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Breeding: How to avoid all the math?


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14 hours ago, lordbufu said:

That was the whole point of the suggestion honestly, super dino lines tend to push the level cap, and in most cases all the other stats are irrelevant.

Yeah, but my main point was two things.

First, you see a lot of people doing this that don't need to.  I'm fairly certain they don't understand breeding and they think they're going to get mutations faster by mating with a level 7.   There's SOOOOO much bad information out there regarding breeding.    Syntax's mutation guide is actually linked on the wiki and this is a guy who thought a torpor mutation was a thing.

Second, you really have to be honest on what kind of returns you're going to get.   If you're pushing max level you've already got an incredible dinosaur and to go any further you're going to have to sacrifice another stat, so just... why?

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On 6/21/2021 at 1:52 PM, Zapha said:

OK, now I understand why I can't use leveled dinos for improving stats. Thanks.

But I have just found the two missing zero-points-stat eggs. I have now for each stat a zero-point egg, one of them has even two stats with zero points. As next I try to combine them and make two breeding lines, one for hp and one for melee. I guess I need a while for this.

There's only 2 purposes for a female w/ zero points in every stat.

Reason 1) cloning lots and lots of breeder copies - this is as cheap as it can get.  No waiting days for them to raise, and spending as little element as possible buildling up a breeder army for mutations.

Reason 2) It makes spotting babies that pop a mutation , much easier to find.  If your stud has zeros in every stat, except the stat you are looking to mutate, then when all the babies hatch lvl 50 , 1, 50 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 50 , 50 , 50 , 50.... u know when you get a mutation when you see a baby come out lvl 3, or lvl 52.  The level 3 is obviously trash since that one means u mutated a zero up to 2.  The only baby you need to claim and look at is that lvl 52.  That baby is either, 51 in 1 stat(the goal), or 49 still in the target stat(failure) and 2 points on a stat u didn't want.    

Reason 2 is a pretty solid reason to go through the effort of zeroing out all stats, but it's not necessary, and does little to speed up the process other than saving you some time later on.  You are going to invest a lot of time on the front end of things, to begin to save that time on the backend.

Edited by GrumpyBear
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10 hours ago, theopheus said:

Yeah, but my main point was two things.

First, you see a lot of people doing this that don't need to.  I'm fairly certain they don't understand breeding and they think they're going to get mutations faster by mating with a level 7.   There's SOOOOO much bad information out there regarding breeding.    Syntax's mutation guide is actually linked on the wiki and this is a guy who thought a torpor mutation was a thing.

Second, you really have to be honest on what kind of returns you're going to get.   If you're pushing max level you've already got an incredible dinosaur and to go any further you're going to have to sacrifice another stat, so just... why?

Super breeding/super dino lines (as i learned it at least) is aimed at creating the best possible dino(s) for a single task within said level cap. Once you start making dinos for a single task, you usually end up only needing 2/3 stats (there are exceptions to that), witch means your not sacrificing anything as your simply not using the other stats to begin with (thus, much like speed, there wasted points). And for super breeding the return is kind of a mood point anyways, i would even argue that this is the case for anything above 20 mutation on 1 parental side honestly, its more of a thing to do when your bored or want a in-game hobby/job.

Witch bring us back to the first point, the terminology on the subject is a mess yes, and that is causing the most confusion across the board. Witch made me kinda lazy over times, as i have to keep explaining what i mean when i say something on a forum, witch usually end in a wall of text (or like now a back an forth about a simple misunderstanding). Super breeding is mentioned on the wiki, but the explanation on it is a mess, but is there in the way that i just explained it sorta (witch is where said video is that you are referring to).

The same thing applies for stat shaving and colors, if you ask or read about it you get a wide range opinions on the subject, but only a few are correct.

I can give an opinion on why that is, but i really don't want to stir the pot, as its not my hill to die on and not the topic for a discussion about that.

Edited by lordbufu
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Now, that i have thought a day over this "only post tames stats are entailed", I'm a bit disappointed. I don't know what top stats can be found in the wilderness, but if the others say anything over 30 points in a stat can be used for breeding, that means that maybe ~50 points is the best you can find. (If the number is higher, tell me please).

That means for stat breeding there is a wall. After you have found this top stat dino then all what's left for you is the painful mutation breeding.

Whatever, the displaying of the point distribution in the incubator should also be possible for tamed dinos, this would help so much for those like me who don't want the immersion destroyed with permanent alt-tabbing.

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46 minutes ago, Zapha said:

Now, that i have thought a day over this "only post tames stats are entailed", I'm a bit disappointed. I don't know what top stats can be found in the wilderness, but if the others say anything over 30 points in a stat can be used for breeding, that means that maybe ~50 points is the best you can find. (If the number is higher, tell me please).

That means for stat breeding there is a wall. After you have found this top stat dino then all what's left for you is the painful mutation breeding.

Whatever, the displaying of the point distribution in the incubator should also be possible for tamed dinos, this would help so much for those like me who don't want the immersion destroyed with permanent alt-tabbing.

InMyNotSoHumbleOpinion - The best thing to do starting out, is breed all your best clean no mutation stats together.  Pick every one from what you see visually on each of your tames.  Then when you get a baby that has your best HP/MD (0 mutations) or whatever combo you are trying for.   I like to put all my best of every stat together right away.   THen you know exactly what each baby will have.  THen if they are eggs, you can tell right away what #s you are working w/ on incubators.  THen go for your mutations.  WHen they happen, one stat will be different than expected, there might even be a new color you haven't seen. 

Edited by GrumpyBear
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11 hours ago, Zapha said:

Now, that i have thought a day over this "only post tames stats are entailed", I'm a bit disappointed.

The game would be ridiculously easy to beat if they didn't do things this way. If you could level up a dino and then pass those stats on to the next generation then everyone in the game would have max level dino's in a very short time.

11 hours ago, Zapha said:

I don't know what top stats can be found in the wilderness, but if the others say anything over 30 points in a stat can be used for breeding, that means that maybe ~50 points is the best you can find. (If the number is higher, tell me please).

50 points is about the best you can find and they're very rare. Most of the time you'll be working with stats from 30-40.

 The thing you need to keep in mind is that you only need stats from 30-40 do do boss fights. Obviously the fights will be easier if all of the important stats on your dino's are higher, but it's not completely necessary. Good saddles are also important and can make up for any stats that aren't great. And of course good tactics make a huge difference. Super stats are not as important as many people think they are.

Here's are three examples for you:

1) When we did Alpha Broodmother on The Island we used:

Megatherium - HP 37, Melee 37

2) When we did Alpha Megapithecus on The Island we used:

Rex - HP 35, Melee 35

3) When we did the Alpha Dragon and the Alpha Overseer on The Island we used the following dinos:

Therizinos - HP 32, Melee 38

* We also used a yutyrannus for the buff that it gives and a daeodon for healing, but the stats of the yuty and the daeodon aren't important, they just have to be good enough to stay alive.

 

Those are the stats we completely finished breeding. We got a few mutations during the breeding process but we didn't do any extra work to get mutations on purpose. You'll notice that none of the important stats were higher than 40.

11 hours ago, Zapha said:

That means for stat breeding there is a wall. After you have found this top stat dino then all what's left for you is the painful mutation breeding.

True.

ARK is fundamentally a game of taming, followed by breeding, with mutations only coming into play if you're absolutely trying to get the best stats.

* Best way to get high stats is to tame a lot of dino's until you get lucky on a few tames and get some good stats.

* Then you breed those dino's together into your bloodline.

* You only need mutations if you're trying for super-dino's.

11 hours ago, Zapha said:

Whatever, the displaying of the point distribution in the incubator should also be possible for tamed dinos, this would help so much for those like me who don't want the immersion destroyed with permanent alt-tabbing.

That sounds like a good suggestion for the Suggestions forum, just be aware that it's not likely that WildCard will make that change to a game that they're almost done with. It's understandable that you want this, but if you want to do breeding then you're going to need to prepare yourself for alt-tabbing and doing the math.

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14 hours ago, lordbufu said:

The same thing applies for stat shaving and colors, if you ask or read about it you get a wide range opinions on the subject, but only a few are correct.

I can give an opinion on why that is, but i really don't want to stir the pot, as its not my hill to die on and not the topic for a discussion about that.

I don't understand breeding for colors unless you're looking for a color that WC just won't put in an event like Purple.  I'd rather wait a whole year to get an event dino than randomly hope to get the color you want to pop up.   There's nothing fun about breeding to me.  It's sitting around your base doing nothing.  It's necessary, but not fun.  Just another grind in this grindy game.

14 hours ago, Zapha said:

Now, that i have thought a day over this "only post tames stats are entailed", I'm a bit disappointed. I don't know what top stats can be found in the wilderness, but if the others say anything over 30 points in a stat can be used for breeding, that means that maybe ~50 points is the best you can find. (If the number is higher, tell me please).

I wouldn't bother breeding anything under 40 points in a stat, but that's just me.   I actually try to get above 45 if I can help it.   50 isn't the "best" you can find, it's just that it's super rare, so anything over 50 is the point where you can probably stop taming.    I just tamed a Mantis with 53 points in melee the other night and I have a Doed lying around in SP with 56 points in weight I think.

If your breeding line starts at 45 and you start getting a few mutations and you're at 49 now, but then you tame a wild with 51 points in the stat, you have to ask yourself is it worth re-breeding from scratch to save yourself a few mutations on the counter?  To me it is, but that's just me.

Fliers can get really high numbers because they always have 0 points in speed which gives them a greater distribution to the other stats.  

I'm not good enough at math to figure out if 40-50 is the point spread you want in a regular dino with 7 stats, then what the goal should be for a flier with 6 stats.  I can say that Tek Dinos you should be looking for something in the 48-60 range, but since Tek Dinos only have a 5% chance to spawn, most people still compare them to regular dinos.    If you're looking to breed Stegos are Parasaurs you shouldn't have too much of an issue, but if you're looking to breed Tek Rexes, or Quetz, then they're few and far in between.

And obviously Deinonychus you're lucky if you get over 30 points in a stat, since they max at 150.   Wyverns or Drakes you want something above 33, with numbers around 42 being the equivalent of a 50 point tame in a normal dino.  Of course you still can't breed Drakes.

Edited by theopheus
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8 hours ago, theopheus said:

I wouldn't bother breeding anything under 40 points in a stat, but that's just me.

I have now collected ~200 eggs, but all I have found were two with 30 points in HP and one with 30 points in STA. That means (at least for deinos) 30 is already the best you can find with a normal search time.

My goal is not to beat alpha bosses, I just want unlock some tek structures, so I try it with 30 points.

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8 hours ago, theopheus said:

I don't understand breeding for colors unless you're looking for a color that WC just won't put in an event like Purple.  I'd rather wait a whole year to get an event dino than randomly hope to get the color you want to pop up.   There's nothing fun about breeding to me.  It's sitting around your base doing nothing.  It's necessary, but not fun.  Just another grind in this grindy game.

No i meant in terms of when to breed in colors and when to shave stats :P

I love events, great time to get color templates, some more enjoyable then others 🙃

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Basically said, it is very easy to taylor your own "perfect" Dino.
If it's done right. And yes, you need to do a bit of easy math.
As other already pointed out, the "Smart Breeder" app is your best friend.

Ok, let's do an example:

It is important to plan ahead. What should be the end stats of your dino?
ARK has a 450 Level Cap. So you aim for 449 Level in total (that includes the level you get from leveling).
So with standard creatures you aim for 376 in total levels (+73 levels).
And with newer creatures you aim for 361 levels (+88 levels).
Oh, and another hint: NO Imprinting/leveling during breeding. I will make it harder to keep track of the stats.

Let's take my old Rex line (Standard Rex, +73 Level) as example.
My Goal:
- 150 Level in Health.
- 38 Level in Stamina
- 187 Level in Melee
That's 375 Level + 1 Base Level = 376
After leveling (+73 Level) = 449

First Step - Hunting for bad Dinos:
Get low level Rexes. As low as you can. Also make sure you ruin the tame to NOT get extra Levels. Sounds crazy, i know. But that is how it work.
You wan't to get Dinos with Zero points spend in those unwanted leves:
- Oxygen
- Food
- Weight
- Speed

2nd Step - Hunting for good Dinos:
Tame High Level Dinos with the best efficency you can get. You are looking for a Rex with:
- Stamina close or equal to 38
- Health as high as possible
- Melee as high as possible

Note: since Mutation (which come into play a bit later) alsways add two levels to a stat we want to have Stamina and Health with an even Number, and Melee with an uneven number.

Third Step - Create your base Couple:
Let's say you found enough rexes with the folowing Stats:
- Oxygen, Food, Weight, Speed = 0 Levels
- Health = 38 Levels
- Stamina = 32 Levels
- Melee = 44 Levels

Now you breed all your rexes to get exactly those stats, eliminating all other numbers.
Make sure you get a Male AND a female that looks like:
Health: 38
Stamina: 32
Oxygen: 0
Food: 0
Weight: 0
Melee: 44
Speed: 0
Make sure that there are ZERO Mutations!
That is your Base Pair you are going to work with.

4th Step - Mutation Lines
Now we want to create Mutation Lines for Health, Stamina and Melee.

Breed your Pair until you get a Mutation in one of the wanted Stats.
Let's say you got a Mutation in Health (that's 40 Points now):
- If it's a female, breed it with the base Male until you get a male with the mutated Health. Breed that Male with the base female.
- If you get a Male, continue breeding with the base Female
(you want to stack all Mutations on the Fathers side. Also makes it easier because you could use multiple base Females. But that is advanced stuff)
Continue breeding until you get another mutation in the same Stat (next would be 42 points). Keep breeding your new +2 Mutations Male with basic females until you get the next Health Mutation (44 Points)... and so on.
From here it is just rinse and repeat.
Your health line is finished when you reach your desired number (150 Levels in health).

When done, you go back to your basic Male/Female and do the same to get a stamina and a Melee line.

In the end, you get a Rex with 150 Health, another one with 38 Stamina and one with 187 in Melee.
All other Stats on all Rexes are at 0.

5th Step - Breed the perfect pair
Now you cross breed those 3 Lines together. From here on you don't have to worry about male/female anymore. Just keep breeding.
(if all three of your Mutation lines ended up with only males or females, use your base Rexes to get a baby with the correct stats/gender)

If you are done, you have your own genetically taylored Rex with:
Health: 150
Stamina: 38
Oxygen: 0
Food: 0
Weight: 0
Melee: 187
Speed: 0

That's 376 Levels in total, +73 domesticated levels = 449 Levels
Make sure you have a Male and a Female with those Stats (and zero additional mutations).
That will be your breeding pair for your perfect Rexes. Every Baby will have those Stats for sure.

Now take your perfect pair, breed a new baby, imprint and level it and enjoy the Monster you created! ;)

PS: some Smart Breeder Screenshots included to show the results of this example/my breeding line.

neu.jpg

potential.jpg

Edited by Zayisha
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On 6/24/2021 at 7:00 AM, Zayisha said:

And with newer creatures you aim for 361 levels (+88 levels).

This is incorrect.  The newer dinos from genesis 1 x-dinos,  max level is 500.  They can have 411 stat points + 1 base level + 88 added levels = level 500.

 

I haven’t read anything on the new r-dinos,  but my guess is same as x ones until I read otherwise.

Edited by GrumpyBear
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5 hours ago, GrumpyBear said:

This is incorrect.  The newer dinos from genesis 1 x-dinos,  max level is 500.  They can have 411 stat points + 1 base level + 88 added levels = level 500.

 

I haven’t read anything on the new r-dinos,  but my guess is same as x ones until I read otherwise.

They don't get deleted when they pass 450?!
When did they change that? Completely missed it.

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11 hours ago, GrumpyBear said:

This is incorrect.  The newer dinos from genesis 1 x-dinos,  max level is 500.  They can have 411 stat points + 1 base level + 88 added levels = level 500.

 

I haven’t read anything on the new r-dinos,  but my guess is same as x ones until I read otherwise.

Slowly but surely the light at the end of my breeding project tunnel vision seems to fade, dint look into the variation specifics yet (only knew about the extra xp levels), but yeah now i have all kinds of new ideas for serious improvements lol .... Yippee ¿ 🙃

 

On 6/24/2021 at 4:00 PM, Zayisha said:

potential.jpg

Also; Very nicely detailed, just once question people might be able to clarify on, i just do these projects for fun atm on SP and was wondering if you actually end up using the 40k health (imprinted). If i'm not mistaken there are 50k health once being traded on official, it seems like overkill to me for content i have cleared without mutated beast so far, just wondering if i'm missing something obvious along the line somewhere.

Always wondered but never bothered to actually ask, kinda thing basically.

Edited by lordbufu
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21 hours ago, lordbufu said:

Also; Very nicely detailed, just once question people might be able to clarify on, i just do these projects for fun atm on SP and was wondering if you actually end up using the 40k health (imprinted). If i'm not mistaken there are 50k health once being traded on official, it seems like overkill to me for content i have cleared without mutated beast so far, just wondering if i'm missing something obvious along the line somewhere.

Always wondered but never bothered to actually ask, kinda thing basically.

No, you don't miss something there.

My Rex Line (and other Dinos i breeded the same way) are simply Overkill. Mostly i do it for fun to see, what's the best i can get within 449 Levels.
And since i do Bossfights solo a lot of time it's helpfull and gives a bit of error margin (my private server uses official Stats, exect breeding time).
Beside that it's overkill. Especially when they are fully leveled.

So with 1 to 3 People playing together, it just makes things easier/more conveniant.

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