Biotoxin or narcotics

[Theshinydino]

Biotoxin or narcotics

hey, i have been playing for awhile and when im taming and need to raise somthings torpor, i normally forcefeed it biotoxin because it raises more torpor and you dont need as much biotoxin as narcotics. However i still see many players and alpha tribes use narcotics instead. Is there a reason for this or is it just not very many people know about it.

 

[HairyNevus]

Biotoxin raises torpor at the exact same speed as narcotics, with exactly twice the torpor per unit. It spoils (slowly) which means you should keep it in a fridge or two. Since fridges only go up to 48 slots (100 if you use a Tek trough as one) and vaults go up to 350, I suppose it's easier to hoard narc than toxin.

 

Frankly I think the ease of just scooping toxin out of the ocean makes it the best for keeping dinos down. Narcotics only for tranq darts/arrows, IMO.

 

[d1nk]

Neither. Narcoberry

[Cowgirl]

I use narcotics to keep em Ko'd I'd rather use the toxin for shocking tranq darts, it is not nearly as easy to come by as spoiled meat and narco berries.

[yekrucifixion187]

You have to make a concerted effort to visit the ocean. That means grabbing your water tame, scuba, and then swimming for a bit to gather toxin which as stated above spoils over time.

With Narcotics, or Narcoberries, you can grab your Trike, Roo, Bronto, etc., head right out your gates naked and harvest a few thousand quick.

If turning into narcotics, there's probably tons of spoiled meat on your dino's or in troughs plus, as stated above, you just store it forever in larger quantities.

[MackTheKnife]

Narcoberries are best. Like with a beaver. Takes 9 minutes for the bar to deplete but after giving it enough berries it takes 30 minutes to raise it back up. The reason is because berries give such a small amount. Narcotics and toxin give more torpor but if time is a factor then it’s worse.

[HoboNation]

Plus the making of Narco paste gives you xp and is actually a pretty valid way to level up in the early game. When I start on a server and need levels, 8 - 10 mortar and pestles all making bunches of narcotics is really good constant passive xp to add while you are out killing and farming stuff. Plus you end up with a stupid amount of narco afterwards. So yeah I would say narco paste hands down is easier and more time efficient to acquire than biotoxin, plus it gives you xp which is just an added bonus.

[Cymas]

I have a lot more spoiled meat than biotoxin. I'd rather mass craft a billion narcs and use it up, plus lots of easy exp. Biotoxin I usually reserve for darts.

[TheDonn]

6 hours ago, Theshinydino said:

hey, i have been playing for awhile and when im taming and need to raise somthings torpor, i normally forcefeed it biotoxin because it raises more torpor and you dont need as much biotoxin as narcotics. However i still see many players and alpha tribes use narcotics instead. Is there a reason for this or is it just not very many people know about it.

As mentioned by a few, Narcoberries are basically king.

You gather them from your first moments on any ARK, and harvest them very safely with many many creatures.  Narcotics are great, but them and Biotoxin both increase torpor by 5 per second (Narcotic is 40 over 8 seconds, Biotoxin is 80 over 16 seconds).  Narcoberries increase torpor by 7.5 over 3 seconds, meaning 2.5 torpor per second.

This is important as @MackTheKnife said:  You give yourself more cushion on the torpor timer when using Narcoberries, which is great for the more touchy tames.  NOW:  We have KO'ed a 150 Castoroides (giant beaver).  A 150 has 3479 total torpor, and for a 1x tame using superior kibble, will need 1451 Narcoberries, or 411 Narcotic to stay under for the whole time.  With Narcotic, we have to refill the torpor bar 5 times, and we have to top it off every 22 minutes, give or take 30 seconds.  With Narcoberries, we have to do a 4th dose but only barely any, and the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd doses are done every 34 minutes, again, give or take 30 seconds.  With Biotoxin, the timers work out to the same as Narcotic because the torpor per second is exactly the same Narcotic so no sense in doing that calculation.  Using berries means we have a more flexible amount of time to do other things while it starves down (if its in a safe enough spot to be left unattended), or if sitting with the creature, it means we can spend more time monitoring the surroundings and keeping the tame safe.

Yes, it can be argued that 411 Narcotic is lighter and therefore easier to transport than 1451 Narcoberries.  But really, its 100 pounds different which most taming ventures easily accommodate for a much more comfortable taming experience.  And, if you need more because of spoilage, just hand harvest a little bit and add it to the pile while you babysit your sleeping creature.

And before it is mentioned or hinted at in any way, shape, or form:  There is absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, zero negative impact for using the lowest form of torpor delivery.  Using Narcoberries -DOES NOT- negatively impact taming effectiveness at all, using Narcotic and/or Biotoxin does not give higher taming effectiveness.  Anyone who believes this because of "this one time I used berries and got stinky taming effectiveness" probably shot the dino while it was falling down unconscious and hurt the TE that way, or left it unattended and it took a whack from an unfriendly Carno or Raptor.

[HoboNation]

56 minutes ago, TheDonn said:

And before it is mentioned or hinted at in any way, shape, or form:  There is absolutely, 100%, without a doubt, zero negative impact for using the lowest form of torpor delivery.  Using Narcoberries -DOES NOT- negatively impact taming effectiveness at all, using Narcotic and/or Biotoxin does not give higher taming effectiveness.  Anyone who believes this because of "this one time I used berries and got stinky taming effectiveness" probably shot the dino while it was falling down unconscious and hurt the TE that way, or left it unattended and it took a whack from an unfriendly Carno or Raptor.

Yes it's true that using different torpor consumables has no impact on taming effectiveness. However hitting a dino with an extra dart would have no effect either, in fact a creature will only lose taming effectiveness through damage if the taming process has begun, i.e. you put food in it's inventory, the taming bar starts and then it gets hit by something.

In fact a method can actually be used where you use darts instead of narco to keep a tame unconscious, All you have to do is starve tame it, i.e knock it out and dont put any food in it;s inventory, instead just let it's food go down, this way any damage that it takes while unconscious will not hurt it's taming effectiveness as the taming hasnt begun yet. Then when the food is low enough that it will eat all it need to tame in one go, thats when you put it's kibble or whatever food you are using into it's inventory. The moment you put food in it's inventory it mustnt take any more damage, but if it is just unconscious and you havent started the taming bar then you could hit it in the head with a club and it wouldnt hurt the effectiveness. 

I hope that makes sense.  

[TheDonn]

15 minutes ago, HoboNation said:

Yes it's true that using different torpor consumables has no impact on taming effectiveness. However hitting a dino with an extra dart would have no effect either, in fact a creature will only lose taming effectiveness through damage if the taming process has begun, i.e. you put food in it's inventory, the taming bar starts and then it gets hit by something.

This is 100% not true.  It is testable, as I just did right this minute.

If a creature goes down, at -THAT VERY MOMENT- its hitpoint value locks in the full TE.  If it takes any amount of damage, even before feeding, it will destroy the TE.

Tested, 2 level 25 Raptors.  Spawned on singleplayer, they take one headshot to KO.

Headshot one, went down, put mutton in inventory, TE started at 99.2%.

Headshot second, went down, shot one more while down -BEFORE FEEDING-, TE started at 45%.

It absolutely 100% fully affects the TE if the creature takes -ANY AMOUNT OF DAMAGE- the moment after it is KO'ed, regardless of if you have started feeding it.

[HoboNation]

1 hour ago, TheDonn said:

This is 100% not true.  It is testable, as I just did right this minute.

If a creature goes down, at -THAT VERY MOMENT- its hitpoint value locks in the full TE.  If it takes any amount of damage, even before feeding, it will destroy the TE.

Tested, 2 level 25 Raptors.  Spawned on singleplayer, they take one headshot to KO.

Headshot one, went down, put mutton in inventory, TE started at 99.2%.

Headshot second, went down, shot one more while down -BEFORE FEEDING-, TE started at 45%.

It absolutely 100% fully affects the TE if the creature takes -ANY AMOUNT OF DAMAGE- the moment after it is KO'ed, regardless of if you have started feeding it.

Ah dam, This I didnt know. Thanks for the clarification, someone had told me that it it didnt matter if they took damage before you feed them. I guess this being something you have tested and provided evidence for I will take your word for it. Thanks for the clarification man, much appreciated. 

[TheDonn]

2 minutes ago, HoboNation said:

Ah dam, This I didnt know. Thanks for the clarification, someone had told me that it it didnt matter if they took damage before you feed them. I guess this being something you have tested and provided evidence for I will take your word for it. Thanks for the clarification man, much appreciated. 

Absolutely.  A long, long time ago, I decided I would get to know the admin commands fairly well, long before creative mode made building easier.  Learning gfi codes and summon/tame commands for the dinos has made testing the majority of things really simple, and also seeing the strange way the devteam names stuff is interesting.

For instance:  The Managarmr is called "IceJumper," the Velonasaur is called "Spindles," the Giga is called "Gigant," the Ravager is called "CaveWolf," and the Thorny Dragon is called "SpineyLizard."  The Longneck is "OneShotRifle," the Pump Shotgun is "MachinedShot."  Just a few of the strange names that exist in the devkit!

But, @OP:  Try out using berries for taming.  It is low-tech, low-stakes, and is a pleasant way to ARK with no real downside.

[Milsurp]

13 hours ago, TheDonn said:

As mentioned by a few, Narcoberries are basically king.

<snip masters thesis in torpor management>

Nice facts, but nobody so far has explaing the underlying reason why narcoberries are better at torpor. It really has to do with the fact that while torpor is being raised, the torpor drop is suspended. It's not a case of trying to add enough to counter the decline, if you're adding torpor there is no decline happening.

And as long as the torpor isn't dropping, that's all you really need. That's why such a weak torpor additive is more effective, the others add more torpor but are eaten much faster, so torpor drop resumes much sooner. Mass berries simply take so long to process the torpor gain, that the delay in resuming the torpor drop makes them more effective than other torporifics.

 

[TheDonn]

8 hours ago, Milsurp said:

Nice facts, but nobody so far has explaing the underlying reason why narcoberries are better at torpor. It really has to do with the fact that while torpor is being raised, the torpor drop is suspended. It's not a case of trying to add enough to counter the decline, if you're adding torpor there is no decline happening.

And as long as the torpor isn't dropping, that's all you really need. That's why such a weak torpor additive is more effective, the others add more torpor but are eaten much faster, so torpor drop resumes much sooner. Mass berries simply take so long to process the torpor gain, that the delay in resuming the torpor drop makes them more effective than other torporifics.

 

That is what the "master thesis" explains!  Lower torpor per second (2.5 VS 5) means longer for bar to refill, so less maintenance and slower torpor bar refill, and an "extension" of sorts on the torpor timer.  I don't outright say it in super-plain English because I don't really do TL;DRs.  Do the reading!  Hahaha, just kidding.  Sort of.

[Milsurp]

4 hours ago, TheDonn said:

That is what the "master thesis" explains!  Lower torpor per second (2.5 VS 5) means longer for bar to refill, so less maintenance and slower torpor bar refill, and an "extension" of sorts on the torpor timer.  I don't outright say it in super-plain English because I don't really do TL;DRs.  Do the reading!  Hahaha, just kidding.  Sort of.

But it does need to be stated plainly that the torpor mechanic can't register gains and losses at the same time, it's either gaining or losing during a tame. And because you can mass feed berries, they delay the resumption of torpor drain by the longest amount (by far) of any of the taming foods, taking drain right out of the equation for that time. And that's the real reason they're the best taming food.

Best of all, the simplicity of the mechanic means that berry torpor gain time is the same for any tame, including high-drain-rate tames like gigas. In those cases, the effect of delaying the torpor drain is probably more important than any torpor gain (not up for the math though lol). 

[TheDonn]

4 minutes ago, Milsurp said:

But it does need to be stated plainly that the torpor mechanic can't register gains and losses at the same time, it's either gaining or losing during a tame. And because you can mass feed berries, they delay the resumption of torpor drain by the longest amount (by far) of any of the taming foods, taking drain right out of the equation for that time. And that's the real reason they're the best taming food.

Best of all, the simplicity of the mechanic means that berry torpor gain time is the same for any tame, including high-drain-rate tames like gigas. In those cases, the effect of delaying the torpor drain is probably more important than any torpor gain (not up for the math though lol). 

Indeed.  Which one would gather if they read my Master Thesis, unless they didn't actually read it.

But it is the internet, and a forum.  Stating things in a very straightforward way instead of expecting people to read and reach conclusions is PROBABLY a better way to do stuff.

[Oldster]

1 hour ago, TheDonn said:

Indeed.  Which one would gather if they read my Master Thesis, unless they didn't actually read it.

But it is the internet, and a forum.  Stating things in a very straightforward way instead of expecting people to read and reach conclusions is PROBABLY a better way to do stuff.

Emotionally potent over-simplifications are most assuredly the most effective form of propaganda.

Spreading the phrase, "The slower the increase, the longer the dose," could be a beneficial use of a neutral tool.

But in the end I wish people would read instead.

[Pipinghot]

On 6/26/2019 at 12:18 AM, Theshinydino said:

Biotoxin or narcotics

hey, i have been playing for awhile and when im taming and need to raise somthings torpor, i normally forcefeed it biotoxin because it raises more torpor and you dont need as much biotoxin as narcotics. However i still see many players and alpha tribes use narcotics instead. Is there a reason for this or is it just not very many people know about it.

(Almost) everyone knows about biotoxin, it's just that narcotics are more convenient.

* Narcs don't spoil, so you don't need to use refrigerator space to store them.

* Lots of people have a surplus of narcotics, they are constantly making narcs for the XP and then end up throwing out the extra.

As you've seen above, there are some people who prefer narcoberries, but again narcotics are more convenient since they don't spoil. You'll have to decide for yourself whether you think narcotics or berries are superior for the way you play the game.

[PFM]

Jellyfish are a nightmare. I only bother getting toxin when I am running low on shocking darts. 

 

BioToxin has a spoilage timer and can't be mass produced as easily. You can store an essentially infinite amount of Narcotics, and one run with  a bronto can net multiple thousand narcotics once you throw the berries in a bunch of chemical benches. 

[urmas]

narcotics are best as torpor effect and spped is exactly same for all 3. Like mentioned narcotics give exp, easy to make and no spoilage timer. Narcotics you need animals to kill but thy are everywhere and bushes also nearly everywhere. For experieced player no problem to use chemestry bench to produce tons of narcotics and you can even leave game for year and you still have same amount of narcotics. After 1 year pause you have 0 biotoxin remaining as even in refrigerator full stacks spoil in 312 days.

Biotoxin dont have any advantages over narcotics.

[Oldster]

Ignore this.

On 6/28/2019 at 2:38 PM, urmas said: