kicked" except PC players who have to wait for console certification.

Or (as someone else said), console players will be unable to log in to the cross play server until each of their platforms certify the patch. If that happens WildCard might attempt to blame the problem on the console platforms but that's an argument they're going to lose. Microsoft and Sony will make sure everyone knows it's WildCard's fault if that happens.

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UE5 implementation of cross platform play-

"If game developers decide to enable cross-platform play, it means that players on different platforms, such as PC, consoles (like PlayStation, Xbox, or Nintendo Switch), and potentially even mobile devices, can play together in the same game sessions or servers."

"It's worth noting that even if cross-platform play is implemented, it doesn't necessarily mean that console players will always play on PC servers. The specific server infrastructure and matchmaking systems can vary depending on the game and the decisions made by the developers."

Taking that info, one can see only PC Servers, and no  console severs at all, completely tossing MS/Sony out the door so they only have one set code to maintain 

 

 

 

Edited by Frack
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2 hours ago, Frack said:

Taking that info, one can see only PC Servers, and no  console severs at all, completely tossing MS/Sony out the door so they only have one set code to maintain

I see, we were talking about two different things. I was talking about client updates, not server updates.

So yes, you're right that cross-platform servers could be managed however WildCard wants to without any regard for what MS/Sony as long as the the client can log into the server without requiring a client update.

But in many cases the server updates also require client updates or people can't log into the server, in which case the scenarios I described would be pertinent. When that happens WC would have to wait until all platforms have certified the client update before updating the servers, or they would be locking console players out of the server until the console update is certified.

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I had to ask, and got this in reply-

does microsoft/sony have to certify platform client updates for cross platform games on pc servers?

"As of my knowledge cutoff in September 2021, Microsoft and Sony do not typically certify platform client updates for cross-platform games on PC servers. Certification processes are primarily required for games released on consoles (such as Xbox or PlayStation) to ensure compatibility, security, and adherence to platform-specific guidelines.

For PC games, the certification process is generally not mandatory, as PC gaming platforms like Steam, Epic Games Store, or GOG.com operate with more flexibility."

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This all does not matter the point is that everyone in the gaming community is being shammed. WC/ SG hasn't even told us anything about the mass bann that happened. How are we going to get saved files etc. I don't play on Unofficial. So how are we going to get protection from hackers etc. They Are saying nothing. Absolutely Nothing. 

Edited by ladymarina
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They said the PC save files will be available on their site here after they shut down the servers. But having banged my head full of stuff on platforms, cross platform's, cross play now , I can see why you will not have save files from consoles, simply because of the way consoles servers are run by MS/Sony and the licensing involved , which is really sad, but I don't see a way around it. You console players are just tossed in the wind.j

 

Can you host server for ps4?

If you want a dedicated server for PS4 you have to pay a third party to host the server. The dedicated server requires security keys that Sony isn't going to let regular users have access to. 

 
Edited by Frack
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3 hours ago, Frack said:

But having banged my head full of stuff on platforms, cross platform's, cross play now , I can see why you will not have save files from consoles, simply because of the way consoles servers are run by MS/Sony and the licensing involved , which is really sad, but I don't see a way around it. You console players are just tossed in the wind

There are a bunch of separate issues here:

  • UE5 (and UE4 for that matter) does enable cross platform mod DEVELOPEMENT.
  • Console platforms DO require certification of code before it can be distributed onto that platform.
  • Save game data is NOT code it is simply data.
  • (New) Mods could be considered as new code, and would (likely) require certification before they could be released to console.
  • As commented above - game patches typically do not require certification. This I did not know, and if it is indeed the case, I find that this to be a massive loophole in the whole purpose on MS & Sony doing certification processes? I imaging in reality that there would be some kind of checklist that would have to be submitted around what will be changed in a patch, and this checklist would be above or below a re-certification threshold. So changing the colour of a dillo is cool, changing the networking "protocol" is not cool?
  • In terms of functionality, the "server" portion of Ark very likely has no special bits of code in it to support differing platforms. It does not care where the data stream telling it that ToonA is building a Stone foundation at x,x,z. All it has to do is record that information, and send back to the client machine what the map looks like inside of the clients render range. Network traffic for PC or Windows or Epic or PlayStation will be no different at all.
  • Wildcard however DO care what the client is, because they want to validate that the client is legitimate and has a legal copy of the game! There will therefore be some kind of up front wrapper that is able to do this validation of client for each of the connecting client flavours. Further this wrapper may be built to do periodic in-game validation of client to stop peeps from starting the same copy of game on multiple devices.
  • The client portion of the game which actually displays ToonA and Stone foundation at x,y,z is likely to have a bunch of platform specific code in it, because of differing hardware capabilities, and Operating System API's that allow stuff to happen. However this functionality is built into the Unreal Engine! Wildcard does not have to do ANYTHING here - just compile the code with a different platform as a target! And as above - the client does not care to what flavour of server it is talking to, all it wants is to be able to tell the server what ToonA is doing, and get map information within render distance.
  • As above, Wildcard DOES care what or where that client is, because they want to validate that it is a legitimate copy of the game. This is very likely the reason that there are different servers for the various platforms. That way it becomes simpler for a server to do client validation without having to make a choice about how to validate a client. i.e. If it is a playstation "server", it knows that it must use playstation validation.

With all that said, the solution to the current issue of console dudes losing their "progress" on official servers: The technical answer is simple - Wildcard needs to build into the existing game some kind of "file manager" that allows console to copy and paste their saved games. The code itself that will do this file management will need to be certified, but the DATA comprising save games is not likely to need certification? I don't have insight to what the rules for "certification" on a console entails, and possibly Sony & Microsoft preclude this kind of action with the view that some "cleverness" could inject malicious stuff into a saved game? But technically the answer is simple, and if it is precluded by Sony and or Microsoft - then there nothing Wildcard can do.

And in terms of ASA and cross platform servers: All of this is possible (even with the current ASE code base), it simply requires Wildcard to come up with a "unified" validation of the client install (Or to abandon validation all together ;) - which will NEVER happen). The actual game itself would not change at all! (If I remember correctly, there was years ago a version where cross play actually worked for a short while until Sony {I think} jumped on Wildcard for "breaking the rules". Whether that was an actual release version into the wild or just a in house demo - I cannot now remember).

In terms of mod support, what is needed is an (easy) way for modders to "certify" their own bits of code to the console companies. If I am building a mod for free, there is NO WAY that I am going to go jump the hoops that MS and Sony have in place for certification. I guess that is where a 3rd party company comes into the picture.

The "challenges" of cross platform play is largely of Wildcards making.

The "challenges" on mods is of Sony and Microsoft's making.

Edited by DirkInSA
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8 hours ago, Pipinghot said:

2) In addition to making that decision the publisher has to make arrangements for infrastructure to support the management and distribution of mods.

Mmmm - no they don't. Mod distribution and support is on the Mod developer, and has nothing much to do with Wildcard at all. Sure Wildcard has (currently) made mods only "valid" when it comes from steam - but in terms of the unreal engine, this could as well be a zip download into the game files.

But This

8 hours ago, Pipinghot said:

The choice of Overwolf is driven by WildCard's desire (which really means Shi Hai's desire) to make additional profit from premium mods.

Is definitely a thing! They want to piggy back $ off of Modders work. And given that, your assertation that OW is likely only going to apply to console stuff may not be valid. It is possible that Wildcard / Snail choose to ONLY support mods distributed by OW - never mind the platform so that they can piggy back even more $ .........

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13 hours ago, DirkInSA said:

Mmmm - no they don't. Mod distribution and support is on the Mod developer, and has nothing much to do with Wildcard at all. Sure Wildcard has (currently) made mods only "valid" when it comes from steam - but in terms of the unreal engine, this could as well be a zip download into the game files.

Whoops, I can see that I could have described that better. I was talking about support and distribution of the mods after the mod makers had created and uploaded mods. Thanks for showing me that I didn't word that properly, I've gone back and edited it like so:

PIpinghot - "2) In addition to making that decision the publisher has to make arrangements for infrastructure to support the management and distribution of mods (once they have been uploaded by mod creators, naturally mod creators are responsible for making sure their mods work, I'm only talking about the distribution of mods after they are created). And, of course, this only applies to platforms like Steam, Microsoft, Sony & Epic. If a mod maker wants to upload their mod to an independent site like Nexus then it's outside the scope of this discussion." 

13 hours ago, DirkInSA said:

Is definitely a thing! They want to piggy back $ off of Modders work. And given that, your assertation that OW is likely only going to apply to console stuff may not be valid. It is possible that Wildcard / Snail choose to ONLY support mods distributed by OW - never mind the platform so that they can piggy back even more $ .........

That's an interesting point. It hasn't occurred to me that they could use OW to bypass Steam just like it can be used to bypass Epic, MS, Sony, etc. They could remove mods from the Steam platform and consolidate them to OW so that Steam players also have to pay for premium mods. Yikes.

 

 

Regarding your comment, "They want to piggy back $ off of Modders work" it's more than that. That's how it would be at first, it's what will happen when ASA is released, but their long-term goal is to add blockchain tracking of individual items in their game(s) so that every item in the game has a unique identifier. Then they want to leverage that ability to enable/encourage RMT's between players and get a cut of all of those transactions. It goes way beyond just mods, Shi Hai wants "a piece of the action" for every RMT that happens in their games, which he's openly stated in interviews. As far as Shi Hai is concerned, blockchain/crypto/NFT garbage is the future of gaming and he wants to cash in on every transaction.

That's what Project Hermes is all about, the whole point of that game is to add blockchain/NFT garbage into the game. And, of course, even though Snail will never admit it, you can be certain that most of the money they make from ASA is going to be used to pay for development of Project Hermes. Obviously some of that money has to be spent on ASA, just to keep it running, but anyone who thinks that the money they make from ASA will be used to make any significant and noteworthy improvements to ASA is naive. It's really a money grab to fund Project Hermes and the de-evolution games published by Snail to become blockchain ripoffs.

Edited by Pipinghot
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9 hours ago, Pipinghot said:

That's an interesting point. It hasn't occurred to me that they could use OW to bypass Steam just like it can be used to bypass Epic, MS, Sony, etc. They could remove mods from the Steam platform and consolidate them to OW so that Steam players also have to pay for premium mods. Yikes.

Yeah - it goes back to the codebase. Ark has a built in "mod manager" that currently works off of a steam distribution. We could debate all day if design choice here was to enhance the game experience (by allowing easy install and distribution of mods) or a very farsighted thought around one day monetising those mods. But it don't matter, it is there. However if the guys are going to write a whole pile of new code to integrate a different source for "official" mods - I ain't sure that it makes sense for them to retain the "old" steam interface to mod code? 

Lots of games out there have 3rd party mod managers that do the same work of saving existing "assets", replacing that stuff with modded assets and so forth. In the event that Wildcard do choose to go entirely with OW, I think that we might see a similar kind of 3rd party thing for Ark popping up on github.

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1 hour ago, DirkInSA said:

Yeah - it goes back to the codebase. Ark has a built in "mod manager" that currently works off of a steam distribution. [...snip...] However if the guys are going to write a whole pile of new code to integrate a different source for "official" mods - I ain't sure that it makes sense for them to retain the "old" steam interface to mod code?

Yeah, agreed, it just hadn't occurred to me. Up till now I was thinking that they would leave things the way they are for Steam users and add OW for everyone else, but your answer makes more sense. Change ASA to OW for everyone and have a single mod system.

1 hour ago, DirkInSA said:

We could debate all day if design choice here was to enhance the game experience (by allowing easy install and distribution of mods) or a very farsighted thought around one day monetising those mods.

Agreed, no need to debate this, and frankly there's no need to. Both are true, it just depends on when in time we ask the question.

Originally - during the design and early years of ARK - it was here to enhance the game experience. The goal was to sell more copies of the game, so mods helped them monetize the game, but they had no thoughts of monetizing mods for a long time.

Currently - since Snail (Shi Hai) took over, the long term goal for everything Snail is monetizing anything and everything related to the game using web3/blockchain/NFT garbage. He discussed this publicly multiple times, there's nothing any of us need to debate about his intentions.

Two different answers at two different points in time.

1 hour ago, DirkInSA said:

Lots of games out there have 3rd party mod managers that do the same work of saving existing "assets", replacing that stuff with modded assets and so forth. In the event that Wildcard do choose to go entirely with OW, I think that we might see a similar kind of 3rd party thing for Ark popping up on github.

Yeah, I would not be at all surprised if some mod makers start using Nexus and/or R2Modman after ASA is released, if WildCard & OW make them unhappy.

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let's say the mod is ready, on PC it's easier to implement it into the game than on console.  How would this work if I wanted mod X on the ASA console?  They would have to change client features twice, once for ASE and twice for ASA.  The client would need to be customized so that: The ASE can fetch the game save from another source.  ASA for downloading mods from outside the PSN source, if the OW is to be of help, what guarantee do they give if the mod implemented on the console is not part of the console hack?

    Somehow I don't believe in properly verified mods in every way, and especially in the security of my data.  What information can OW extract from my console?  (that's too much xd) Everything you can earn?  And information is a valuable currency today.. Unless there will be a separate application like Ark Mod Manager for PC?  .  We will set the counter $$$$.$$ Kilometers/miles to zero xD.  Because the implemented OW in ASA is a blow below the belt for the console.  We don't have the ability to scan spyware or other crap on the console, we rely on the protections offered by the console.  Also: We don't know if OW will be implemented in ASA, which I think is a compulsion to use this software.  For example, let's say that I would like to play ASA (purely hypothetically, because I'm not going to buy ASA or ARK2) without using mods and OW will be implemented in the client, so the terms of use of the application are unacceptable, at least by me.  As an external application, I don't think it works on console as well.  Besides, even on PC I avoid OW like the plague, everyone has their reasons.  But I can't trust either one or the other anyway, because what's the point?  We know how valuable all the data that is obtained to build marketing is currently becoming.  And this is the other side of the $$$.$$ mileage acquired, after trimming 50% for the mod creator until selling ASA or ARK2.  Nothing important the machine has to work and convert the engine hours into beautiful kilometers/miles $$$.$$

Too many unanswered questions, it's sad how WC/SG respects the players, am I wrong?  Irony?

 

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Not to repeat the message.

I am looking for information.  They are from DE because I live in DE.  Maybe one of the german players could translate this correctly to english, that would be great.  otherwise, independent translations in external applications remain.  But I admit it sounds interesting.  So that Wild Card would be aware that players are not sitting here just for the pleasure of tapping on the keyboard and asking for more information, omitting further picture suggestions, which in the finale deviate from the original concept anyway.

EDIT:

Wildkard thinks he gave us the forum just for fun?  So that players can pour out their complaints and problems here?  This forum is your communication with the players so far 99% of it only works in one direction Player to Wild Card. 

Edited by Noffek
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  • Joebl0w13 changed the title to Closed. Ark: Survival Evolved Official Servers
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