Ark, NFTs, characters and DLTs

[Ferchi]

kkkk no thanks

[Kaprosuchus]

4 hours ago, GrumpyBear said:

 

and there it is, digital slavery.  Yes, this sounds exactly as bad as share cropping from the mid to late 1800s in the USA. 

 

Just waiting on the Nazi references , and then we are complete.

 

@Pipinghot You lost me about 15 sentences it.  There's plenty of counter points to your arguments, but I'm not looking to break down every word I chose and why I chose those words.  I'm satisfied you overanalyzed what I was writing, maybe my fault for not writing a 5 page essay here, but I don't have an axe to grind here.  I'm not going to write a book on the topic.

your response doesn't feel well thought out. seems like you are trying to belittle and demean my opinion by linking me in the minds of the reader, to people who get up in arms and compare everything to the world's worst woes instead of actually refuting anything. you could have just as easily just face palmed and moved on your way. It's not "digital slavery" sharecropping wasn't slavery. sharecropping was the act of letting others utilize your land to grow crops and do all the work in exchange for a cut of your profits.

All digital media content platforms do this now and the proceeds content creators get is small compared to the profits the platforms themselves reap.  All i was saying is that I personally do not have any interest in participating in such a process, and whatever snail games decides to cook up i guarantee you they will be profiting more than their content creators from the relationship, hence the sharecropping analogy.

[CosmicSkeleton]

I'd really rather not get invested in this. I, and I'm certain many other players pay for server services to play the game. Occasionally I accept donations directly through the rental service to rent a new map so my players know that it goes directly where I say it goes. That's the extent of my monetary ties to ark. Trying to add cryptocurrencies or nfts to what's supposed to be just a survival game just screams "grift that will kill this game". That sort of stuff has nothing to do with  ark. General negative association with nfts aside eventually someone will call for the wagons to be circled because "the dinosaur game just tried to scam muh chillin!" and it could well be all downhill from there. Wildcard can ill afford that kind of heat if it's to continue surviving. If the project is to take off then it needs to be seperate entity, elsewise it could jeopardize the thing that's actually guaranteed to draw revenue.

[GrumpyBear]

2 hours ago, Kaprosuchus said:

your response doesn't feel well thought out. seems like you are trying to belittle and demean my opinion by linking me in the minds of the reader, to people who get up in arms and compare everything to the world's worst woes instead of actually refuting anything. you could have just as easily just face palmed and moved on your way. It's not "digital slavery" sharecropping wasn't slavery. sharecropping was the act of letting others utilize your land to grow crops and do all the work in exchange for a cut of your profits.

All digital media content platforms do this now and the proceeds content creators get is small compared to the profits the platforms themselves reap.  All i was saying is that I personally do not have any interest in participating in such a process, and whatever snail games decides to cook up i guarantee you they will be profiting more than their content creators from the relationship, hence the sharecropping analogy.

I Find it entirely inappropriate to compare gaming tech to share cropping which was as bad as slavery in the USA.  So yes, I find it offensive that you would compare people being treated as less than human in comparison to activities carried out by consenting parties in 2022.

[RTGLoot]

Making a new title, Ark: metaverse evolved would be best suited for the project in the long run I believe. Perhaps hammering out a road map with the players before hand can help. Crypto has been shown to provide a means of bonding like a gift of doge so it would be nice to see that merge seamlessly with Ark but as many have pointed out it can go bad such as cash grabs and Scams

 

[Kaprosuchus]

32 minutes ago, GrumpyBear said:

I Find it entirely inappropriate to compare gaming tech to share cropping which was as bad as slavery in the USA.  So yes, I find it offensive that you would compare people being treated as less than human in comparison to activities carried out by consenting parties in 2022.

oh, you are offended. gotcha. see that isn't how you put it, just semed like you were trying to invalidate my opinion because it was contradictory to yours without really providing any data to take your opinion into the realm of fact instead it's just another opinion that differs from mine. i can't really do anything about offended, i mean i could apologize but it would be insincere and i don't really think an insincere apology would make you feel better.

[GrumpyBear]

36 minutes ago, Kaprosuchus said:

oh, you are offended. gotcha. see that isn't how you put it, just semed like you were trying to invalidate my opinion because it was contradictory to yours without really providing any data to take your opinion into the realm of fact instead it's just another opinion that differs from mine. i can't really do anything about offended, i mean i could apologize but it would be insincere and i don't really think an insincere apology would make you feel better.

The comparison between two consenting parties, who both can read and write, entering into a contract DOES NOT EQUAL to two parties , where only one party can actually read and write, entering into contract.

People did that for their lively hood and were enslaved with debt.  There's nobody being forced into predatory contracts with zero other options before them to make ends meet with NFTs.  Former slaves turned farmers had few options before them to put food on the table.  If you are trying to feed your family entering into NFT markets to trade, that is a completely voluntary activity - and stupid.

 

We shouldn't have to get into civil war era history lessons to draw comparisons.  NFTs can be discussed easily without having to go there.

 

It's just beyond absurd to include that argument into this conversation.    I responded to the absurd comparison with more absurdity.  The topic is how NFTs relate to games and what if any usefulness they might have for gaming, a leisure activity.

 

[Pipinghot]

13 hours ago, GrumpyBear said:

@Pipinghot You lost me about 15 sentences it.  There's plenty of counter points to your arguments, but I'm not looking to break down every word I chose and why I chose those words.  I'm satisfied you overanalyzed what I was writing, maybe my fault for not writing a 5 page essay here, but I don't have an axe to grind here.  I'm not going to write a book on the topic.

Soooo you write a 6-paragraph reply to my 1-sentence comment and now you want to accuse me of over analyzing your post.

Seems legit.

You have a history of good, useful, helpful-to-many people contributions on these forums, a history which is pretty impressive. Personally, I almost always enjoy your posts, but that history doesn't get you off the hook if you make a bad post.

13 hours ago, GrumpyBear said:

Easy example; you misunderstand contract law as it pertains to reselling.  If a company sells to wallmart,  Walmart can be bound by contract to observe stipulations made by the original seller.  If you resell it,  you can bind the next buyer to your own terms and conditions….. we could break down all your points but … again this starts to look like a book…

That's a good point, I did overlook this nuance of buying & reselling. Or rather it would be a good point if you were going to engage in an honest discussion. But instead you just make this attempt to "score a point", pack up your toys and go home. That's a pretty disingenuous response, one that I would have thought was beneath you.

That's a shame, really, it's hard to beat a discussion with people who bring good points and information to the table. I won't speak for anyone else, but just using my own experience I've had discussions with, disagreed with, argued with and learned things from Larkfields, Joeblow, sjskdjkfa, DirkInSA, that's just 4 of the participants in this thread alone, not to mention other names that aren't in this discussion today. Open and honest discussion is a great way to learn new things and see things from new perspectives. It's a shame that's apparently not going to happen in this case.

[Pipinghot]

@Larkfields@Joebl0w13@RTGLoot I'm not sure whether to thank you guys or hate you guys for linking those videos. Now I have two more subscriptions on youtube and just lost a couple of hours out of my day. Because dang those are good videos.

[RTGLoot]

Sorry, allow me to apologize 

[GrumpyBear]

@Pipinghot. Exaggeration a little?  I count 2,  you count 6.   Maybe we should figure out a common base counting system so that we can actually converse?

[Pipinghot]

On 4/28/2022 at 5:24 PM, GrumpyBear said:

[#1] if gamers actually wanted to pay a monthly fee to keep servers powered, then companies wouldn't have shifted to microtransactions.   Blaming them for wanting to make a profit for their shareholders is pretty silly.   IF they can't make something that holds value for players, they won't be able to sell you anything.  

[#2] IF the game is free, you are the product.

 

[#3] As a thought experiment here:  I think if all dinos bred or generated in game were NFTs, then original breeders, hunters, and WC could potentially get some sort of compensation for every clone, baby sold from player to player.   This would mean if someone bought a dino off someone , then went to resell it right away to a subcommunity they are more plugged into - the originator of the dino would potentially be compensated for their efforts still.  It could reduce the windfall benefit to the person who added little value to the transaction.  WildCard could have a stable flow of income generated that pays for salaries, server hardware, bandwidth.  We could have more active and effective admin on official servers....   or they could just milk the players , not take care of things, and they would shed players to more attractive games.......

 

[#4] Compare that with what it is today; WC spends x amount of $ on enforcement over online $ selling. WC makes $0 on any RMT, breeders $0, original stat hunters $0 , everyone can be insided and stolen from, buyers becoming traders become predatory, and competition reselling your 1000 hours of breeding for 2 tek ceilings on the 100 tek ceilings of your time and efforts all because they haggled for a great deal on 6 eggs?  Or how about the spino with 150 points in melee that you spent months on making, you see being sold for $7 an egg.  Can you stop that person? sue that person? force them to give you a cut? no.

[#5] The moment stuff I trade for materials in game, is being resold for $ - then things are different.  Even in the real world of business, I have legal recourse over reselling of products.  Contracts are formed, signed, and enforceable.  The moment someone's reselling my work, shouldn't I have some rights?  I'm selling a product that has it's roots in someone else's product, do they have some rights? Yes they do.  This exists today in the real world of business.

[#6] Your cell phone, pc - all pay a cut to the chipmakers for every chip sold.  Every blank CD I ever bought in the 90s, paid a cut to the record companies because they could have stored music even though all i put on there was anime.  MCA records used to be owned by Matsushi....(the site here will change this japanese name because it looks like a bad word in english)ta ,  who owned Pioneer/Panasonic who happened to make cd's - they were paying themselves 2 ways for every blank cd sold.

@GrumpyBearNope, no exaggeration. Swing and a miss.

You're the one who put the paragraph breaks into your post, not me. Or perhaps you're claiming that you don't actually understand how paragraphs work and you just randomly hit the Enter 6 times without knowing why you were doing it.

 

Is this seriously your idea of an honest conversation?

[GrumpyBear]

6 hours ago, Pipinghot said:

@GrumpyBearNope, no exaggeration. Swing and a miss.

You're the one who put the paragraph breaks into your post, not me. Or perhaps you're claiming that you don't actually understand how paragraphs work and you just randomly hit the Enter 6 times without knowing why you were doing it.

 

Is this seriously your idea of an honest conversation?

maybe you need to check the thread again, I posted that long before I responded to your post - which came after this particular post.  The post I responded to you with had 2 paragraphs after I linked your @Pipinghot.

 

Ah ha, I see where you get that.  That was a few posts ago.  So I guess we are just reaching back as far as we want to make a point?  Fair enough, I responded to your one line with 6 small paragraphs.  Which you followed up with lots of inaccuracy with plenty that was spot on. 

But for example:

ie - needlessly breaking down gamers into a non- 'monolithic' group.... obviously there's plenty of different types of gamers - but people with cellphones are gamers too , just like xbox players, pc gamers - as a whole - they all face microtransactions in games on every platform.   As a group, even with different reasons for gaming , they all are faced with similar market forces fighting for their $.

 

Microtransactions came about after the PC gaming market was oversaturated with monthly subscription style games.  At the same time, cell phones became computers that played games, home entertainment systems were as powerful as pcs, and PC computer sales was dropping.  Game makers were having to make some decisions on what products to work on , and microtransactions came about as an answer to some of these factors.   Microtransactions today aren't going away because people on all platforms are playing those games and giving them money.  With that in mind, I felt it was entirely appropriate to refer to gamers as a whole considering they are all facing the exact same business model on whatever platform they play on, however old they are, and whatever country they are based in.....and whatever solutions that come about and work on one platform, will eventually find their way onto other platforms.  So everyone , no matter what subgroup of gamers that are - will be effected.

 

You also mentioned how original breeders do get compensated for their efforts - that's not entirely accurate either.    Ask any original breeder what they think of NOVA on discord, they were well hated early on because they would simply buy stuff off everyone and then resell it in their channel using other peoples work to draw in the players.  Most of us were annoyed, dealt with them, but at the same time resent them for turning it all into what discord trading became.  IF you didn't deal with them, they would just buy 6 eggs, then list it for sale 2 days later.  So you join the circus.

As someone who has bred bloodlines to 20 mutations on melee all on my own, I've seen the work I've done resold for $, resold for 10 tek an egg undercutting my prices and reducing my in game trading.   I see people resell the stuff I made with worse color combos, or  even ruin the composition of the stats I put together, and people claiming they did the mutating.  I personally would like to see something that gives respect back to original breeders and hunters who catch the stats.   The dino ancestry can easily be washed and is a failure in this regard.  Any breeders I've talked with feel similarly, so I talk in broad generalities because I have had the conversations already with many.   And many of us , would trade for $ if we were allowed to, we don't because we don't want our accounts banned and we play by the rules.  But rules only work on those who follow them. 

It does ruin every players experience when others don't.  Many servers are just warehouses for RMT traders obfuscating their operations and diversifying their locations just in case they get shut down.    If it was all above board, these people wouldn't need to keep 4 separate servers with separate accounts in order to evade detection or completely being wiped by devs. 

I've done market research on this very topic for companies and know that many detractors consider hating crypto as a religion or treat it very politically.  I was trying to avoid those conversations, but alas...

 

[RTGLoot]

 

[Pipinghot]

On 5/2/2022 at 11:42 AM, GrumpyBear said:

maybe you need to check the thread again, I posted that long before I responded to your post - which came after this particular post.  The post I responded to you with had 2 paragraphs after I linked your @Pipinghot.

 

Ah ha, I see where you get that.  That was a few posts ago.  So I guess we are just reaching back as far as we want to make a point?

Don't try to blame me if you can't follow the sequence of a conversation that you yourself have participated in. That's not "reaching back as far as we want" it's simply following the sequence of the conversation and being able to understand what's written on the page, a page you can review at will by scrolling back. It's not a difficult skill to master.

The bottom line is that you misinterpreted what you were reading and now you're trying to blame me for your mistake, not going to work.

On 5/2/2022 at 11:42 AM, GrumpyBear said:

But for example:

ie - needlessly breaking down gamers into a non- 'monolithic' group.... obviously there's plenty of different types of gamers - but people with cellphones are gamers too , just like xbox players, pc gamers - as a whole - they all face microtransactions in games on every platform.   As a group, even with different reasons for gaming , they all are faced with similar market forces fighting for their $.

Yes, agreed, it's obvious that there are plenty of types of gamers which is exactly why your statement, "if gamers actually wanted to pay a monthly fee to keep servers powered, then companies wouldn't have shifted to microtransactions." was wrong.

You made a claim that was demonstrably false, and when you make a claim like that you can't complain when someone points out that it's false. For you to describe that as "needlessly breaking down gamers" is a dishonest argument, you're trying to doge the fact that you posted a false argument and it got debunked.

On 5/2/2022 at 11:42 AM, GrumpyBear said:

Microtransactions came about after the PC gaming market was oversaturated with monthly subscription style games.  At the same time, cell phones became computers that played games, home entertainment systems were as powerful as pcs, and PC computer sales was dropping.  Game makers were having to make some decisions on what products to work on , and microtransactions came about as an answer to some of these factors.   Microtransactions today aren't going away because people on all platforms are playing those games and giving them money.

Also agreed, which is further information that helps explain why your original claim was false. You blamed gamers for microtransactions, which is simply not true, they are the result of a complicated gaming market and the decisions that game companies made in order to try to make (more) money.

On 5/2/2022 at 11:42 AM, GrumpyBear said:

With that in mind, I felt it was entirely appropriate to refer to gamers as a whole considering they are all facing the exact same business model on whatever platform they play on, however old they are, and whatever country they are based in.....and whatever solutions that come about and work on one platform, will eventually find their way onto other platforms.  So everyone , no matter what subgroup of gamers that are - will be effected.

Also agreed, all gamers "will be affected", but that's not what you said at the beginning of this conversation. The things you are saying now are not the same things you said in the post that I was replying to. You made a different claim in that post, one that was easily falsifiable.

On 5/2/2022 at 11:42 AM, GrumpyBear said:

You also mentioned how original breeders do get compensated for their efforts - that's not entirely accurate either.    Ask any original breeder what they think of NOVA on discord, they were well hated early on because they would simply buy stuff off everyone and then resell it in their channel using other peoples work to draw in the players.  Most of us were annoyed, dealt with them, but at the same time resent them for turning it all into what discord trading became.  IF you didn't deal with them, they would just buy 6 eggs, then list it for sale 2 days later.  So you join the circus.

Let's start with what we agree on here - many breeders are dissatisfied with their compensation and are unhappy with what NOVA does in the trading sphere. Heck, I'll even stipulate that my previous comment was wrong, it is not merely a pricing and negotiation problem. There is an actual problem that's happening in the trading sphere that needs to be addressed.

The problem is that the point you're making (which I agree with) completely ignores the context of what you're replying to, "...they just don't get compensated with real money, which is how it should be." I wasn't discussing the amount of compensation, I was discussing the type of compensation. If NOVA is causing a problem with trading in ARK then that should definitely be addressed. That could possibly be addressed by all of the unhappy breeders forming their own trading consortium,  or maybe it should be addressed by WildCard (like now, today, since NFT's can't exist in ARK yet). But no matter how it gets addressed it has nothing to do with my point. You have every right to complain about how the trading Discord is working, you have every right to be unhappy. If breeders are getting the short end of the deal then I'm supportive -but- that has nothing to do with whether it's better to trade using in-game resources or RMT's.

My point was, and still is, that compensation should never be in the form of RMT's. The trading of a game's sources between players should only ever take place using in-game resources. Any use of RMT's only makes a game worse, never better.

On 5/2/2022 at 11:42 AM, GrumpyBear said:

But rules only work on those who follow them.

Agreed, which is a problem in RL too, but that doesn't mean that you throw out the baby with the bath water. If there's a good reason for something to be illegal then the appropriate response is to work harder at enforcement, not to make it legal just so the system can get a piece of the action from the illegal activity. For WC to allow and support RMT's is not the path to making ARK better, it's the path to converting ARK into Eve Online-but-with-dinosaurs.

As noted previously, if that's the future of ARK you want to be part of it's your right to prefer that kind of environment, but personally I find that awful.

On 5/2/2022 at 11:42 AM, GrumpyBear said:

It does ruin every players experience when others don't.  Many servers are just warehouses for RMT traders obfuscating their operations and diversifying their locations just in case they get shut down.

Which means that WC (and Snail Games) have done a terrible job of building a system that enables them to ban people more effectively for RMT's.

On 5/2/2022 at 11:42 AM, GrumpyBear said:

If it was all above board, these people wouldn't need to keep 4 separate servers with separate accounts in order to evade detection or completely being wiped by devs.

It's pretty clear at this point that we have fundamentally different value systems. You believe that RMT's between players make a game better, whereas I think they can only make a game worse. You're certainly entitled to your opinion on that matter but, in the Western gaming markets, the majority of players don't agree with you. Personally, I'll always fight against RMT's no matter what excuses are given.

On 5/2/2022 at 11:42 AM, GrumpyBear said:

I've done market research on this very topic for companies and know that many detractors consider hating crypto as a religion or treat it very politically.  I was trying to avoid those conversations, but alas...

This isn't about liking or hating crypto, that's another red herring. It's about liking or hating RMT's between players.

If Shi Hai, Snail Games and WildCard were going to use NFT's as a way to do everything in their power to get rid of RMT's that would be great, but they plan to do the opposite which is awful. Shi Hai is not looking at NFT's as a way to make the game better, he's wants to use them to make sure Snail Games gets their cut from every scummy RMT in their game space.

[Pipinghot]

On 5/2/2022 at 4:10 AM, Pipinghot said:

@Larkfields@Joebl0w13@RTGLoot I'm not sure whether to thank you guys or hate you guys for linking those videos. Now I have two more subscriptions on youtube and just lost a couple of hours out of my day. Because dang those are good videos.

@Larkfields@Joebl0w13@RTGLoot

Following up on the various video links, thought you guys might find this site interesting.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

[Joebl0w13]

11 minutes ago, Pipinghot said:

@Larkfields@Joebl0w13@RTGLoot

Following up on the various video links, thought you guys might find this site interesting.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

Was looking at that site this weekend lol. Count me out.

[DirkInSA]

3 hours ago, Pipinghot said:

@Larkfields@Joebl0w13@RTGLoot

Following up on the various video links, thought you guys might find this site interesting.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

LOL - it dont look very promising do it !!!!

[RTGLoot]

 Storing ai in crypto to make smarter enemies has my interest. However I probably deserve a spot at the end of the page. The metaverse tribe has one member as of now and I can not add a topic to it. 

[Larkfields]

15 hours ago, Pipinghot said:

@Larkfields@Joebl0w13@RTGLoot

Following up on the various video links, thought you guys might find this site interesting.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

I'm filled with confidence !
Not 😞

[Joebl0w13]

Another interesting article floating in the interwebz:

https://snail.com/news/snail-games-and-the-metaverse

Not a single game rag has picked this one up. Odd.

[MMaas]

4 hours ago, Joebl0w13 said:

Another interesting article floating in the interwebz:

https://snail.com/news/snail-games-and-the-metaverse

Not a single game rag has picked this one up. Odd.

Interesting read, still undecided.
NFT's are the equivilent of E=Mc²: When used right a good tool.
Just not sure everyone has good intentions...

[Pipinghot]

7 hours ago, Joebl0w13 said:

Another interesting article floating in the interwebz:

https://snail.com/news/snail-games-and-the-metaverse

Not a single game rag has picked this one up. Odd.

"Real money trading in multiplayer games have been a major topic that is frowned upon by single-player game developers even until now. I believe this is just a lack of understanding of each other."

Well, at least he's consistent. That's supposedly a virtue... or something.

Translation: He has never seen anything wrong with P2W games and he believes that using RMT's to cheat in a game is just fine. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone since he has his roots developing from Chinese gaming culture, where P2W and RMT cheating have been generally accepted right from the beginning. This has always been a source of major conflicts between western gaming culture and eastern gaming culture.

As with his other interviews and public statements, all he cares about is that Snail games gets a cut, that they get "a piece of the action". He doesn't care about cheating nor about games being P2W as long as his company can dig their fingers into that pie and dig out a slice for themselves. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone since Snail games already has a history of publishing P2W games in the mobile space. His goal is to do the same thing in the PC space and to convince people that this is all okay. He's trying to hide behind the curtain of new technologies to try to convince people that this is all ok and that this is what they should want in the future.

If you're someone who is ok with RMT's and P2W games then you probably see nothing wrong with what he's saying. If you like P2W games and RMT's then I don't expect anything I say here will change your mind.

But for anyone who prefers games in which people succeed by actually playing the game, you should be aware that Snail/Wildcard is fully on board with P2W & with RMT cheating. What he has consistently been doing is trying to use magic words like "Metaverse" and "Web3" in attempts to convince people that RMT cheating is okay and that they should be more accepting of it in the future.

[RTGLoot]

 So is this Project H 

[Joebl0w13]

3 hours ago, Pipinghot said:

"Real money trading in multiplayer games have been a major topic that is frowned upon by single-player game developers even until now. I believe this is just a lack of understanding of each other."

Well, at least he's consistent. That's supposedly a virtue... or something.

Translation: He has never seen anything wrong with P2W games and he believes that using RMT's to cheat in a game is just fine. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone since he has his roots developing from Chinese gaming culture, where P2W and RMT cheating have been generally accepted right from the beginning. This has always been a source of major conflicts between western gaming culture and eastern gaming culture.

As with his other interviews and public statements, all he cares about is that Snail games gets a cut, that they get "a piece of the action". He doesn't care about cheating nor about games being P2W as long as his company can dig their fingers into that pie and dig out a slice for themselves. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone since Snail games already has a history of publishing P2W games in the mobile space. His goal is to do the same thing in the PC space and to convince people that this is all okay. He's trying to hide behind the curtain of new technologies to try to convince people that this is all ok and that this is what they should want in the future.

If you're someone who is ok with RMT's and P2W games then you probably see nothing wrong with what he's saying. If you like P2W games and RMT's then I don't expect anything I say here will change your mind.

But for anyone who prefers games in which people succeed by actually playing the game, you should be aware that Snail/Wildcard is fully on board with P2W & with RMT cheating. What he has consistently been doing is trying to use magic words like "Metaverse" and "Web3" in attempts to convince people that RMT cheating is okay and that they should be more accepting of it in the future.

Sadly that was my take on it as well.