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No Flyers Is A Great Thing


ForzaProiettile

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Every Genesis Flyer topic pro or against; everywhere, is moot.  Bloodstalker exists and is perhaps the most OP mount ever in ARK.  Gasbags work fine.  There was no point to disable flyer mounting because between those two tames you can air quotes "fly" anywhere.  The only thing the flyer disable did was prevent Wyvern's in the new map and piss alot of people off.  (Wyverns are also prevented from teleporting and some how my 200 Lightning Wyvern doesnt kill X-Creatures all that well anyway (headscratch).

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1 hour ago, TheMadhatt3r said:

Every Genesis Flyer topic pro or against; everywhere, is moot.  Bloodstalker exists and is perhaps the most OP mount ever in ARK.  Gasbags work fine.  There was no point to disable flyer mounting because between those two tames you can air quotes "fly" anywhere.  The only thing the flyer disable did was prevent Wyvern's in the new map and piss alot of people off.  (Wyverns are also prevented from teleporting and some how my 200 Lightning Wyvern doesnt kill X-Creatures all that well anyway (headscratch).

I think it is to prevent platform quetz and thus make space whale taming easy-mode. As of now, you need to kill the moeder to unlock the skiff, then craft said skiff before adding cannons to it.

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On 2/27/2020 at 5:41 PM, Rakkasan said:

Fresiki,

While you certainly make some valid points concerning your preferences for flying creatures and the like, I think you really didn't treat Forza fairly. Why is that you feel so justified in voicing your view (which, by the way, may not be the majority view); in exercising your freedom, but want to crush Forza for voicing his (her) opinion? Forza has some strong beliefs about the nature of the game and you can tell that this is not coming from an uniformed, inexperienced person. Maybe Forza is right. Maybe not. Clearly you disagree. That's your right. But why attack Forza for simply doing what you are doing, namely stating your point of view? Instead of attacking Forza why not, if you feel the need, simply stick to disagreeing and citing the reasons then stopping? We don't have to agree but we can at least be civil.

Maybe I was a bit harsh in my tone. However.. I live under the assumption that the reason to make a postulation or ask a question is to get a response or a confirmation. If the reason behind making this thread was to state the ultimate truth or some other impossibility, I'll stand corrected, but I'm (fairly) assuming that the OP either wants feedback on their point of view, or want to shove their point of view down other people's throats, proverbially speaking. If it's the latter, well... I'll read what I want and say what I want, just like OP. If it's the former, I am still giving them what they want. I was only being truthful that I won't read the post. Maybe I should have stated that my reason is because I've seen this whole discussion play itself out before. I have literally read the exact same argument word for word in the exact same discussion in a different game I've used to play. It polarized people into the exactly same two camps, and it was the exact same banter going back and forth, as is going on on the forums in the "What, no fliers? Seriously?" threads right now. The idea that luxery kills desire is hardly new or profound.

He or she is implying with their  words that people that aren't okay with the recent changes to the game are casual, bad, afraid of new things, stuck in the same old pattern, and a bunch of other negative characteristics. Hey guess what, I didn't like the no flier thing, so guess who he's talking about? Me. I'm merely responding and defending my position against an open-ended attack (this thread). I think it's fair that there's some gruff in between my words when what I just said is actually the case. Read his post word for word and explain to me how it isn't if you disagree. So that's mostly why I won't bother reading the post.

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6 minutes ago, Fresiki said:

Maybe I was a bit harsh in my tone. However.. I live under the assumption that the reason to make a postulation or ask a question is to get a response or a confirmation. If the reason behind making this thread was to state the ultimate truth or some other impossibility, I'll stand corrected, but I'm (fairly) assuming that the OP either wants feedback on their point of view, or want to shove their point of view down other people's throats, proverbially speaking. If it's the latter, well... I'll read what I want and say what I want, just like OP. If it's the former, I am still giving them what they want. I was only being truthful that I won't read the post. Maybe I should have stated that my reason is because I've seen this whole discussion play itself out before. I have literally read the exact same argument word for word in the exact same discussion in a different game I've used to play. It polarized people into the exactly same two camps, and it was the exact same banter going back and forth, as is going on on the forums in the "What, no fliers? Seriously?" threads right now. The idea that luxery kills desire is hardly new or profound.

He or she is implying with their  words that people that aren't okay with the recent changes to the game are casual, bad, afraid of new things, stuck in the same old pattern, and a bunch of other negative characteristics. Hey guess what, I didn't like the no flier thing, so guess who he's talking about? Me. I'm merely responding and defending my position against an open-ended attack (this thread). I think it's fair that there's some gruff in between my words when what I just said is actually the case. Read his post word for word and explain to me how it isn't if you disagree. So that's mostly why I won't bother reading the post.

Fresiki,

You make some good points and when I went back and read his original post I did see that he too was being a bit rude, and shouldn't have. 

I think he just wanted to make his views known and that's not a bad thing. I think people can express their views,  even passionately and with strong conviction and not be shoving it down others throats. 

Of course he hoped others might agree. Everybody hopes that. And even you have your strong views on things and feel the need to speak out. But does that mean you're shoving your ideas down my throat? Nope. So I think,  at least in this case,  his harsher words aside (though even some of those were true words), that you can relax and let go of the idea of him trying to shove ideas down your throat.  

But at least there's discussion. That's rarely a bad thing. ?

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21 hours ago, ForzaProiettile said:

The problem with flyers is as you rightly say it removes the challenge from the game in many areas. The most obvious one is terrain navigation. The devs have done a wonderful job crafting these maps we play on with their unique and varied terrain but with flyers its all for nought. Who needs to work out a path through a jungle filled with dangerous creatures when you just jump on a flyer and zip over it? It's really broken beyond all words.

Then there is the issues with dino usage as I pointed out in my original thread. Flyers have become so dominant at the expense of everything else that it's very rare to see players using many of the dinos in this game. There is probably no more 10-15 dinos at most that are actively used by veteran players. For instance how often do you see a veteran player scouting a map on a Gallimus even though that on paper should be the perfect dino for that? Pretty much never because Pteradons, Wyvers are just so much easier and risk free to use.

I'll humor this discussion for a bit then, if only to clear my name. Let's break this down point for point.

"it removes the challenge from the game in many areas"
Can you explain which areas you find challenging, that fliers allow you to easily overcome? Because when I think about challenges, and mind you I'm a PvE player, I think about stuff like the in-game tiered challenges. Ie. the caves, the bosses, the OSDs. What are some challenges that you find in the game that fliers undermine? The challenge of moving a lot of metal ore on a T-Rex or a Bronto or a Tuso, instead of an Argentavis? The challenge of swinging over to your friend on a Bloodstalker instead of flying on a Ptera to deliver some kibble he asked to borrow before you go back to doing what you were doing? In those examples I presented, does flying "ruin a challenge", or does it simply streamline an already tedious process? What are some examples of challenges you can think of, that fliers simplify? Because you go on to list a single one, which I will also respond to, then go on talking about something else. I would love exaplanations for what it is that flying does to lessen the impact of the challenge, too.

"The most obvious one is terrain navigation"
Are you seriously saying that using an Argentavis to go up a hill is easier than using a Bloodstalker or a Ferrox? Really? Like, is pushing the buttons to climb up the wall with a Ferrox, or the buttons to shoot webs with the Bloodstalker, more difficult than holding the button to fly forward while aiming with the mouse on an Argentavis? Is "easier" really the right word and concept, or is it merely just more buttonpresses to go up a hill with a Ferrox? I'm trying to understand what's the challenging part. Pressing a different key on a keyboard? I don't have a Ferrox yet, but how do you jump with it? Space? And how do you cling to a wall? LMB? So it's pressing Space and LMB one after the other in sequence for a few times. Is that more difficult than holding W whole aiming with a mouse? Think about it for a minute. None of this is challenging to me. One of them just requires more button presses. I hardly ever die out in the wild, I never go spelunking without gear. And my movement speed is 150%. I could just run around on foot and be alright. I can do that for two hours to demonstrate to you how skilled I am if you would like, just to prove that when I choose to fly it's just because it's quicker. When I can fly back and forth between OSDs on Extinction, I can do more OSDs per hour than if I were to run on a ground mount. That means I beat more challenges per hour if I can fly, but if I have to "challenge" myself to run the long way back and forth with a ground mount every time, I would effectively be facing less challenges per play session. I don't know if you've done OSDs and Element Veins on Extinction, but so try to go scout for those on a land mount. It's not that it's hard, it's that you would either almost never find one, and would still be running for more than two thirds of your playtime.

"Who needs to work out a path through a jungle filled with dangerous creatures when you can just fly over it.
Tell that to the Redwoods on the Island. Also, if you want to tame something in said jungle, you couldn't just fly over it. If you actually need to go in the jungle, you can. I don't get the challenge here either. You wear armor, you have your mount on "Attack my target" and if a Thyla or Raptor pegs you down, you survive and make it back to your mount or kill it with a shotgun, and now you have to farm wood and thatch to repair your armor. Challenge is doing the Tek Cave. Challenge is soloing the Dragon boss. When I farm to repair my armor from those things, I don't need more "challenges" that I know I'll overcome 200% but will have to farm more for repairs. I don't see a challenge, I see a chore, and no risk, so no fun.

"Then there is the issues with dino usage as I pointed out in my original thread. Flyers have become so dominant at the expense of everything else that it's very rare to see players using many of the dinos in this game. There is probably no more 10-15 dinos at most that are actively used by veteran players. For instance how often do you see a veteran player scouting a map on a Gallimus even though that on paper should be the perfect dino for that? Pretty much never because Pteradons, Wyvers are just so much easier and risk free to use."
Well, first of all, most of my dinos are rexes. I have about 60 breeding females. I would say about 20-30% of my total dino count are fliers. I use dinos that have uses that are beneficial to what I am trying to do. So with respects to scouting a map, there's something to be said about an overview. When I design my bases, I begin with getting an overview. It's part of the building process, it's where I get my inspiration to want to build something. This has nothing to do with challenge or no challenge, it has to do with how we process information. The same can be said for scouting, though. Seeing something from above reveals a lot more information about an area than traversing through it. I don't know why it's that way, but it is. Something about how our mind works.

You're on that social engineering tip again. "If people don't enjoy something, we will fool them into enjoying it by telling them a story about why they should". I would use more dinos if more dinos were usable, whatever "usable" means in this context. If I felt somehow drawn towards using them, I would, and I don't, so maybe that means we need to up and go force every player out there to accept something they don't like, or hey, maybe it means you don't need 200 useful dinos because no one could ever have any fun switching between that many, you would never get to fully know how any of them truly works, etc. etc. The reason why people don't do it, is it's not a thing people want to do. You're suggesting "somehow make game designs that force them because that rhymes with my utopian view of how the game climate should look". It's quite ballsy, to be honest.

None of this means that I don't get to see the game the devs made. I've been so much around on all of the maps that I've seen everything the devs made. Maybe there is like one rock formation in a forest somewhere I haven't actually studied and awed at, but I think I'm good. And I think they are too. The overseer fight is an example of content that is cool that most people haven't gotten to see. A real challenge. And you can't fly there.

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What I would say about flyers is that if you take away flyers you have to add in a place you can be safe in game that isn’t so high up that without flyers it takes about a million ladders or grapple hooks to get up and down, as the ground is just to dangerous (in the case of the bog ) there’s not really enough of it to create a big base (ocean) or the land is just inhospitable for early bases (arctic, lunar, volcano). I get that they replaced the flyers sort of with the blood stalker, but it’s now super hard to reach/find the blood stalkers as they live high up and to feed it and tame it you need to kill yourself by draining your own blood about 1000 times which is kind of boring. I get that WC was trying to get rid of the heavy reliance upon OP flyers, but add in something to replace it that’s maybe a bit more easy to get then a blood stalker, or a place besides high up that is safe in the “easy” zone.

this is just my take on stuff however, your all entitled to your opinion

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2 hours ago, Fresiki said:

I'll humor this discussion for a bit then, if only to clear my name. Let's break this down point for point.

"it removes the challenge from the game in many areas"
Can you explain which areas you find challenging, that fliers allow you to easily overcome? Because when I think about challenges, and mind you I'm a PvE player, I think about stuff like the in-game tiered challenges. Ie. the caves, the bosses, the OSDs. What are some challenges that you find in the game that fliers undermine? The challenge of moving a lot of metal ore on a T-Rex or a Bronto or a Tuso, instead of an Argentavis? The challenge of swinging over to your friend on a Bloodstalker instead of flying on a Ptera to deliver some kibble he asked to borrow before you go back to doing what you were doing? In those examples I presented, does flying "ruin a challenge", or does it simply streamline an already tedious process? What are some examples of challenges you can think of, that fliers simplify? Because you go on to list a single one, which I will also respond to, then go on talking about something else. I would love exaplanations for what it is that flying does to lessen the impact of the challenge, too.

"The most obvious one is terrain navigation"
Are you seriously saying that using an Argentavis to go up a hill is easier than using a Bloodstalker or a Ferrox? Really? Like, is pushing the buttons to climb up the wall with a Ferrox, or the buttons to shoot webs with the Bloodstalker, more difficult than holding the button to fly forward while aiming with the mouse on an Argentavis? Is "easier" really the right word and concept, or is it merely just more buttonpresses to go up a hill with a Ferrox? I'm trying to understand what's the challenging part. Pressing a different key on a keyboard? I don't have a Ferrox yet, but how do you jump with it? Space? And how do you cling to a wall? LMB? So it's pressing Space and LMB one after the other in sequence for a few times. Is that more difficult than holding W whole aiming with a mouse? Think about it for a minute. None of this is challenging to me. One of them just requires more button presses. I hardly ever die out in the wild, I never go spelunking without gear. And my movement speed is 150%. I could just run around on foot and be alright. I can do that for two hours to demonstrate to you how skilled I am if you would like, just to prove that when I choose to fly it's just because it's quicker. When I can fly back and forth between OSDs on Extinction, I can do more OSDs per hour than if I were to run on a ground mount. That means I beat more challenges per hour if I can fly, but if I have to "challenge" myself to run the long way back and forth with a ground mount every time, I would effectively be facing less challenges per play session. I don't know if you've done OSDs and Element Veins on Extinction, but so try to go scout for those on a land mount. It's not that it's hard, it's that you would either almost never find one, and would still be running for more than two thirds of your playtime.

"Who needs to work out a path through a jungle filled with dangerous creatures when you can just fly over it.
Tell that to the Redwoods on the Island. Also, if you want to tame something in said jungle, you couldn't just fly over it. If you actually need to go in the jungle, you can. I don't get the challenge here either. You wear armor, you have your mount on "Attack my target" and if a Thyla or Raptor pegs you down, you survive and make it back to your mount or kill it with a shotgun, and now you have to farm wood and thatch to repair your armor. Challenge is doing the Tek Cave. Challenge is soloing the Dragon boss. When I farm to repair my armor from those things, I don't need more "challenges" that I know I'll overcome 200% but will have to farm more for repairs. I don't see a challenge, I see a chore, and no risk, so no fun.

"Then there is the issues with dino usage as I pointed out in my original thread. Flyers have become so dominant at the expense of everything else that it's very rare to see players using many of the dinos in this game. There is probably no more 10-15 dinos at most that are actively used by veteran players. For instance how often do you see a veteran player scouting a map on a Gallimus even though that on paper should be the perfect dino for that? Pretty much never because Pteradons, Wyvers are just so much easier and risk free to use."
Well, first of all, most of my dinos are rexes. I have about 60 breeding females. I would say about 20-30% of my total dino count are fliers. I use dinos that have uses that are beneficial to what I am trying to do. So with respects to scouting a map, there's something to be said about an overview. When I design my bases, I begin with getting an overview. It's part of the building process, it's where I get my inspiration to want to build something. This has nothing to do with challenge or no challenge, it has to do with how we process information. The same can be said for scouting, though. Seeing something from above reveals a lot more information about an area than traversing through it. I don't know why it's that way, but it is. Something about how our mind works.

You're on that social engineering tip again. "If people don't enjoy something, we will fool them into enjoying it by telling them a story about why they should". I would use more dinos if more dinos were usable, whatever "usable" means in this context. If I felt somehow drawn towards using them, I would, and I don't, so maybe that means we need to up and go force every player out there to accept something they don't like, or hey, maybe it means you don't need 200 useful dinos because no one could ever have any fun switching between that many, you would never get to fully know how any of them truly works, etc. etc. The reason why people don't do it, is it's not a thing people want to do. You're suggesting "somehow make game designs that force them because that rhymes with my utopian view of how the game climate should look". It's quite ballsy, to be honest.

None of this means that I don't get to see the game the devs made. I've been so much around on all of the maps that I've seen everything the devs made. Maybe there is like one rock formation in a forest somewhere I haven't actually studied and awed at, but I think I'm good. And I think they are too. The overseer fight is an example of content that is cool that most people haven't gotten to see. A real challenge. And you can't fly there.

I believe that point 1 ("it removes the challenge from the game in many areas") and point 3 ("Who needs to work out a path through a jungle filled with dangerous creatures when you can just fly over it.") are one and the same. From my perspective, flying lets you completely ignore most of the x-creatures, some of which are a real threat to your tames. I'm thinking of x-allos and x-rexes here which can and will tear down boss rexes in a matter of seconds if not properly handled. Having to deal with such creatures is part of the challenge in getting magmasaur eggs.

Again a point I made in another thread about flyers, taming space whales (astrocetus). Right now, there is a few required steps that can't be skiped in order to acquire one. Deafeat the Moeder to unlock the tek skiff, craft said skiff and then tame the whale. With flyers enabled and with transfers turned on, one can simply bring a plat quetz and do the tame, thus rendering the whole process trivial.

I've not seen or tested the PvP capabilities of said whales but they seems like a mini version of the desert titan in terms of what they can do, minus the hp pool. I like that they require certain steps to be done as to limit their availability to players who actually worked for them.

"The most obvious one is terrain navigation"
Following the same idea, getting saids eggs on a flyer is trivial at best since you can safely and easily fly away from any threats. On the flip side, the same could be said about gliders/climbers like a rock drake, ferox, bloodstalker. However, each of those requires pin-point precision when choosing a landing spot at the risk of ending up in lava and thus losing the tame + your gear.

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3 minutes ago, wintericem107 said:

my question in all this is the no flier thing is cool now what happens in 3 weeks on the pve servers when everyone base is in the way and you still cant use 90 percent of the dinos because every path is blocked by players bases? 

Get a bloodsucker and swing your way through! ?

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there are options now for unofficial servers to set up the flight rules how they like.  If you are complaining about official, those servers are theirs.  They can set them up how they like.  If you don't like it make your own server or play on a cluster you like.  All of the arguments official players regularly regurgitate for not wanting to play unofficial servers apply to official servers as well.

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isn't this thread only point is official? cuss if I played unofficial I could make it so every dino was a Pokémon and there rainbow and sunshine for everyone. I thought this was a discussion about wildcard and officials, I get go play something/somewere else don't think it need to be repeated we all get it we can go play c.o.d or something. I was just trying to get ppl think about the long term on offiacal were the flier thing is out *for awhile* and maybe some one will have a aidea that the dev will see and be like that a good idea and they add a way to fix the long term problem on pve server with out flier mounts  

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I would say that fliers is a good thing and a bad thing. Fliers used be necessary because of the size of each of the Maps. They allowed you to quickly traverse the terrain without the large ground predators being able to reach you. Also with a flier it was possible to build bases high up without having to make grapples or ladders. You could get flyers relatively early on, allowing you to travel to other parts of the map to either gather resources or sometimes an artifact. They usually put obstacles up, however, when it came to getting the artifact for the fliers (such as on valguero the massive cave full of bugs, or the fire wyvern’s trench. Both had flying enemies that posed, if not substantial, for the most part decent threats the medium - low level fliers) but now due to the undersized landscape, you don’t really need flyers for travel. 
 

However, the only replacements for fliers (bloodstalker, space whale, Gasbags etc.) are very hard meaning that since their are no safe, lower places with starter materials (freezing in the arctic, bog is full of sarcos and carnos and raptors, volcano has almost no water and starter materials and is full of x-Dinos, ocean is decent except that unless you build a bunch of bridges or can tame an ocean mount your as mobile as a petrified snail, lunar...) and since you can’t get up high away from the predators that will absolutely munch you, there’s nothing to do except pray until you level up enough to build ladders and a bed. The problem with adding the flyers is that they would essentially make the game way too easy but without them it’s exceptionally hard.

this is just my take on the no flyer thing and your all entitled to your own opinion.

 

would respond to you fez but I’ve made my maximum number of posts per day.

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2 hours ago, Soccerant10 said:

I would say that fliers is a good thing and a bad thing. Fliers used be necessary because of the size of each of the Maps. They allowed you to quickly traverse the terrain without and of the large ground predators being able to reach you

Just a theoretical question: How would you feel about a map which would have more or less save parts of the map to travel on the ground ? for example some kind of railway system going through the map and connecting major biomes, where you could use tames like rollrats or direbears to travel fast on ground without the risk of predators

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On 2/29/2020 at 9:34 AM, Fes said:

Just a theoretical question: How would you feel about a map which would have more or less save parts of the map to travel on the ground ? for example some kind of railway system going through the map and connecting major biomes, where you could use tames like rollrats or direbears to travel fast on ground without the risk of predators

That would be cool. Probably wouldn’t want to use a railway system as that would seem not very like ark, even for weird new dlcs like genesis, but that would be a good compromise as you wouldn’t have to worry about it taking forever to travel but would still be at some risk to ground predators. However, in genesis,some biomes, let’s use the bog biome as an example, are pretty much impossible to travel. If you travel on a ground mount or by foot, you get swarmed by insects and large predators and if you use a blood stalker, you have to have a parachute because every few swings a wild blood stalker will grab you off your mount.

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