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Building Tiers Outdated?


ForzaProiettile

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This is a topic I've pondered for a while but it seems to me that although their are 5 building tiers in the game (thatch, wood, stone, metal and Tek) there is only really 2 tiers in the game that players actively use on a regular basis (metal and Tek) and possibly a third tier very early on in their ARK life (stone). Wood used to be popular back in the day before stone was a thing and thatch has always been extremely pointless for making a base out of but has some minor use as a kind of blueprint material for laying out base foundations.

All of this makes me think that perhaps there is something fundamentally flawed with the in-game economy. At present there is no reason to ever use wood or thatch for a base and rarely except very early on is there a reason to use stone. Metal was once hard to obtain but now can be obtained in abundance even with just hand farming let alone an Anklo which can mass produce the stuff especially when paired with a Quetzal. I fondly remember when a full metal base was a feat in itself, something that many weeks of intensive labor and toil but now just about every base is either metal or Tek, in facts its very rare to find wood or even stone bases.

Since the early days of ARK the farming rates have steadily increased, as have the level of dinos which in turn means players can have better farming machinery then ever before. While this has the effect of allowing players to farm easier, it also has the negative consequences of creating oversupply of resources. In the early days of ARK around 2015 and 2016 players actively traded goods on PVP servers among each other because resources were so much harder to obtain, that it made sense to sell your excess stuff to buy what you were short of. Today though its extremely rare to see trading going on, there just isn't a valid reason to do so except for maybe blueprints or eggs.

In my opinion the building tiers need to be looked at once more by the devs. I think either a large cost increase has to happen to make lower tiers viable again and or a general decrease in the resource gathering rate. 

 

 

 

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I agree, if you are an experienced player, you can reach tek tier from starting at zero in like 2-3 weeks if u grind every day...

Farming metal on Abe is suuuper easy, Most of the boss fights are easy with just a simple boss rex army (easy to get boss rex fert eggs for poly)

1 hour ago, ForzaProiettile said:

All of this makes me think that perhaps there is something fundamentally flawed with the in-game economy

Yes, ecomony is kind of screwed right now, cause you can get boss lvl dinos for super cheap.

I don't think making highier tier structures more expensive to craft make the lower tiers more relevant, cause there is a point in having metal or tek tiers instead of thatch/wood (mostly cause of decay timer). If for example you lose your char, you will get help in 2-3 weeks, and at that point you will lose thatch/wood/stone bases, if you lucky you will get help in 15days and your metal base is still there, but if you got tek base, you will be all right.  :)

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The game has advanced. 

The dino lines and ease to get them has advanced which means even a novice can reach tek tier quickly. The weaponary and the items used to assault have advanced. 

Attackers have a distinct advantage which means building back up has to be easier or else the player base will dwindle. Getting C4 was always quicker than getting good enough defenses to repel a determined attacker. 

Thatch and wood should be for aesthetics and role playing since taming a dino that can destroy those tiers is super quick. Stone is a very temporary stop since 1 C4 can level half your base. 

I don't think there is anyway to go backwards without a wipe which is a 50/50 split for pvp

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9 minutes ago, tbfrnritunbv6 said:

My SP base is made of Stone, because that's more than good enough for SP. I started out with thatch and wood - mainly to have a place to drop stuff, and switched to stone, because it's better looking and a bit more resistant to wild dinos. There's no real use for building a metal or tek base in the SP game.

We are obviously discussing multiplayer here. You could just make a thatch foundation in SP and shove an industrial forge on it and nothing would happen..

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6 minutes ago, Oldster said:

Another method of making early tiers relevant again would be to slow down the wildly out of scale experience ladder.

But that is anathema to Modern games. The kids simply won't play it.

Yes well in the early days of ARK before all the rates were increased and before alphas it took quite some effort to get anywhere near the top player level. 

Personally I would like to see a be reduction in gather rates and XP along with some other changes for a true classic ARK mode. I know a lot of folks like everything quick and easy but to me it simplifies the game too much and basically creates problems such as we have atm with dinos becoming rapidly outclassed and underused. Who uses Carnos or Sabers apart from noobs? Everyone goes straight for Rex or even Giga.

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Decreasing the rates would just increase the grind which is IMO not really a solution. The game has been out for years and you can't really fix the old maps but Wildcard could make some changes on new maps. Environmental difficulties to force people to build certain ways in different areas -> Firestorms, lightning storms, heat, cold but to a degree that would force you not to just build everything out of metal or simply introduce more building options like some of the sponsored mods have.

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21 minutes ago, Fukushu said:

Decreasing the rates would just increase the grind which is IMO not really a solution. The game has been out for years and you can't really fix the old maps but Wildcard could make some changes on new maps. Environmental difficulties to force people to build certain ways in different areas -> Firestorms, lightning storms, heat, cold but to a degree that would force you not to just build everything out of metal or simply introduce more building options like some of the sponsored mods have.

The problem with environment difficulty as Scorched Earth showed is that smart players will simply run the numbers and come to the conclusion: why should I play on a map where half the day I have to stand around doing nothing when I play on another map without all this weather crap and farm 24x7?

As a result maps that have it will end up just like SE, mostly dead and only used occasionally to obtain specific things.

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Jesus the OP is annoying.  MOST ARK PLAYERS ARE ON PvE.  Stop talking about the game like it's purely PvP.  When someone mentioned to you that stone is fine for them you said "obviously we're talking about multiplayer" but PvE has way more players than PvP and stone is the most commonly used building material on PvE servers.
GO PLAY RUST if you want to talk about the PvP meta like it's the main part of the game.

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@ForzaProiettile true but SE is a really poopty map to be fair haha, there is no real reason to play SE. The map lags with nearly no players on them, all Dinos are low lvl for whatever reason, wyvern nests are often buggy and very low lvl, way too much desert which could have been something ''better'', the dungeons are nothing special, only 1 boss who often bugs around the boss arena like every Manticore boss does and many other problems. 

Like you said the weather effects on SE are just annoying like the earthquake on Abe get annoying pretty fast. The map has to offer something which would make the ''annoying'' weather effects or environmental hazards worth it, like farming red gems/rock drakes/reapers in Abe.

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Some really good points here. Let's not forget either that most people raid for server control or entertainment these days. Seeing certain materials increase in price might get more players raiding for actual loot again. 

1 hour ago, Spiral3 said:

Jesus the OP is annoying.  MOST ARK PLAYERS ARE ON PvE.  Stop talking about the game like it's purely PvP.  When someone mentioned to you that stone is fine for them you said "obviously we're talking about multiplayer" but PvE has way more players than PvP and stone is the most commonly used building material on PvE servers.
GO PLAY RUST if you want to talk about the PvP meta like it's the main part of the game.

For all the talk about how PvE game play gets ruined by the PvP meta, you sure take a hypocritical stance when it's the other way around.                                                 Edit: Also I think slowing down the game progression and making quality of life improvements on early and mid game would benefit both types of players. 

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1 hour ago, Spiral3 said:

Jesus the OP is annoying.  MOST ARK PLAYERS ARE ON PvE.  Stop talking about the game like it's purely PvP.  When someone mentioned to you that stone is fine for them you said "obviously we're talking about multiplayer" but PvE has way more players than PvP and stone is the most commonly used building material on PvE servers.
GO PLAY RUST if you want to talk about the PvP meta like it's the main part of the game.

Do you have a source for these player statistics you have pulled out of your hat?

This thread wasn't about either PVP or PVE and I don't know why are trying to make it about that. Outdated and irrelevant building tiers is a balance issue that effect both game modes. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, ForzaProiettile said:

This is a topic I've pondered for a while but it seems to me that although their are 5 building tiers in the game (thatch, wood, stone, metal and Tek) there is only really 2 tiers in the game that players actively use on a regular basis (metal and Tek) and possibly a third tier very early on in their ARK life (stone). Wood used to be popular back in the day before stone was a thing and thatch has always been extremely pointless for making a base out of but has some minor use as a kind of blueprint material for laying out base foundations.

I know this thread is about multiplayer but I play SP and pretty much have to agree with you except for the stone tier. 

As stated

3 hours ago, Spiral3 said:

stone is the most commonly used building material on PvE servers.

In SP and PVE stone is really all you need, thatch and wood are purely decorative and only used for the aesthetic they give. In SP you can spawn in and do a note run and be able to craft stone before you have decided where to build, same as multiplayer if the notes aren't blocked, and if you do want wood or thatch structures you can get them from the drops, except extinction.

In short stone isn't necessarily just for very early on except for PVP where all you need is metal and tek.

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9 hours ago, Fukushu said:

Decreasing the rates would just increase the grind which is IMO not really a solution. The game has been out for years and you can't really fix the old maps but Wildcard could make some changes on new maps. Environmental difficulties to force people to build certain ways in different areas -> Firestorms, lightning storms, heat, cold but to a degree that would force you not to just build everything out of metal or simply introduce more building options like some of the sponsored mods have.

This is a great method to appease the masses. However our point is that the more RPG type of gamer doesn't need this additional development. The reduced rates are enough. Actually needing to use for example an Iguanodon for thatch or as an early Mount is enough for us. Even though we've done it before.

And the overall problem is that instead of implementing Your solution, which would please both crowds, they've simply removed our gameplay to make the game more palatable to younger* gamers. WoW did the exact same thing, and so did 90% of MMOs.

*younger meaning lower tolerance for investment, it is purely speculation on my part that this correlates to age.

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I'm a newish player so my opinion obviously is weighed with a grain of salt here, but my biggest gripe with building tiers, and from what I've seen watching videos to get an idea of what to expect on officials...most tiers are just entirely too easy to break into.  Like from a survival gaming mindset you understand that thatch is mostly supposed to just offer you protection from the elements but the survival aspects in regards to player versus environment in the literal sense(IE weather and readily available resources) in nearly all multiplayer survival games just can't be that demanding on players.  It isn't  The Long Dark and it shouldn't be.  So all that's left is actual damage protection and realistically only Tek Tier offers that with any consistency.

Players shouldn't run up on a metal base and get excited, exclaiming how they only need 5-6 C4 to raid it.  And there's also a reason wild bears, elk, moose, and even larger animals in other parts of the world don't just go toppling over every log cabin and wooden shack they see all willy nilly.  These substances are much sturdier than their in game representations and everything needs to be moved one tier up.  Like wood should be what stone is currently, stone to metal, metal to tek, then tek getting a slight buff.  I know there'll be those who disagree, and probably disagree vociferously as it'd effect their playstyle...but honestly leveling a building shouldn't be as easy as it is currently

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1 hour ago, corrosivechains said:

I'm a newish player so my opinion obviously is weighed with a grain of salt here, but my biggest gripe with building tiers, and from what I've seen watching videos to get an idea of what to expect on officials...most tiers are just entirely too easy to break into.  Like from a survival gaming mindset you understand that thatch is mostly supposed to just offer you protection from the elements but the survival aspects in regards to player versus environment in the literal sense(IE weather and readily available resources) in nearly all multiplayer survival games just can't be that demanding on players.  It isn't  The Long Dark and it shouldn't be.  So all that's left is actual damage protection and realistically only Tek Tier offers that with any consistency.

Players shouldn't run up on a metal base and get excited, exclaiming how they only need 5-6 C4 to raid it.  And there's also a reason wild bears, elk, moose, and even larger animals in other parts of the world don't just go toppling over every log cabin and wooden shack they see all willy nilly.  These substances are much sturdier than their in game representations and everything needs to be moved one tier up.  Like wood should be what stone is currently, stone to metal, metal to tek, then tek getting a slight buff.  I know there'll be those who disagree, and probably disagree vociferously as it'd effect their playstyle...but honestly leveling a building shouldn't be as easy as it is currently

Ive always thought that a slight buff to base health wouldn't be a bad thing, but in ark current state ithat doesn't really matter if you have 10k or 50k health walls, they are getting in. I like your idea, although I would also like to see more automated defences that are actually effective. 

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On 11/16/2019 at 9:54 AM, Spiral3 said:

Jesus the OP is annoying.  MOST ARK PLAYERS ARE ON PvE.  Stop talking about the game like it's purely PvP.  When someone mentioned to you that stone is fine for them you said "obviously we're talking about multiplayer" but PvE has way more players than PvP and stone is the most commonly used building material on PvE servers.
GO PLAY RUST if you want to talk about the PvP meta like it's the main part of the game.

Thats not true at all. PVE is a minority. Check https://arkbrowser.com/clusters ffor real time player count for offical pvp,  6man, clasaic, official pve, legacy pve etc all the official clusters. You will notice that pvp clusters playerbase playerbase outnumber pve playerbase.

ARK started as a pvp game. PVE came later, added as an afterthought.

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12 minutes ago, covenantgrunt said:

Thats not true at all. PVE is a minority. Check https://arkbrowser.com/clusters ffor real time player count for offical pvp,  6man, clasaic, official pve, legacy pve etc all the official clusters. You will notice that pvp clusters playerbase playerbase outnumber pve playerbase.

ARK started as a pvp game. PVE came later, added as an afterthought.

So.. you're just not going to count all of the players on Unofficial.  Ok.

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Part of game design is including sinks, time-sinks and resource sinks. Ark is missing this.

 

Its become really easy to level up. And resources are simple to just start accumulating. 

 

For a game like Ark, it seems to me that there needs to be a greater resource cost for base upkeep. Not just build once and done, other that PvP or rare dino damage.

Weather events could effect structures. Like acid rain for metal. Some kind of anti-tek fog for tek. Sandstorms for stone/abode. Strong wind for thatch. 

And tsunamis to clear beach Bob's on a regular basis.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Aylana314159 said:

Part of game design is including sinks, time-sinks and resource sinks. Ark is missing this.

 

Its become really easy to level up. And resources are simple to just start accumulating. 

 

For a game like Ark, it seems to me that there needs to be a greater resource cost for base upkeep. Not just build once and done, other that PvP or rare dino damage.

Weather events could effect structures. Like acid rain for metal. Some kind of anti-tek fog for tek. Sandstorms for stone/abode. Strong wind for thatch. 

And tsunamis to clear beach Bob's on a regular basis.

 

 

It could be nice to have natural effects like rusting that cause structures to slowly lose HP. We have supply closets like rust that you fill up with building mats to auto repair structures in range against decay. This would be much better than current decay timer at preventing excessive structure spam.

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Just now, covenantgrunt said:

It could be nice to have natural effects like rusting that cause structures to slowly lose HP. We have supply closets like rust that you fill up with building mats to auto repair structures in range against decay. This would be much better than current decay timer at preventing excessive structure spam.

The current repair system would be terrible. Some kind of repair structure for each tier would work well. It would also be nice to display structure limits.

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18 hours ago, covenantgrunt said:

It could be nice to have natural effects like rusting that cause structures to slowly lose HP. We have supply closets like rust that you fill up with building mats to auto repair structures in range against decay. This would be much better than current decay timer at preventing excessive structure spam.

Im not too sure about this one. We already have so much upkeep in game already. Keeping dinos fed, keeping generators going, filling auto turrets. I do like the idea of a auto repair structure, as long as it repaired structures at a slower rate. It would also force raiders to be a little more aggressive even when offline raiding otherwise the base would start repairing itself. Yep I think that part is a damn good idea. 

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