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No Flyers Is A Great Thing


ForzaProiettile

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For years large sections of the ARK community have wanted to see the dependence on flyers reduced or removed entirely from the game. It has been an issue that has turned many players off from the game and led to accusations that ARK is merely a flying dinosaur game rather then a varied survival game. These arguments are quite valid, flyers have proven to be extremely dominant leading to a stale meta that mostly consists of players using flyers for the majority of their tasks at the expense of all the rest.

Flyers impact every aspect of the game from the ease in which farming can be done (leading to an over abundance of resources and thus hyperinflation resulting in everything being worthless), to the speed at which a map/server can be scouted and to the ease that a map can be traversed rendering terrain and hostile NPC's irrelevant.

Flyers have also had a negative impact on PVP and combat in general resulting in a very stale flyer dominated meta which only allows room for a handful of dinos to be competitive. This is a great shame because one of the hallmarks of ARK has been its many and varied creatures most of which sadly are today largely unused and under utilized because of the total dominance of flyers. This effect even trickles down to where you choose to build your base and how you design it. Factors largely influenced by the current dominance of flyers.

The end result is a stale game that doesn't resemble anything like the trailers. Why put over 100 different creatures into the game if 90 are not used by veteran players because of the sheer dominance of one category of creature?

This is clearly a major balance issue and it appears that the developers have finally woken up to the reality that their game was hideously broken and have taken appropriate steps to try and rectify this. A flyer free expansion will ensure creativity and diverse strategies are able to flourish. It will also open up new gameplay opportunities for players. For instance whereas as previously pretty much all mining consisted of a Quetzal and Anklo combo clearing a mountain in a few minutes and then disappearing back to base, without flyers with this will now be challenging as a convoy of dinos will be required to haul the load back to base leaving it vulnerable to ambush and attack. This is a good thing.

I have noticed there are already a few whinge threads about the change from the usual suspects, those that don't like to try something new or be taken out of their comfort zone. They are for the most part casual players that got used to the easy mode and are unwilling to shift gears. The same folks that still whinge about the small balance changes made to flyers all those years ago...

Stay strong developers and don't give into these vocal minorities that hate a game that is fair and balanced.

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Sorry, but I won't bother reading the argument, however will respond quickly to the point of view based off of my own perception of the issue.

I trust my instincts. If I don't enjoy something, I don't enjoy it. It's not a matter of me understanding what the joyful part is. This idea you propose that taking away a feature I use frequently somehow makes things more enjoyable for me doesn't rhyme with how things feel, so in other words, what you're saying can't be right. It's not a matter of the right arguments, it's a matter of people being different and finding different things enjoyable. Easily put, some people like to be able to fly in games, and other people like to be restricted.

 

I would love to see your study showing how these opinions come from a vocal minority. See, I lied, because I did skim through your post. I also would like to know how you know me so well you know whether I like to try new things or not. I also wonder how you can make that assessment based on emotions related to this game. For all you know, I'm a skydiver when I don't play Ark. I also wonder how you know I'm casual. Also, your need to shift gears hardly makes you better than anyone. That's a personality type, of which there are many. Stop being offensive. You're a social engineer. You would gladly decide how people should live and what they should enjoy if somebody gave you the power. You don't believe in peoples freedom to choose. You clearly demonstrate it with your views. You don't believe in the system that brings you the freedom to be the person you're choosing to be, that's a funny paradox.

 

Stay fair devs, and use your existing tools for gathering feedback. I see there is already a setting to enable flying on unofficial. That's great. I play on an unmodded cluster so that's great, maybe our server admin will enable it after some time. The rest of Genesis is awesome to me.

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2 hours ago, Fresiki said:

Sorry, but I won't bother reading the argument, however will respond quickly to the point of view based off of my own perception of the issue.

I trust my instincts. If I don't enjoy something, I don't enjoy it. It's not a matter of me understanding what the joyful part is. This idea you propose that taking away a feature I use frequently somehow makes things more enjoyable for me doesn't rhyme with how things feel, so in other words, what you're saying can't be right. It's not a matter of the right arguments, it's a matter of people being different and finding different things enjoyable. Easily put, some people like to be able to fly in games, and other people like to be restricted.

 

I would love to see your study showing how these opinions come from a vocal minority. See, I lied, because I did skim through your post. I also would like to know how you know me so well you know whether I like to try new things or not. I also wonder how you can make that assessment based on emotions related to this game. For all you know, I'm a skydiver when I don't play Ark. I also wonder how you know I'm casual. Also, your need to shift gears hardly makes you better than anyone. That's a personality type, of which there are many. Stop being offensive. You're a social engineer. You would gladly decide how people should live and what they should enjoy if somebody gave you the power. You don't believe in peoples freedom to choose. You clearly demonstrate it with your views. You don't believe in the system that brings you the freedom to be the person you're choosing to be, that's a funny paradox.

 

Stay fair devs, and use your existing tools for gathering feedback. I see there is already a setting to enable flying on unofficial. That's great. I play on an unmodded cluster so that's great, maybe our server admin will enable it after some time. The rest of Genesis is awesome to me.

Fresiki,

While you certainly make some valid points concerning your preferences for flying creatures and the like, I think you really didn't treat Forza fairly. Why is that you feel so justified in voicing your view (which, by the way, may not be the majority view); in exercising your freedom, but want to crush Forza for voicing his (her) opinion? Forza has some strong beliefs about the nature of the game and you can tell that this is not coming from an uniformed, inexperienced person. Maybe Forza is right. Maybe not. Clearly you disagree. That's your right. But why attack Forza for simply doing what you are doing, namely stating your point of view? Instead of attacking Forza why not, if you feel the need, simply stick to disagreeing and citing the reasons then stopping? We don't have to agree but we can at least be civil.

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@Rakkasanhe attacked him because the OP called everyone who doesn't enjoy ''no flyer'' a casual or whiners who don't like ''hard games''. He attacked everyone and someone fired back and that really good. 

Just let everyone play how they want, gatekeeping fun for a portion of players and calling them bad/noobs/whiners for that won't help anyone. It's clear that people dislike the ''no flyers'' if you look at all the empty, dead, withering Aberration servers. People start there often and stop playing in a few weeks. Will you call them weak/weak minded for that? Why? Because they stopped playing something they didn't enjoy? We are playing a video game and are not in the army, we don't have to force ourselves to anything. :D  

While I love Aberration and think that this Genesis will be way more accessible as soon as it opens up and people bring Manas/Rock Drakes to it, I don't think that people that want flyers on the map are noobs/bad/or whiners. They just enjoy playing the game that way and a smart man once said: The only way you shouldn't be playing a game is if you aren't having fun while playing. :) 

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I personally like the whole no-flyers situation solely because I think it makes it more challenging. I myself do enjoy a solid challenge, but this is solely from my own personal perspective and in no way demeans that of those who disagree with the notion that flyers disabled on certain areas of Genesis is good thing.

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Personally I find including tamable flyers and yet disabled the use of flyers, how do I put this?, an interesting game design. Why include flyers at all ? Tbf I liked that Abberation was no flyers so I am kind of on the fence on this.

12 minutes ago, Fukushu said:

 

They just enjoy playing the game that way and a smart man once said: The only way you shouldn't be playing a game is if you aren't having fun while playing. :) 

Thats the beauty of Ark as a sandbox game (particularly for PvE) people can play how they want. 

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37 minutes ago, Fukushu said:

@Rakkasanhe attacked him because the OP called everyone who doesn't enjoy ''no flyer'' a casual or whiners who don't like ''hard games''. He attacked everyone and someone fired back and that really good. 

Just let everyone play how they want, gatekeeping fun for a portion of players and calling them bad/noobs/whiners for that won't help anyone. It's clear that people dislike the ''no flyers'' if you look at all the empty, dead, withering Aberration servers. People start there often and stop playing in a few weeks. Will you call them weak/weak minded for that? Why? Because they stopped playing something they didn't enjoy? We are playing a video game and are not in the army, we don't have to force ourselves to anything. :D  

While I love Aberration and think that this Genesis will be way more accessible as soon as it opens up and people bring Manas/Rock Drakes to it, I don't think that people that want flyers on the map are noobs/bad/or whiners. They just enjoy playing the game that way and a smart man once said: The only way you shouldn't be playing a game is if you aren't having fun while playing. :) 

Good point and well said. I said we need to be civil and that would include Forza. Thank you for pointing that out. :D

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27 minutes ago, CanisLupus said:

I personally like the whole no-flyers situation solely because I think it makes it more challenging. I myself do enjoy a solid challenge, but this is solely from my own personal perspective and in no way demeans that of those who disagree with the notion that flyers disabled on certain areas of Genesis is good thing.

There's a dog in the thread!! Lol. (Sorry. Cats and dogs. Lol.)

 

 

1238289-bigthumbnail.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Rakkasan said:

There's a dog in the thread!! Lol. (Sorry. Cats and dogs. Lol.)

 

 

1238289-bigthumbnail.jpg

Hahaha. XD Funny enough I actually prefer cats if forced to choose one to live with. They're just easier and require less maintenance. Though I have both a dog and a cat who're best friends (the dog in my profile pic actually being my dog).

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8 hours ago, CanisLupus said:

I personally like the whole no-flyers situation solely because I think it makes it more challenging. I myself do enjoy a solid challenge, but this is solely from my own personal perspective and in no way demeans that of those who disagree with the notion that flyers disabled on certain areas of Genesis is good thing.

The problem with flyers is as you rightly say it removes the challenge from the game in many areas. The most obvious one is terrain navigation. The devs have done a wonderful job crafting these maps we play on with their unique and varied terrain but with flyers its all for nought. Who needs to work out a path through a jungle filled with dangerous creatures when you just jump on a flyer and zip over it? It's really broken beyond all words.

Then there is the issues with dino usage as I pointed out in my original thread. Flyers have become so dominant at the expense of everything else that it's very rare to see players using many of the dinos in this game. There is probably no more 10-15 dinos at most that are actively used by veteran players. For instance how often do you see a veteran player scouting a map on a Gallimus even though that on paper should be the perfect dino for that? Pretty much never because Pteradons, Wyvers are just so much easier and risk free to use.

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14 hours ago, ForzaProiettile said:

For years large sections of the ARK community have wanted to see the dependence on flyers reduced or removed entirely from the game. It has been an issue that has turned many players off from the game and led to accusations that ARK is merely a flying dinosaur game rather then a varied survival game. These arguments are quite valid, flyers have proven to be extremely dominant leading to a stale meta that mostly consists of players using flyers for the majority of their tasks at the expense of all the rest.

Flyers impact every aspect of the game from the ease in which farming can be done (leading to an over abundance of resources and thus hyperinflation resulting in everything being worthless), to the speed at which a map/server can be scouted and to the ease that a map can be traversed rendering terrain and hostile NPC's irrelevant.

Flyers have also had a negative impact on PVP and combat in general resulting in a very stale flyer dominated meta which only allows room for a handful of dinos to be competitive. This is a great shame because one of the hallmarks of ARK has been its many and varied creatures most of which sadly are today largely unused and under utilized because of the total dominance of flyers. This effect even trickles down to where you choose to build your base and how you design it. Factors largely influenced by the current dominance of flyers.

The end result is a stale game that doesn't resemble anything like the trailers. Why put over 100 different creatures into the game if 90 are not used by veteran players because of the sheer dominance of one category of creature?

This is clearly a major balance issue and it appears that the developers have finally woken up to the reality that their game was hideously broken and have taken appropriate steps to try and rectify this. A flyer free expansion will ensure creativity and diverse strategies are able to flourish. It will also open up new gameplay opportunities for players. For instance whereas as previously pretty much all mining consisted of a Quetzal and Anklo combo clearing a mountain in a few minutes and then disappearing back to base, without flyers with this will now be challenging as a convoy of dinos will be required to haul the load back to base leaving it vulnerable to ambush and attack. This is a good thing.

I have noticed there are already a few whinge threads about the change from the usual suspects, those that don't like to try something new or be taken out of their comfort zone. They are for the most part casual players that got used to the easy mode and are unwilling to shift gears. The same folks that still whinge about the small balance changes made to flyers all those years ago...

Stay strong developers and don't give into these vocal minorities that hate a game that is fair and balanced.

You've made some strong and valid points but you're delusional about the "vocal minority"

https://i.imgur.com/5syNJt1.png

Genesis getting panned since released, this is the reality.

I am myself very mixed about flyers, I agree they dominate everything but different players want different things depending on their background and the time they can put into a game. ARK should give different options to different players and that's what it does with settings, unofficial servers, mods and so on...

If someday I finish ARK I might consider replaying it using the primitive mode (if they ever fix it) and/or a noflyer/balance mod. For example there's a mod called "primitive fair" that removes many saddle including flyers.

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15 hours ago, ForzaProiettile said:

For years large sections of the ARK community have wanted to see the dependence on flyers reduced or removed entirely from the game. It has been an issue that has turned many players off from the game and led to accusations that ARK is merely a flying dinosaur game rather then a varied survival game. These arguments are quite valid, flyers have proven to be extremely dominant leading to a stale meta that mostly consists of players using flyers for the majority of their tasks at the expense of all the rest.

Flyers impact every aspect of the game from the ease in which farming can be done (leading to an over abundance of resources and thus hyperinflation resulting in everything being worthless), to the speed at which a map/server can be scouted and to the ease that a map can be traversed rendering terrain and hostile NPC's irrelevant.

Flyers have also had a negative impact on PVP and combat in general resulting in a very stale flyer dominated meta which only allows room for a handful of dinos to be competitive. This is a great shame because one of the hallmarks of ARK has been its many and varied creatures most of which sadly are today largely unused and under utilized because of the total dominance of flyers. This effect even trickles down to where you choose to build your base and how you design it. Factors largely influenced by the current dominance of flyers.

The end result is a stale game that doesn't resemble anything like the trailers. Why put over 100 different creatures into the game if 90 are not used by veteran players because of the sheer dominance of one category of creature?

This is clearly a major balance issue and it appears that the developers have finally woken up to the reality that their game was hideously broken and have taken appropriate steps to try and rectify this. A flyer free expansion will ensure creativity and diverse strategies are able to flourish. It will also open up new gameplay opportunities for players. For instance whereas as previously pretty much all mining consisted of a Quetzal and Anklo combo clearing a mountain in a few minutes and then disappearing back to base, without flyers with this will now be challenging as a convoy of dinos will be required to haul the load back to base leaving it vulnerable to ambush and attack. This is a good thing.

I have noticed there are already a few whinge threads about the change from the usual suspects, those that don't like to try something new or be taken out of their comfort zone. They are for the most part casual players that got used to the easy mode and are unwilling to shift gears. The same folks that still whinge about the small balance changes made to flyers all those years ago...

Stay strong developers and don't give into these vocal minorities that hate a game that is fair and balanced.

 

2 hours ago, ForzaProiettile said:

The problem with flyers is as you rightly say it removes the challenge from the game in many areas. The most obvious one is terrain navigation. The devs have done a wonderful job crafting these maps we play on with their unique and varied terrain but with flyers its all for nought. Who needs to work out a path through a jungle filled with dangerous creatures when you just jump on a flyer and zip over it? It's really broken beyond all words.

Then there is the issues with dino usage as I pointed out in my original thread. Flyers have become so dominant at the expense of everything else that it's very rare to see players using many of the dinos in this game. There is probably no more 10-15 dinos at most that are actively used by veteran players. For instance how often do you see a veteran player scouting a map on a Gallimus even though that on paper should be the perfect dino for that? Pretty much never because Pteradons, Wyvers are just so much easier and risk free to use.

people use fliers as a way to make things easier. the majority of people who do use fliers for tasks like navigation, transport and other tasks most likely dont want to have to deal with that task. these are people who would rather spend time doing something else, and that is fine. you want a challenge, good for you, you do that, dont use fliers. i like to use fliers as it makes my tasks easier. i need to do another metal run, ok i will take my trusty argent and anky out to the volcanoe. i can then complete that task much quicker giving me time to do something i planned to do but could not do till i had done my metal runs. like upgrade the base to metal. i also have more time to do something like breeding which takes much time. time i cant waste on traversing land with my raptor. however i also like to play without fliers when i want a challenge. i play both ways. this has given me insight into both sides. yes using fliers removes tasks YOU would find entertaining. but what about those who dont want to have to spend twice as long on a metal run by ground than if you were to fly there. i can tell you are more of a challenges person, and that's great. but it does not mean your way is the right way. that brings me to my second point. using fliers is not broken. it gives the game a new perspective. it allows you to see thing you would normally never see. i think you will find a lot of people do use land mounts. as you stated, a galli would be a good travel mount. however a gali cant hold itself in a fight. the the 10-15 creatures you are reffering to would be: thla, rex, raptor, saber, wolf, bear, megatherium, deinonychus, rockdrake, reaper, giga, managarmer, equis and velanosaur. all these creatures can hold themselves in a fight. which is essnetial in ark as when traveling combat is a real risk. meaning a galli wont exactly be the best mount use when traveling ark. i rarely see veterans using galli's as they pose no purpose. along with a lot of other creatures. this is because they are out done. they way you are enforcing the idea of of no fliers is like imperialism. you are forcing others to admit and agree with you that fliers should not be allowed. like with many other creatures flier are preferred by some players, and disliked by others. personally i am questioning the idea of no fliers on genesis as i was excited to view the astounding landscape form above. also please answer me this. do you play on PvP or PvE. as this will further support my first claim.

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Now if only there was something to combat the "if its not a dominant carnivore [giga, rex] its trash" meta.

For as often as they give TLC to dinos like raptors, wolves, mammoths and rhinos, sloths, etc there's a whole lot of not using them going on because they're not rexes or gigas.

Do people forget just how hard the damn sloths hit in the wild *without* the bug killer buff let alone with it?

And yeah you can bola a wolf or a raptor, but that's the whole reason they're supposed to be used as pack animals, because knocking one doesn't stop the pack from eating your face off.

Hell carnos barely see any action and they're just as usable as rexes as well as the supposed rarity of even mobile spike walls (kents), guard dogs (hyenas), and even dimorphodons and vultures as hard hitting as those bastards are when mixed in a flock and a larger or more potent threat.

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As soon as the servers open up people will use rock drakes and manas (if those don't vanish on the map). Instead of forcing a meta on everyone, specific servers that allow specific things and disable others like the PVP servers without TEK/Extinction dinos and only basic dinos. 

There are already many different kind of servers but people don't want to leave behind their stuff to try to play on those. Instead they want everyone else to adjust to them which is a really weird mindset. If Wildcard did a vote on flyers/no flyers and flyers won, would you accept this? Probably not but like I said before everyone likes to play differently and we really shouldn't judge someone who enjoy to play a VIDEO GAME in another way. You are not a hardcore navy seals, you are a gaymer like everyone else here. :) 

Also it's very normal for dinos to become useless, it's called meta and every competitive game has it if you don't want flyers at all it could be a good thing to give that idea to Wildcard. The forum has their own section for ideas, where you can even see how many upvotes an idea has. Maybe they would open such a cluster if enough people upvote your thread but telling others that they are noobs and bad because they enjoy flyers is not the right way.

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14 hours ago, ForzaProiettile said:

The problem with flyers is as you rightly say it removes the challenge from the game in many areas. The most obvious one is terrain navigation. The devs have done a wonderful job crafting these maps we play on with their unique and varied terrain but with flyers its all for nought. Who needs to work out a path through a jungle filled with dangerous creatures when you just jump on a flyer and zip over it? It's really broken beyond all words.

Then there is the issues with dino usage as I pointed out in my original thread. Flyers have become so dominant at the expense of everything else that it's very rare to see players using many of the dinos in this game. There is probably no more 10-15 dinos at most that are actively used by veteran players. For instance how often do you see a veteran player scouting a map on a Gallimus even though that on paper should be the perfect dino for that? Pretty much never because Pteradons, Wyvers are just so much easier and risk free to use.

Definitely. By all means I do enjoy my fliers relatively often but at the same time I won't complain either having to foot it all the same. Whenever I would check out new maps it was always by foot. While Genesis is definitely a solid challenge, especially with those crazy strong X-Creatures running about, it really appeals to me that I can't just grab a flyer, hop on and avoid all and any danger. Genesis forces me to actually be cautious about what I do, what dinos I pick fights with, etc. for once and I personally very much appreciate that. I can absolutely see where people come from in disliking the disabling of flyers, but INI options are available for unofficial servers for that exact thing so I do find any more aggressive complaints or attacks on WC for that to be kind of unwarranted as if they wanted flyers on Genesis, they have the option to go to an unofficial server and if they absolutely must have it be vanilla, then they can easily find a server that runs a vanilla or near vanilla experience too.

Genesis I think is one of the best maps WC has made by far. I love it quite a bit and its been fun yet scary (in a good way) having to force myself to take it back a step and not just expect myself to progress from 0 to 100 the moment I get a flyer.

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Flying is needed in areas such as the bog, sorry but when you get yanked off your Drake or whatever you're using and dont have enough blood to tame the bloostalker your dino ends up who knows where in a spot you cannot reach. Now lets take into consideration what people go through to get their tek gear just to have its function taken away on an entire map. Sorry its not well thought out, at least on Aberration you could use your tek gear and there is pathways up to almost everywhere, not so much in the bog. I've already lost a mana, ans a couple drakes due to being yanked off of them, they're still around somewhere but with no way to search effectively (no tek pack) GL finding them and making the 1,000,000 grapples you're going to need.

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THIS is one very interesting conversation and has me thinking more about such things than usual. So here's my 2 cents, bullet point style, for what it's worth (about 2 cents, lol):

 

  • No matter WHAT views are held, we must all try to be civil and avoid unnecessarily offending others.
  • We must ALL try not to be overly sensitive to every little perceived slight.
  • Games like this (really, ALL games) always force things on us because THEY build the world THEY want to (wherever they may get their input on what to build). So the very fact that anyone is willing to play a certain map/biome/dlc, etc. is proof that person is ok with having some things forced on them. So, if WC has built into Genesis that no flyers are allowed (ahem. Skiff, Space Whales, etc.), then, YES, they ARE forcing that on you. Just like they're forcing the requirement of teleporting between biomes (I don't much care for that.), difficult taming for certain creatures, disabling certain aspects of Tek armor, etc. So let's not all go running off and making claims of Imperialism because anyone has forced an aspect of the game and someone else appreciates that aspect.
  • All that said, there is always a right for people to express their displeasure with things and to request those things be changed. Which brings me full circle to...
  • No matter WHAT views are held, we must all try to be civil and avoid unnecessarily offending others.

 

 

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