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Manas Nerfed Hard With New Update

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1 hour ago, ello788 said:

nerfing it on singleplayer/unofficial why should player created servers/singleplayer where we decide what we can do be affected by an nerf intended for official pvp.

I've had this same question since the flier nerf. I've yet to see a logical answer, maybe they have one, and I havent seen it yet.

Is it too much work for them to code two different sets of creature behaviors? Or impossible perhaps? I have no idea.

There was a livestream once they said they want us to play in our own way, but how can we when they hardcode stuff like this? Confuses the heck out of me why PvE has to be hit by this change too.

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WC has made a poor choice here IMO, too often the nerfs have been heavy handed and poorly targeted.  The nerfs they've made to Managarmr since release effectively destroy the mechanics that defined the creature,  and yet they keep hitting it again and again because they apparently aren't actually preventing what they want to prevent. It honestly seems like they don't even know what they want the Managarmr to be, except perhaps not used. The range nerf was very excessive, destroying the basic attack mechanic of the creature, a single jump into the air, a core part of it's combat design, put it out of range to even hit it's target. Wild manas look like spastic morons, jumping in and out doing almost nothing with their melee till they die or bug out, if they win a fight it's often because the target was a wild that got distracted by something else when the mana jumped out. With how heavy the damage falloff was - for it to do any real damage at all at a sane range, the point blank damage was rather OP. The range nerf meant that a creature charging you, because that's exactly what the limited npc programming in the game will do, could often get in range and hit you before you could freeze, good luck with that breath then, and the mana's signature movement abilities would instantly put you out of range to even fight. If you want the breath to be used at range, don't nerf it into uselessness at 12ft. If you want it used in melee, it shouldn't be continuously interrupted by damage!! Combat hopscotch anyone? That's fun for both parties.

So what's the result of all this? The only real option they left the mana riders for dealing damage, jump in close and burst, jump away and start again if you get hit. I haven't gotten a good look at the damage change yet, but to me the biggest mistake they made there was way the range scaling was implemented.  Just keep it simple, something like full damage at point blank to mid range, scaling down from there to perhaps 25% damage at max range, adjust base damage to a balanced level. Going from max damage at melee range to 0 damage at max range was a mistake, and made balancing the damage a problem due to the massive variation across ranges, can't make it do reasonable damage at a sane range without making it OP point blank.  The freeze effect on the other hand should fall off a good bit, the closer you are the faster the target is frozen, very slow at long range, but fairly fast up close. Further reduce freeze speed against players and tames if needed.  Mild damage at long range, good reliable damage up mid to close range, no sniper damage, no easy freeze from silly range, no massive bursts at point blank, no stream of 0 damage markers from just outside you enemies hit box 😔.

The current movement nerf is no different. If people are jumping continuously too much, up the stamina cost scaling you already have in place. If three dashes burns all their stamina, they won't dash 3 times - or better yet, diminishing returns on subsequent dashes, after the first dash or two each gets progressively slower and shorter, and don't let the speed stat boost the dash. There are times when multiple jumps are simply required for awkward bits of terrain, heck, with how twitchy they are sometime it takes me 6 strafes and 2 jumps just to park the blasted thing how I want it if land space is limited, thanks to it's poor land turning radius.  If anything improve the land turning radius, If you want us to walk them, then make it less painful to do so, they also handle rocks and terrain very poorly. Have you tried moving them through an even moderately forested area, or rough terrain with stones on the ground? They bug out, start floating, or get stuck frequently, and turn like a bus.

On Extinction one of my bases is on a tower in the city, where it was clearly intended as a possible building location, and not even near the top. This change makes it nearly inaccessible to my Managarmr. Well done. Thank you very much. I now have exactly one option for an effective travel and light transport mount there, nerfing that one next?  Maybe I'll be able to build a bridge now, did that fix actually work? Another well tested addition that there was.

 

It's one thing to tune a mount's power, and completely another beast when you start messing with things so integral to it's base play-ability, I feel player anger is justified in this case.

PS: Heavy restrictions on players and tames that aren't placed on wilds will always feel unfair to your players, as do changes that render huge amounts of time and effort in breeding useless.

TLDR: I think this and many of the other Managarmr nerfs have been very poorly implemented even in the cases where changes have been truly necessary, and often seem completely untested.

Edited by Drahkon
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18 minutes ago, Kaoen said:

WC has made a poor choice here IMO, too often the nerfs have been heavy handed and poorly targeted.  The nerfs they've made to Managarmr since release effectively destroy the mechanics that defined the creature,  and yet they keep hitting it again and again because they apparently aren't actually preventing what they want to prevent. It honestly seems like they don't even know what they want the Managarmr to be, except perhaps not used. The range nerf was very excessive, destroying the basic attack mechanic of the creature, a single jump into the air, a core part of it's combat design, put it out of range to even hit it's target. Wild manas look like spastic morons, jumping in and out doing almost nothing with their melee till they die or bug out, if they win a fight it's often because the target was a wild that got distracted by something else when the mana jumped out. With how heavy the damage falloff was - for it to do any real damage at all at a sane range, the point blank damage was rather OP. The range nerf meant that a creature charging you, because that's exactly what the limited npc programming in the game will do, could often get in range and hit you before you could freeze, good luck with that breath then, and the mana's signature movement abilities would instantly put you out of range to even fight. If you want the breath to be used at range, don't nerf it into uselessness at 12ft. If you want it used in melee, it shouldn't be continuously interrupted by damage!! Combat hopscotch anyone? That's fun for both parties.

So what's the result of all this? The only real option they left the mana riders for dealing damage, jump in close and burst, jump away and start again if you get hit. I haven't gotten a good look at the damage change yet, but to me the biggest mistake they made there was way the range scaling was implemented.  Just keep it simple, something like full damage at point blank to mid range, scaling down from there to perhaps 25% damage at max range, adjust base damage to a balanced level. Going from max damage at melee range to 0 damage at max range was a mistake, and made balancing the damage a problem due to the massive variation across ranges, can't make it do reasonable damage at a sane range without making it OP point blank.  The freeze effect on the other hand should fall off a good bit, the closer you are the faster the target is frozen, very slow at long range, but fairly fast up close. Further reduce freeze speed against players and tames if needed.  Mild damage at long range, good reliable damage up mid to close range, no sniper damage, no easy freeze from silly range, no massive bursts at point blank, no stream of 0 damage markers from just outside you enemies hit box 😔.

The current movement nerf is no different. If people are jumping continuously too much, up the stamina cost scaling you already have in place. If three jumps burns all their stamina, they won't jump 3 times - or better yet, diminishing returns on subsequent jumps, after the first jump or two each gets progressively slower and shorter, and don't let the speed boost the jump. PS: Heavy restrictions on players and tames that aren't placed on wilds will always feel unfair to your players. There are times when multiple jumps are simply required for awkward bits of terrain, heck, with how twitchy they are sometime it takes me 6 strafes and 2 jumps just to park the blasted thing how I want it if land space is limited, thanks to it's poor land turning radius.  If anything improve the land turning radius, If you want us to walk them, then make it less painful to do so, they also handle rocks and terrain very poorly. Have you tried moving them through an even moderately forested area, or rough terrain with stones on the ground? They bug out, start floating, or get stuck frequently, and turn like a bus.

On Extinction one of my bases is on a tower in the city, where it was clearly intended as a possible building location, not even near the top. This change makes it nearly inaccessible to my Managarmr. Well done. Thank you very much. I now have exactly one option for an effective travel and light transport mount there, nerfing that one next? 

 

It's one thing to tune a mount's power, and completely another beast when you start messing with things so integral to it's base play-ability, I feel player anger is justified in this case.

 

TLDR: I think this and many of the other Managarmr nerfs have been poorly implemented even in the cases where changes have been truly necessary.

Tbh the last patches for the mana defo seemed to bring it into line and made it less OP,it was crazy powerful ,and its dmg output and freezing instantly in pvp made it a god tame,even wild tamed mana could kill fast and be gone in seconds.It's not ment to be a tame to do everything and myself and others understand that,but saying that,nerfing it into the ground and making it just another dino to put in the cryo fridge is not helping the matter what so ever. I love balance and i can defo get behind the previous patches to them,this patch however just makes it plain useless on so many levels its insane.

I have 6.2k hours in this game and really nothing compaired to some people in pve or pvp,i was around when the flyer nerf hit,and sure,i could deal with that,but there must be some other way WC can make a change to mana's that does not impact them so much in pve when so many players use them for travel,trading,and general mobility in pve,a sad day indeed.

Edited by PandaOP

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I say, at least give us another extra dash or two. 3 Dashes are nothing compared to the 10-15 dashes you are able to do with high stamina. Upvote or keep asking for at least an additional 1-2 dashes so the devs can see that we want at least slightly better mobility than just 1 dash. Only 1 dash seems super retarded in my point of view. 

Maybe give us the ability of 3-4 dashes, reduce the freeze time on the mana, and have 25%  less ice damage than originally before the nerf. Now this will effect mostly pvp and not people like us that use it as a travel mount. 

Edited by Wiicked

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I literally never post on forums yet have to comment on just how disappointing this is for everyone on PvE that uses these as main travel. They have been rendered literally useless now, especially on the very map they were CREATED for. I can't even hop on cliffs or levels in the city on Extinction without a huge struggle, between the lag, render issues, and now this stupid change with the jumps and dash. They were literally made for the purpose of jumping onto these elevated platforms, and you have just taken that feature away.

 I have looked forward to my Christmas break to breed up some awesome Manas for the past 3 months, as they really have been one of my favorite additions to this game. Though I can't speak for everyone, I've really found traveling and exploring these maps far more interesting and fun in general, and I find myself rarely using teles even. I LOVED taking the time to just have fun and dash around like a mad woman. And yet, you guys have ruined your own creation within a single day, without having the player's best interest in mind at all. Breeders have now wasted hundreds of hours building these lines of Manas, now to have them become completely unusable. It's ridiculous, considering the time we spend on these things and how quickly you guys make game-changing alterations that feel like a giant "F you" to all of us.

 

I understand PvP needs balancing, but PvE is NOT the same and please stop treating it the same. Figure it out so it doesn't hurt your PvE player base, and STOP punishing the players that still continue to support you despite the poop that is constantly being pulled that affects us. I've tolerated a lot of this crap so far as have many here, but this is where I draw the line. If you're going to essentially make a specific map-based dino useless, then what makes me think you won't nerf every dino on Genesis? I have no motive to buy the DLC knowing you guys could just render them useless too, so there's literally no point in throwing my money at that. After what has happened to Velos and Manas, which were a huge part of why I even bought Extinction, I have little faith that this will only be repeated with Genesis.

 

Please  do better and actually listen to what we're saying. You guys really messed up with this one, so I truly hope you correct this. 

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I'm also mostly a PVE player but the latest mana showed how broken the animal is. 

13k hp, 3k+ stam and 1067 base melee are ridiculous, some even said that those stats are cheated because the latest mana just 2 months ago had 80 points in melee and this one has 160 points.

The dinos mechanics were broken to begin with, extremely unbalanced. I also use the mana but whoever says that they are only a travel mount is lying to themselves, you can clear the whole wyvern area on ragnarok after stealing an egg without a single problem, 10+ wyverns? Np, just let me quickly kill them.

The mana was broken beyond believe in the beginning, you could kill the titans on ext with 1-3 mana riders in mere minutes, the titans on older maps died in less than 2-3 minutes and you killed a giga with a wild tamed mana (600+ melee leveled) in under 1 minute. People nuked down the alpha dragon on Island in minutes with some mana riders it was unbalanced garbage and the mana was used for everything. This was only the PVE side of things, PVP was way, way worse for everyone involved. (insta kill dash)

Even with that crazy unbalance, people still cried out loud after the very needed first nerf if Wildcard listened to the upset people at that moment we would now have 1067 base melee manas who would kill the alpha dragon on island with 1 or 2 players.

They are nerfing the mobility of the mana and maybe it will be good maybe not but saying the dino will now be useless is straight up a lie, the dmg output is crazy, the runspeed is crazy and just because we won't be able to dash over half of Ragnarok in mere seconds causing the servers to melt, won't make it useless because the mechanics were broken to begin with.

Let's just wait and see how the nerf works and if it's way overboard, it can always be changed.

Edited by Fukushu

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I play SP and I postponed Managarmr as the last Extinction tame as some sort of reward. During the time this creature was plenty of times nerfed but it did not hurt me much - I did not know what was lost. But several days ago I finally got to conclusion it is the time: Winter Wonderland 4 was near and I would need help with picking RaptorClaus presents. So I tamed 2 Manas and I have enjoyed hours of leveling them and just wandering over the map. Finally after 25 minutes of fight with hit and run tactic I killed low level Corrupted Giga which is a great achievement for me. And now before I have a chance to test how Managarmr stands against Corrupted Wyvern another nerf occures... damn! 

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I also wanted to leave a review, but for a long time I did not know what to write, because for me this creature is already dead enough in pve. Had a breed of several of them, different colors ... they look beautiful, and are unique in use. At first, even I, playing on the pve server, thought that they were too op, and their nerf naturally followed. after the fourth, it seems that the nerf, I’m a little disappointed, but I still agree, they became more balanced with a reduced stamina, reduced damage and actions depending on the range and the number of used. but even after that there was another one more, and another ... I just don’t remember how many times it was cut, but after that I tried to do something on my "clean" mana... I realized that they are not just useless they are dead at the core of the mechanics of their use (for pve, because pvp players have a separate understanding of their use).

they need a change, add some details of their actions, such as the ability to hang in mid air consuming stamina, reduce the speed of dashing ... maybe even make them controlled in some degree, add a normal jump on 2-3 walls in height and then when you press again it do rocket jump + hold for maximum jump height on stamina use. And of course counters, fire as a frequent example here + you can add a shield to block their breathing attack, for example, depending on the type and grade of the shield, reducing both damage to the player and freezing, you can even add different types of ammunition like incendiary cartridges for pistols / rifles (difficult to create, but effective in use).  Another measure - bleeding (new cartridges / arrows). Both, bleeding and fire can cause panic (like yuty) and, as a result, uncontrollability(on mana).

And in the end - I don’t have any mana right now, and I don’t want to deal with them, because it’s a waste of time, so if the nerf will be set, I won’t lose anything, I’ll just continue to remember, when they were interesting creatures but now just meat. But the matter is not only in them, because when I think about it, then where is the guarantee that in the future there will not appear the same hypothetical managarmr that will have interesting mechanics but will be killed by such attempts of balance and nerfs ... and this is really sad

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Revert Managarmr Jumps

Hey, 

Everyone who is reading this. Recently there has been ANOTHER update and it has been stressing me out since when I figured it out that managarmrs can now only jump 3 times strafe 6 times and dash ONCE!!!! I live on a high place accessible with managarmrs and flyers only (used to be with managarmrs). I can't jump to my base normally.
Who's in for a revert for the mana nerf? I am because I am sick about Wildcard nerfing unneccessary dinos instead of fixing actual bugs. Make up your mind wildcard.

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12-19-19 RIP Managarmr

Well that’s it for our furry friend.  It was a good year of being useful, but now that is over. It’s on to the next stage of life for the Mana; glorified base decoration.

 

Sleep well friend; may Wildcard hurt you no more.

 

 

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20 hours ago, PertySlick said:

That and the fact that there will always be a "meta" for people to complain about.  And if they keep nerfing in response the game will be reduced to bunch of tames that all look different but are functionally near similar.  They should instead rely on the checks and balances system where everything has a counter(s) of some kind.  And then considering that people were drawn to buy DLC by what these tames could do and now that functionality is being whittled away after money has been paid.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, counters to the mana our very few. What dino can counter a mana? We can't stun the rider at all now and it was tricky to line up with the movement of them. Insane saddles on most manas make it pointless to shot sometimes. Counters and more base defence items would be so welcome to this game. The dragon was op when it came out but it had limitation, a mana is God in ark as it has no weakness. A breed mana with imprint and ascendant saddle is far far to strong nothing comes close guys nothing at all. Pick battles in the sky was at 1 point an important part of PVP, now you sit on a mana and buzz about the place. I'm not saying picking doesn't still have a place but it's not what it use to be.

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19 minutes ago, GustavoWilkinson said:

BUG managarm ?

was managarm nerfed or is it bugged? 

 

I can not jump several times with mana he is bound even jet forward that he can only give 1

Managarmr movement was nerfed in the patch that dropped yesterday.

---Managarmr limited to 3 jumps, 6 strafes, and 1 dash before it has to land.---

Taken from most recent patch notes.

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2 hours ago, BertNoobians said:

3b10d3db29d3fd310f2e32a371d8b2da.gifthe mana is actually broken now in pvp, faaar to strong now

https://gyazo.com/3b10d3db29d3fd310f2e32a371d8b2da

You are comparing a bred mana vs low level wild tames in that gif.  Might as well say a 298 longneck is too overpowered too against those dinos.

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2 minutes ago, TheNom said:

You are comparing a bred mana vs low level wild tames in that gif.  Might as well say a 298 longneck is too overpowered too against those dinos.

Naw managarmrs are currently broken with the patch, Wildcard messed up the damage calculation (instead of nerfing damage they made them do thousands of damage with their dive attack + bypass armor). This basically effects the official gamemodes as most people have these type of manas (or better).

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42 minutes ago, TheNom said:

You are comparing a bred mana vs low level wild tames in that gif.  Might as well say a 298 longneck is too overpowered too against those dinos.

can you explain what you see on this one to ?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/650913538558263297/657424763530117121/Sick_mana_dive_bro.mp4

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