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Breeding rework


LaugherOutLoud

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Breeding rework

I feel like breeding is something that needs to be addressed in Ark it is super fun and one of the biggest reasons I personally play but its also causing a lot of issues (imo) and also making major aspects of the game redundant. I want to split this discussion up into 3 main parts.
1) the state of breeding on official.
2) why I think there is an issue and,
3) possible fixes.

1: STATE OF BREEDING
On official servers many lines of dinosaurs are 2 years old now and have stats that exceed 150 points. Breeding is focussed around taming low level dinos and breeding them over and over again (with your good stat ones) until you get another mutation (2 extra points) into your desired stat. The only limiter is the dino level cap at 445. I have so much respect for all the breeders out there who have put ridiculous amounts of time into forming these lines and I know that this post comes at the expense of what you have been putting time into.

2: ISSUES WITH BREEDING
This part is composed of three main points being the discrepancy between newer players and older players, the constant need and calls for 'nerfs' and how this style of breeding takes away from the overall experience of the game.
Currently there is no competition or chance for a newer group of players to create new breeding lines as these older lines are just miles ahead and yes so they should be, they have had more time and more people putting effort into them but there should still be a slither of competition (whish is where my point 3 topic will come in).
Furthermore, the constant calls for dinosaurs to be nerfed or removed or fixed are mainly caused by these super strong breed lines that are causing well balanced dinosaurs to feel broken because they have stats the game wasn't really prepared for. 
finally, There is a whole complex system of kibbles that was recently reworked and implemented into the game that is realistically redundant outside of the 3 months of grace on any new servers. What is the value in taming dinos outside of the first 2 weeks of a tribe before they get given the older dino lines from an alpha. None there is none even thought this is one of the founding aspects of this game. I bet you would find most mega tribes wouldn't have tamed a rex, theri, rhino, paracer, trike, stego, mana or any other pvp or pve relevant dino in a long long time unless it was some level 5 to help with breeding.

3: POSSIBLE FIXES
I think we could start with putting a hard limit on the amount of mutations. it feels like this was the intention and that using a male with no mutations to stack more is a bit of an unintended loophole. 
so each dino should have a X/40 mutations to them regardless of matr/patrilineal lines. This would mean that any given dino would be forced to have a maximum of 40 mutations which would still allow for a total of 80 extra levels into any given stats.
this would also bring back competition but also give perks to those who have put the time in, any new tribe could now tame the god stego or god Theri with 70 points post tame into hp or dmg and start a really good line but even with that they would still need to put sooo much time into catching up to Alpha tribe X who has spent the last year breeding their Theri that started with 50 post tame dmg levels but has selectively bred the dmg and hp mutations and now has a 100 point theri dmg stat.

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Just now, TDavo said:

Not a bad thought process or idea but implementation would definitely cause some issues.

I think if anything like this was considered it would have to be with the intention to wipe servers tbh which is the main reason why I didn't put it in suggestions I was looking for a discussion about breeding I guess.

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On the other hand, newer players don't have to spend 2 years breeding up super amazing bloodlines, they can just buy them from people who have already put in immeasurable amounts of time and effort to build these lines...also bloodlines have to stop at level 377 or they won't be able to cap exp before running into the dino level hard cap. So there is still a limiter in place, it's just that people who have been playing for a very, very long time have figured out how to min-mix the poop out of the game's breeding mechanics.

Also most calls for nerfs I see have nothing to do with breeding really, it's all about how unfair manas are and that has nothing to do with breeding and everything to do with their built in mechanics. Maybe it's different on server, but on forums I don't really see that complaints specifically about bloodlines because of how available they are to anyone who can farm enough mats to afford them.

From my perspective as someone who plays mainly on SP and unofficials without a great economy, I think the current state of breeding on officials is great from the sense that you don't need to spend a ton of time breeding the "necessary" animals. You can just buy them and then spend the bulk of your time breeding your personal projects. Could just be me but breeding the standard set of animals is boring when you've both done it and seen it done so many times. The longer I play, the more I find myself wanting to go off and do random side projects instead of getting stuck breeding the same ~6 animals over and over again. The fact that official players have the option to skip that entirely is an unappreciated luxury, tbh.

Not to say that breeding is perfect, but the bulk of your issues with the system isn't the mechanics, it's that new players can't catch up to alphas. But the other consideration is that players with thousands of hours of experience already have a massive advantage over new players. If the breeding system was changed and the officials wiped (hypothetically), the alpha tribes would be back up and running in days, a few weeks at most. New players would still be crying about how unfair it is because alphas have the people, time and experience to do what someone with 100 game hours and is solo or in a small tribe simply can't replicate. So ultimately I don't think it's really a solution at all on a foundational level.

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I think it's fine the way it is. 

A single stat does have a max mute counter (like 184 I believe I read) so there's a limit, just a high one.

People aren't obligated to use any existing breed lines. Great thing about a sandbox game. In PvP, yes it means you'll be behind and often wiped but that's kind of the state of the game regardless and it's not like Mega's are releasing their top line anyway. They are probably 2 to 3 generations ahead already when they put them out.

People who want the breeding competition part can move to fresh unofficials or wait for a new official game mode to release. Shouldn't be an issue to do that if the competitive side of breeding is what draws you to the game.

People who have invested years should not be punished because new people are struggling. That goes against the nature of the game which is to survive and rule the ark.

As far as breed lines, there are plenty of dino's without a marketed line. Maybe it's because the person working on them doesn't trade or maybe it's because people see them as useless so what better project than breeding a monster line of a "useless" dino and showing how useful it can be?

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3 minutes ago, Cymas said:

On the other hand, newer players don't have to spend 2 years breeding up super amazing bloodlines, they can just buy them from people who have already put in immeasurable amounts of time and effort to build these lines...also bloodlines have to stop at level 377 or they won't be able to cap exp before running into the dino level hard cap. So there is still a limiter in place, it's just that people who have been playing for a very, very long time have figured out how to min-mix the poop out of the game's breeding mechanics.

Also most calls for nerfs I see have nothing to do with breeding really, it's all about how unfair manas are and that has nothing to do with breeding and everything to do with their built in mechanics. Maybe it's different on server, but on forums I don't really see that complaints specifically about bloodlines because of how available they are to anyone who can farm enough mats to afford them.

From my perspective as someone who plays mainly on SP and unofficials without a great economy, I think the current state of breeding on officials is great from the sense that you don't need to spend a ton of time breeding the "necessary" animals. You can just buy them and then spend the bulk of your time breeding your personal projects. Could just be me but breeding the standard set of animals is boring when you've both done it and seen it done so many times. The longer I play, the more I find myself wanting to go off and do random side projects instead of getting stuck breeding the same ~6 animals over and over again. The fact that official players have the option to skip that entirely is an unappreciated luxury, tbh.

Not to say that breeding is perfect, but the bulk of your issues with the system isn't the mechanics, it's that new players can't catch up to alphas. But the other consideration is that players with thousands of hours of experience already have a massive advantage over new players. If the breeding system was changed and the officials wiped (hypothetically), the alpha tribes would be back up and running in days, a few weeks at most. New players would still be crying about how unfair it is because alphas have the people, time and experience to do what someone with 100 game hours and is solo or in a small tribe simply can't replicate. So ultimately I don't think it's really a solution at all on a foundational level.

I think its worth clarifying im making this post from the perspective of someone in an alpha tribe who has 3000 hours on official PvP alone. I understand that time and a higher amount of tribe members will always be what separates good lines from bad lines as I stated in the original post. I do not believe a small / new tribe should be in the same league as a mega or alpha tribe but I do believe there should be competition. 

Also I really don't like the idea of buying if ou are talking about money then that is against CoC and also a really poopty part of the game. if you are talking about in game I can almost assure you that no alpha tribe is going to give a smaller tribe a soaking dino flat out and will only trade the most updated dino lines for better stats with smaller tribes wouldn't provide. I feel like a lot of what you say I address in the original post.

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3 minutes ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

I think it's fine the way it is. 

A single stat does have a max mute counter (like 184 I believe I read) so there's a limit, just a high one.

People aren't obligated to use any existing breed lines. Great thing about a sandbox game. In PvP, yes it means you'll be behind and often wiped but that's kind of the state of the game regardless and it's not like Mega's are releasing their top line anyway. They are probably 2 to 3 generations ahead already when they put them out.

People who want the breeding competition part can move to fresh unofficials or wait for a new official game mode to release. Shouldn't be an issue to do that if the competitive side of breeding is what draws you to the game.

People who have invested years should not be punished because new people are struggling. That goes against the nature of the game which is to survive and rule the ark.

As far as breed lines, there are plenty of dino's without a marketed line. Maybe it's because the person working on them doesn't trade or maybe it's because people see them as useless so what better project than breeding a monster line of a "useless" dino and showing how useful it can be?

my main concern is that it takes away from other aspects of the game. it might just be me but I feel like Taming dinos should always be an important part of the game. if you were only allowed to have a maximum of 20 mutations on a dinosaur that would make having a higher stat post tame much more valuable. 

I also try not to think of it as punishing breeders and it isn't about new people struggling, I spoke about how most new players will be given older breeding lines so will still be able to be competitive. that being said any change to breeding would require wipes which would wipe blood lines which would wipe heeeeaaaaaps of work done by others.

 

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Of course not real money, that's just stupid and I will never understand the people who do. But it's hard to call it trading when it's not animal for animal, it's flat out buying them for enormous amounts of materials.

If small/new tribes shouldn't be in the same league as an alpha, but there should still be competition, I guess I'm not sure how you think that would really work out. If they're not in the same league, they aren't in competition by default...it's just not really possible. No matter how much breeding is limited, alphas will always be on top, that's why they're alphas. Even if mutations were hard capped, guess who would have a stable of maxxed out animals first? And who would have even more incentive to make sure small/solo tribes never get the chance to build up enough to breed? I don't play PVP, but I know enough to know that alphas will take and hold onto any advantage they have. If that means continually wiping everyone to make sure no one can breed and compete with their lines, they'll do it. There will be less competition, not more.

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14 minutes ago, Cymas said:

Also most calls for nerfs I see have nothing to do with breeding really, it's all about how unfair manas are and that has nothing to do with breeding and everything to do with their built in mechanics. Maybe it's different on server, but on forums I don't really see that complaints specifically about bloodlines because of how available they are to anyone who can farm enough mats to afford them.From my perspective as someone who plays mainly on SP and unofficials without a great economy, 

the main ones are soakers and rexs. a rex can currently get to nearly 100k hp if you only level that. current rhinos are starting at 880% dmg before imprints. gigas have almost reached 500% dmg. Racers are 2 mutations away from 30K base hp before imprints. Stegos are getting up to 50 - 60k hp. argents are up to 30k hp. quetzals are breaking 40k. Then you have griffins, wyverns and such which don't really compete. 

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4 minutes ago, LaugherOutLoud said:

my main concern is that it takes away from other aspects of the game. it might just be me but I feel like Taming dinos should always be an important part of the game. if you were only allowed to have a maximum of 20 mutations on a dinosaur that would make having a higher stat post tame much more valuable.

Here's the thing though from a PvP perspective.

A small tribe doesn't need the top lines. It's not gonna help them anyway by sheer numbers alone. They need superior tactics. In that aspect, they can raise a ptera line and wreck in PvP.

You need top gear more than tames to compete in PvP. You need those tames if you're Alpha. If you're small and you try to play like an Alpha, that is where most of the can't get started complaints come from.

Guerilla tactics are your friend. Scout out a raid then counter raid. You need kits and hopefully a few pocket dino's. 

A Rhino to counter Giga's, a Griffin, and some Ptera picking plus hit and run tactics is really the only way  smaller tribes can survive. If that's not their style then they better find an Alpha willing to take them. 

Either way, resetting breeding will only delay and limiting breeding will just make Alpha's more likely to kill your passives in hopes of crushing your bloodline and giving them the dominant stats.

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12 minutes ago, Cymas said:

 I don't play PVP, but I know enough to know that alphas will take and hold onto any advantage they have. If that means continually wiping everyone to make sure no one can breed and compete with their lines, they'll do it. There will be less competition, not more.

that's true, I guess I was thinking more about the game overall. I definitely feel like breeding at the moment is taking away from what this game could be but I also see the uniqueness it brings to the game. 
I guess I didn't really think about the consequences of limiting the difference in power. Also my thing about the smaller tribes not being in the same league as an alpha was worded poorly, what I was trying to say is that I don't believe the game should ever be tuned for a tribe of 5 to easily take on a tribe of 50 but I do think there should be competition between their blood lines even if that tribe is 1 month old and just so happened to tame a god rex or something.

I do also understand that the sound of a more RNG base breeding (which is effectively what I suggested) would really be hated by people but then again breeding is completely RNG anyway atm.

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7 minutes ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

Here's the thing though from a PvP perspective.

A small tribe doesn't need the top lines. It's not gonna help them anyway by sheer numbers alone. They need superior tactics. In that aspect, they can raise a ptera line and wreck in PvP.

You need top gear more than tames to compete in PvP. You need those tames if you're Alpha. If you're small and you try to play like an Alpha, that is where most of the can't get started complaints come from.

Guerilla tactics are your friend. Scout out a raid then counter raid. You need kits and hopefully a few pocket dino's. 

A Rhino to counter Giga's, a Griffin, and some Ptera picking plus hit and run tactics is really the only way  smaller tribes can survive. If that's not their style then they better find an Alpha willing to take them. 

Either way, resetting breeding will only delay and limiting breeding will just make Alpha's more likely to kill your passives in hopes of crushing your bloodline and giving them the dominant stats.

I definitely agree with the bottom half of that, I had a little fling in a smaller tribe before returning to the bigger tribe a few months back and we got raided by some people on manas and rock eles, we were only 2 weeks old at that point and were still able to kill their rock ele and mana with our dire wolves by outplaying them. Having great dinos or tames doesn't give you the win by any means. and counters are definitely a huuuuge part of the PvP competence. 

I do however think good breeding lines is still very important for a smaller tribe to achieve if not to raid then to protect themselves even if when it comes down to it these bigger tribes will most likely out resource them... I would just like to see new breeding lines being possible and for taming to become an important part of the game again.

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4 minutes ago, LaugherOutLoud said:

I definitely agree with the bottom half of that, I had a little fling in a smaller tribe before returning to the bigger tribe a few months back and we got raided by some people on manas and rock eles, we were only 2 weeks old at that point and were still able to kill their rock ele and mana with our dire wolves by outplaying them. Having great dinos or tames doesn't give you the win by any means. and counters are definitely a huuuuge part of the PvP competence. 

I do however think good breeding lines is still very important for a smaller tribe to achieve if not to raid then to protect themselves even if when it comes down to it these bigger tribes will most likely out resource them... I would just like to see new breeding lines being possible and for taming to become an important part of the game again.

I do like the concept but I think it needs to be a new mode so I'd suggest fleshing it out and then adding it to both game suggestions and the link above that asks about new game modes. 

I feel like it would be a specialty type of mode and only have a few people interested in the beginning until people seen how it played out but I'm a huge fan of taming so it'd be neat to see it be vital for longer.

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I don't know, I'm a huge breeder and I don't think it takes away from taming at all. I still go out and spend hours hunting down animals, and not always just high levels or stat clearers! I do a lot of work with natural animal colors which requires looking for just the right combinations in wild animals, and then tons of work to get the colors into the stat lines, and then oops I found a better wild stat, better rebreed again...but I mean taming is also not at all what it used to be either. I remember the early game struggle days of even just getting a single carno down and the frantic race to farm enough meat/narcotics to keep it down until it tamed. These days taming is a science, and there's no guesswork, and with taming pens very little adventure.

And the kibble rework is especially great for taming because I hated keeping a kibble farm. Tons of animals I don't care about tamed solely as a resource, that's not the type of taming I ever want to do again. I happen to really like yutys so it's no hardship to keep a few extra featherheads around for their eggs. I mean, you don't even need an egg farm at all if you don't want one these days which is amazing.

There is definitely a lot less taming for the sake of it, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. The game has developed to the point where you basically don't have to tame anything you don't want outside of a few standard tames. It makes for a much more enjoyable gameplay experience. PVP tends to be more limited by its own nature, though, which on that point I agree it can feel a little pointless when you have to have these animals because everyone does, and of course that means those are all the lines that are the oldest and the most developed. But there's always room for surprises! The current meta developed over time and will probably change in the future. So there is a hidden value in not being able to compete with alphas, because it means maybe someone comes up with a new way to use a different animal, and then they'll have the base bloodline while everyone else has to start from scratch...there's always, always going to be that element of unpredictability.

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5 hours ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

I do like the concept but I think it needs to be a new mode so I'd suggest fleshing it out and then adding it to both game suggestions and the link above that asks about new game modes. 

I feel like it would be a specialty type of mode and only have a few people interested in the beginning until people seen how it played out but I'm a huge fan of taming so it'd be neat to see it be vital for longer.

No breeding or limited breeding mode would be cool. I might actually use this idea on my next personal challenge playthrough.

I agree OP; your suggestions are good and pretty decently thought out. I think its a bit late for such a drastic change. You will need a new mode for this to work effectivley without pissing a lot of people off. Would make a great new mode as mentioned

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8 hours ago, LaugherOutLoud said:

Breeding rework

...
3: POSSIBLE FIXES
I think we could start with putting a hard limit on the amount of mutations. it feels like this was the intention and that using a male with no mutations to stack more is a bit of an unintended loophole. 
so each dino should have a X/40 mutations to them regardless of matr/patrilineal lines. This would mean that any given dino would be forced to have a maximum of 40 mutations which would still allow for a total of 80 extra levels into any given stats.

Alternatively...

Instead of a hard cap, make a soft variable cap, that makes successive mutations more difficult; and per stat. Something like mutation chance = 10%/(mutation count+1). This would make the initial mutations easier, but make ridiculous amounts of them take a lot of work. If you want to not limit it so hard, there could be a "decay", so that after N generations the mutation "stabilizes" allowing more mutations.

I've also previously had the idea that perhaps better stats should not come at no cost, tamed or bred. Maybe those high heath, stamina, weight, and/or melee lines (wild or tames) should be hungrier. Food drain could be based off stat points.

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On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 3:27 AM, Uueerdo said:

Alternatively...

Instead of a hard cap, make a soft variable cap, that makes successive mutations more difficult; and per stat. Something like mutation chance = 10%/(mutation count+1). This would make the initial mutations easier, but make ridiculous amounts of them take a lot of work. If you want to not limit it so hard, there could be a "decay", so that after N generations the mutation "stabilizes" allowing more mutations.

I've also previously had the idea that perhaps better stats should not come at no cost, tamed or bred. Maybe those high heath, stamina, weight, and/or melee lines (wild or tames) should be hungrier. Food drain could be based off stat points.

I love this. 

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