Mana Nerfs - How much is too much?

[Guest BubbaCrawfish]

17 minutes ago, covenantgrunt said:

The Mana at moment is still way stronger, faster and easier tame than a rock Drake.

Of course it is, as you're raising a baby...

 

If you're going to lend any credentials to your comparison, you should really compare apples to apples... lol

[Demerus]

On 4/26/2019 at 6:56 AM, Voltarendolo said:

You like to have a one purpose mount for everything in PVE? Why playing ark you have over 100 Creatures and only wanna use 1 becouse its convinient? where is the Fun?
 

Yes exactly us PVE'ers love to use Manas for everything! You nailed it! Bravo!

I personally like to use Manas for metal runs, heavy airborne transport, ziplining, general purpose flying, doing all tight and narrow caves, bosses (because their range is super useful now), meat runs, berry runs, farming stone, farming crystal, farming dust, converting poop into fertilizer, farming fungal wood on Aberr, Climbing up cliffs, farming whale blubber, collecting Artifact of the brute underwater on Center, hauling items around the workshop, building tall structures, getting drake eggs, getting wyv eggs, taming squids, taming quetzals, producing honey.

The Mana is the swiss army knife of ark.

 

[ThatPat99]

Great. Now if they could make it so stun duration for players is affected by fortitude. They won't stop nerfing a Dino that came out a few months ago, meanwhile stuns have been broken for years.

[covenantgrunt]

On 4/26/2019 at 2:57 PM, BubbaCrawfish said:

Of course it is, as you're raising a baby...

 

If you're going to lend any credentials to your comparison, you should really compare apples to apples... lol

What on Earth are you talking about ? There is no rock Drake on officials that can compete with even a tamed Mana. Much less the bred monsters that exist.l in huge numbers.

[Guest BubbaCrawfish]

3 hours ago, covenantgrunt said:

What on Earth are you talking about ? There is no rock Drake on officials that can compete with even a tamed Mana. Much less the bred monsters that exist.l in huge numbers.

Obviously you don't understand that a mana being tamable, is a lot easier to get than a rock drake that you need to hatch... Along with the venom you need to obtain to keep that drake alive...

Pretty simple to weigh up, unless of course, if you're just looking to make out that it's not equivalent...


Do you think that having to spend a hours hatching an egg, and raising a baby, doesn't make a dino harder to obtain? lol.

[covenantgrunt]

20 hours ago, Guest BubbaCrawfish said:

Obviously you don't understand that a mana being tamable, is a lot easier to get than a rock drake that you need to hatch... Along with the venom you need to obtain to keep that drake alive...

Pretty simple to weigh up, unless of course, if you're just looking to make out that it's not equivalent...


Do you think that having to spend a hours hatching an egg, and raising a baby, doesn't make a dino harder to obtain? lol.

That's exactly my point. The Mana is way easier to get than a rock Drake. It should not be vastly stronger than a dino that requires much greater effort.

[UNKVVN]

As I read all the trash that happens in this game it’s come to my conclusion that this game is trash and has been broken for years 

[Voltarendolo]

On 4/27/2019 at 11:18 PM, Demerus said:

Yes exactly us PVE'ers love to use Manas for everything! You nailed it! Bravo!

I personally like to use Manas for metal runs, heavy airborne transport, ziplining, general purpose flying, doing all tight and narrow caves, bosses (because their range is super useful now), meat runs, berry runs, farming stone, farming crystal, farming dust, converting poop into fertilizer, farming fungal wood on Aberr, Climbing up cliffs, farming whale blubber, collecting Artifact of the brute underwater on Center, hauling items around the workshop, building tall structures, getting drake eggs, getting wyv eggs, taming squids, taming quetzals, producing honey.

The Mana is the swiss army knife of ark.

 

Sarcasm... great Way to answer a serius Topic

Do you ever use a Gallilimus since it is fast? I dont think so
there shouldnt be any Dino faster than a Galillimus (thats his only purpose)
and now you are crying that the Mana whch is handsdown the  fastest and can Jump the highest. have a direkt boosted Airchange Mobility Perk.

Yes Manas are Broke by design they never schould be in the Game in the first place.
but ARK likes its "PayToWin" DLC content.

I feel sorry for you but even you should see that coming that this thing is broken by design

Velos was OP to     but you just have to lower its damage and its fine

Manas are just to broken in to Many ways and Wildcard trying to make them at least less usfull in PVP ince they dominate everybattle
I don't know if you ever Played PVP but thats brutal an encounter with a Mana at the moment means either you and your Tame or he die there is no way to flee from a Mana and your Quetz, Rex, Theri u name it will not stand a chane against a Mana in an open area.

for PVE you it means you need to use more time to kill something with a Mana.
in PVP you save houers of Work since it can't destroy you in seconds (now it takes multiple seconds)

If you have a Quetz and you are Farmming gues what you dont have a Quetz afterwards (not even when you equip your Farm Quetz with a Minigun Turret) when you encounter a "Managarmr Troll"

I completly see why there is no Issue for PVE with the Mana they was fast moving DPS machines with a Long range attack.
How would you feel when every 4 Day when you come online all your Dinos are just gone.. (I know you play PVE and dont need to worry this things)
But PVP player who even do a good deffence will still tell you som of there Dinos was killed by trolls

and if you come with  the argument: "yeah than dont play PVP you miss the whole point PVP iss fun as long as there is diffrent aproaches for things or a counter to your Dino... Managarmrs cant be countered.

so at the end It takes longer for PVE players to do things (which sounds like a longer way to play the game)

it safes PVP players lot of time not Taming creatures over and over and have time tobuild up your PVP Kits (which sounds like a longer way to play the game at the end)

I most of the time don't play on official servers (yes shame on me) I have work and a real life next to "ARK is life" 

next time befor just give troll answers think about what you want to say this topic is maby a joke for you but not a single PVPer

and to your Facepalm think about it, if not nerved it is the Swiss Army Knife
Simple to use Fast decent Weight great Stam Movability DPS Breedable Saddle.... Yes Swiss Army Knife the only thing that dosn't fit the description is the Swiss Army Knfie is Green and Compact

 

[Lycan187u]

2 hours ago, Voltarendolo said:

Sarcasm... great Way to answer a serius Topic

Do you ever use a Gallilimus since it is fast? I dont think so
there shouldnt be any Dino faster than a Galillimus (thats his only purpose)
and now you are crying that the Mana whch is handsdown the  fastest and can Jump the highest. have a direkt boosted Airchange Mobility Perk.

Yes Manas are Broke by design they never schould be in the Game in the first place.
but ARK likes its "PayToWin" DLC content.

I feel sorry for you but even you should see that coming that this thing is broken by design

Velos was OP to     but you just have to lower its damage and its fine

Manas are just to broken in to Many ways and Wildcard trying to make them at least less usfull in PVP ince they dominate everybattle
I don't know if you ever Played PVP but thats brutal an encounter with a Mana at the moment means either you and your Tame or he die there is no way to flee from a Mana and your Quetz, Rex, Theri u name it will not stand a chane against a Mana in an open area.

for PVE you it means you need to use more time to kill something with a Mana.
in PVP you save houers of Work since it can't destroy you in seconds (now it takes multiple seconds)

If you have a Quetz and you are Farmming gues what you dont have a Quetz afterwards (not even when you equip your Farm Quetz with a Minigun Turret) when you encounter a "Managarmr Troll"

I completly see why there is no Issue for PVE with the Mana they was fast moving DPS machines with a Long range attack.
How would you feel when every 4 Day when you come online all your Dinos are just gone.. (I know you play PVE and dont need to worry this things)
But PVP player who even do a good deffence will still tell you som of there Dinos was killed by trolls

and if you come with  the argument: "yeah than dont play PVP you miss the whole point PVP iss fun as long as there is diffrent aproaches for things or a counter to your Dino... Managarmrs cant be countered.

so at the end It takes longer for PVE players to do things (which sounds like a longer way to play the game)

it safes PVP players lot of time not Taming creatures over and over and have time tobuild up your PVP Kits (which sounds like a longer way to play the game at the end)

I most of the time don't play on official servers (yes shame on me) I have work and a real life next to "ARK is life" 

next time befor just give troll answers think about what you want to say this topic is maby a joke for you but not a single PVPer

and to your Facepalm think about it, if not nerved it is the Swiss Army Knife
Simple to use Fast decent Weight great Stam Movability DPS Breedable Saddle.... Yes Swiss Army Knife the only thing that dosn't fit the description is the Swiss Army Knfie is Green and Compact

 

Bro mana are trash in pvp once u wimps learn how to counter...dismount rider kill ez pz sheesh for the life of me I can't figure out why does 80% of the pvp community  not just Google how to kill mana riders in YouTube fml ppl overcome adapt there tons of ways to counter but none wants to adapt just sit in forums whineing... 

[Voltarendolo]

17 hours ago, Lycan187u said:

Bro mana are trash in pvp once u wimps learn how to counter...dismount rider kill ez pz sheesh for the life of me I can't figure out why does 80% of the pvp community  not just Google how to kill mana riders in YouTube fml ppl overcome adapt there tons of ways to counter but none wants to adapt just sit in forums whineing... 

Plant Z is not realy a option since a decent Managarmr rider will see the flashbang and just dash out of youor range and come back 1 second after that.

If you find any Easy Methode to kill a Managrmr I would like to hear them and I think the most of the PVP comunity too

this Is the only one I found so far which really helped me out of 5 Encouonters with a Managrmr I won 1 so far (I don't use Manas dont like to use broken Dinos)
my Ptera still died but at least i plant y his Managmr (only becouse he was to cocky and I would say I am a pretty dencent PVPer) and my Kit is now Base agaainst Mana only so allways a shield and plant Y and a Dinoleash.

Fights against a Mana need some prep work:
1 Allways carry the Item you need against a Mana in your Hotbar on comftable buttons to press (better not on 7 8 9 0) you dont have time to equip this Items in an ambush
2 you have to keep calm (even with the fear in your mind that the next 10sec will screw you if you make a wrong desicion)
3 Decide blazing fast what you will do!! there is just time and   -->Fleeing is NOT an option<--.

most people will have already Trubble with step 1. since as long as you farm you most like will not have everything set up nicle against a Managarmr with makes step 2 and 3 usless anyways.

of course some encounters you may can win put he chances are just to low and even if you start.

Manas are kind of okey now but befor they was much to powerfull.

A griffin allso can escape easly but if you know how you can stop his run away attempts with a Pteranodon
Manas are gon in about 10sek out of your Render distance and you have no ability to stop that (unless you Grapple it and it really dont have enough Weight)

Most Manas I grappled still Run around without problem. wich is even dangerous to stay grappled when it jumps away, when he just drops normal you get pulled up into the air and then slammed down even faster when he divebombs the ground since the momentum you will expirice downwards is even bigger than normal falling (which result in more fall damage) while the Managarmr dosnt even get any falldamage at all (allso broken)

You said:  "there tons of ways to counter but none wants to adapt"  the only really good Video look at the bottom
(maby you found more please send me the link)

They are not really Great to Raid somebody but open Field PVP without any preped area ... Managarmr pretty sure will win and if not he get away without a problem.

So and now we come to the Really funny part a good Managarmr rider will counter even your preped area

how a fight against a brave and Expirence Mana fighter will look

you prep your area Dino leash and plant y

Expirence Guy will come with a Mana with have Weight Health some stam and Melee since he gnow that you can geet grappled what can kill your Mana

He will dash into your Dino Leash to desstroy it. now he will be stuck in the plant Y (Your chance to take your Compund Bow or shotgun and lower its health

he will get of and jumps to the ground and steps into a other plant Y (Now you are pretty much the winner) he grabs his flamethrower flames his wway out of Plant Y and allso frees his Mana (maby will lake some damage from burning bbut thats still okey) he will mount and jumps away he is gone you cant chatch him anymore he is to fast

You grrapple him you die since he isnt a Morron and is not like:  "ohh Melee only" jumps and slams you back into the ground
 

If you could Trap a Griffin or a Wyvern this way they are dead for sure since they cant have a saddle but a Mana can not just have a saddle (wich is pretty op for it anyway) they can have better ones and they cost nothing to craft in case yoou finde a Blueprint (dont know if official have BP for Manas enabled if yes... Chitin Fiber and Hide easy farmed wit highend Saddle)
 

 

[Fukushu]

To be fair, manas were so stupidly broken that you could kill a wild giga in under 1 minute with the first tamed ones. Even after the first nerfs it was still possible. 

Titans on other maps than ext? Just bring your freshly tamed mana and kill it in 2-3 minutes.

They should have never made them breedable, or rework them completely because they are way to broken and I say that as a PVE player. 

I don't even want to start imagining how horrible it was on PVP with those creatures.

They are still the fastest mount, can still freeze, it's just now risky to play with them because you have to come up close. 

You are still able to breed them, they are already over 550dmg breeds and some of you are complaining.

[Kodking194]

i have a way to counter them cary a freakin op shoty seriously, i got an ascenddent shoty and i do fine. i have only been killed once and that was cause i was sniped. man up

[Oieru]

1 hour ago, Fukushu said:

To be fair, manas were so stupidly broken that you could kill a wild giga in under 1 minute with the first tamed ones. Even after the first nerfs it was still possible. 

Titans on other maps than ext? Just bring your freshly tamed mana and kill it in 2-3 minutes.

They should have never made them breedable, or rework them completely because they are way to broken and I say that as a PVE player. 

I don't even want to start imagining how horrible it was on PVP with those creatures.

They are still the fastest mount, can still freeze, it's just now risky to play with them because you have to come up close. 

You are still able to breed them, they are already over 550dmg breeds and some of you are complaining.

Let's not exaggerate. On official servers you can't kill a Giga with a first tamed mana in under 1 minute. Sure, it was easy, but it took around 10min. Titans you also can't kill with mana in 2-3 minutes. For Desert Titan it took also around 10min with 3 bred manas. The others were harder to kill because of the various attacks and more HP. I think you are reffering to buffed unofficial servers.

The creature (a completely new and versatile one) is now basically useless. It's attack gets interrupted if it is being hit and paradoxically you must now be almost inside the creature you are attacking to deal real damage. I feel robbed of the money I payed for the content promised in Extinction. A main part of it is now trash and more useless than a boulder. At least a boulder you can farm and build a wall... Manas just sit pretty in the base now. That's all.

[Fukushu]

We killed a giga on ragna 42 in under 1 minute. 56 seconds with around 600+ meele mana, leveled. They were broken as raptor and I was talking about the normal titans on other maps.

also 10 minutes to kill the desert titan with 3 manas and you don't think that it's broken? ^^

[Voltarendolo]

On 4/16/2019 at 3:18 AM, jansenv said:

I think this is too far. They need to re-work them entirely at this point, as now they seem pretty useless except for travel and PVE. Maybe bring the damage back up to pre-nerf now that you can't really hit it from that far out.

that is the Reason range was much to high allso Freez and Damage... in PVP they still wreck you in open area 
they are more speedy hunters now not so usfull in a Raid (only to chase the Griffin Wyvern or Managrmr that try to run away with the Blueprints and Breed Eggs)

[Lycan187u]

Here's how I prep my base first I tame purlovia not one but 10 lol 1 male 9 females I start breeding while taming the purlovia I tame few microraptors 1 male few females start breeding then I place the purlovia just out of render to my closest turret tower  I literally have dunno 50 purlovia between my base an the outer parimeters micro raptor staggered throught aswell these will help a ton so once I notice my purlovia  has been killed by a mana ik it's time to wait an watch soon as I see the mana scouting get dismounted I run throw my best velo an shred the rider\mana I've place few gd hide spots to snipe so I wait for them to get their bag boom killed again lol this will take a few kills with an assault rifle the constant  fire rate they can't use the breath so they need try dash away well usually  the purlovia dismount  them again so I wash rinse an repeat

[Fukushu]

They are breedable, I don't understand why people are getting pissed. They were broken beyond everything and are nerfed now. 

In some months, the manas will have 800 base meele and still wreck everything.

You want the old manas back with 800 base meele? Yes, a really great idea.

[Cedric]

Wow, this is still going strong!

[Lycan187u]

11 hours ago, Cedric said:

Wow, this is still going strong!

Yes it has seems to be a popular  discussion  these days ...good to see you in forums cedric I'm Lycan a long time ark lover\legacy player will be working on 10,000 hrs sooner or later but just wanted to say thnx for popping  in from time to time 

[Onimusha759]

@TheDonn ive already replied to your 1st point before so ill start with the others.

"Outruns rex"  i was literally saying since the raptor can run faster then the rex it needs nerfed by what you pronerf players are saying.  What brought that up was because you pronerf players saying its ability to freeze things is op, which is bs.  The larger the target the dramatically smaller the freeze time.  The only time its op is against small creatures that its overkill to while against actual combative creatures like the rex and giga it lasts less then a second.  Then theres a cooldown before it can be freezed again anyways, which i agree with, but it does make me ask why bother having a freeze at all since against things that actually matter the freeze effect itself is a fat joke.  Thus me joking and saying you get maybe to press 1 button before it unthaws so a raptor which can run and let you have up to 10 secs to push buttons deserves nerfed because thats "op" compared to the manas actual freeze ability.

So pvp players are crying because a mana can guerrilla warfar things effectively?  Cant most creatures with range attacks be lvled to outrun anything and shoot at a target without ever getting hit in turn?  I mean sure the mana starts with that ability but since its lobbed in with fliers it cant get any faster right, that is a form of balance.  Now for the real point, its a flier, i can take a ptera and peck a rex, maybe even a giga to death without ever taking a single hit.  All fliers when controlled properly have this ability.  2 words buddy, lightning wyvern.  Can use a long range dmg attack from safety of the sky to shred a giga.  Any flier can flee, sit for 10secs, and be ready to continue destroying that rex or giga.  The only thing youve accomplished with your 3rd point was the manas abilities to the rest of its category is mostly standard.

Mosas are attacked though by everything.  Before you say its because its domesticated, lets not forget the game seems to lob dinos into teams rather then im bigger then you.  A lot of the time carnos and rexes work together in harmony and wont attack each other though realisticly a rex would go after a carno.  A dilo will go after an ank and doed, and get creamed in the wild.  The wild creatures work more as carni team, herbi team with carni team attacking herbi team.  This leads also to your pego argument, your full of it.  Most creatures wont attack a rex or giga when domesticated.  Certain creatures simply just dont care, like the pego.  Wolves will attack almost anything which was my point.  You cant determine if something would be apex simply  because other things attack it.  Theres things in this game that absolutely makes no sense like a pego attacking a giga, wolves attacking a mek, anglers after a mosa.  To further my team argument, manas are lobbed into the flier team.  Flier team is also attcked by every creature just about.  I think some things do ignore the wyvern but for the mana and wolves, wolves are rather ballsy.  They attack  creatures much larger then them anyways so it makes sense theyed go after the mana in the wild.  Really because how odd ball the game is we cant really use the behavior of anything to determine apexness, since the game breaks its own rules and even changes behavior of creatures in different areas(Like rex ignores wild raptors in 1 region and eats them in another).  Thats my point though, you cant say manas not an apex because something hunts it when plenty other odd ball no sense things are happening.  Your point that wild is apex to tamed gets thrown in the undetermined category too because rexes and gigas are ignored but mosa is attacked.  The game isnt credible here.

By highest lvl nonboss creature i meant its the strongest and highest lvl unlocked saddle that extinction added pointing to its extinction apexness, since its a standard that a new apex is released with each story ark.

So to recap, weve proven manas dont really have anything over other creatures in its own category, and proven we have to establish apexness on our own because the game is unreliable in this way.  So if the mana just does whats already available and doable by other creatures in its category, how is it op...?  Especially when wyverns do it even better(destroying from safety).  Truly the only thing op about it is its speed but thats not exactly completely game breaking.  As others have said, its a survival game, adapt and overcome like forza and salt like to use.  It sounds more like pvpers didnt like a new creature shaking up the meta which was the point and a good thing.  Theyd rather be lazy and not adapt their defenses, and cry because there was something new.  With every new map theres new challenges both in pvp and pve.  Im sure theres plenty of people who cried over the snow cave, adapt to it, grow your tactics...Your very pvp statement is what your forsaking.  I wont say original mana didnt need nerfed, it might of, but to put its frost dmg range to almost bite range is overkill.  I can deal with stat nerfs, done it with wyverns, no big deal, but the nerf of the dmg range is bs.  At least let us have fire breath range, maybe lightning breath if you could be generous.  Compared to this id rather just have normal frost breath.

[TheDonn]

1 hour ago, Onimusha759 said:

-SNIP-

Oni, I understand the point you are trying to make.  But what I explained is not an opinion.  It is the fact about how one differentiates between a powerful creature and an Apex creature.  In the current situation, Manas are relegated to other roles, not outranging turrets and killing a base full of dinos.  Tamed creatures do not lie on an Apex/non-Apex scale.  Creatures in their natural habitat lie on the Apex/non-Apex scale.  Again, this is not my opinion, it is the way that Apex/non-Apex is factually differentiated from just, a powerful creature.

wild = somewhere on the Apex Scale.  Wild Gigas aren't attacked by Pegomastax.  Wild Mosas aren't attacked by Anglers.

tamed = no longer on the Apex Scale.  Domesticated Gigas are attacked by Pegomastax.  Domesticated Mosas are attacked by Anglers.

Wild Managarmr are not Apex creatures.

Tamed Managarmr are powerful creatures.

As someone who has killed a wild non-corrupt Giga with all 3 (excluding Ice) flavors of Wyverns AND a Mana, all solo, and all at different times, you cannot blankly say they are on the same level.  It is (or more appropriately, WAS) FAR MORE EASIER with a Mana than any other dino.  The range of the Ice Breath, the speed at which it dealt damage, the speed at which you can distance yourself from the Gigas, it is (and I can't stress this enough) -FAR FAR FAR EASIER- on a Mana.

Not to be this guy....................  But you YOURSELF said you hadn't tamed or used them before these nerfs.  So your information, opinion, and ultimately your point is formed from at best, 2nd degree information or worse.  If  you didn't use them, it would probably be wise to not throw out such a strong opinion about their use/position in PvP and PvE meta.

Again, you can call me "full of it" and try to discredit this fact-based approach, but the rules of language don't change because of the way the forums have told you to feel about something.

[TheDonn]

1 hour ago, Onimusha759 said:

The larger the target the dramatically smaller the freeze time.  The only time its op is against small creatures that its overkill to while against actual combative creatures like the rex and giga it lasts less then a second.

Forgot to say:  100% factually patently false.  Yesterday, no new Mana nerfs had been rolled out since the latest ones, the ones we are discussing.  I killed a level 75 Corrupt Giga yesterday.  It 100% for sure, backed by official server data, freezes for damn near 10 seconds.  So, you are mistaken, big time.

EDIT:  Because I have to exhaustively cover every single base, I will say:  It was YES, with a Managarmr, and I was 100% for sure solo-killing it.  Imprint amount/damage/saddle is all irrelevant to freeze duration.  Just tested now on a Corrupt Rex as well, same result.  Long freeze.  Solo.  Yes, on a Managarmr.

[TheDonn]

On 4/29/2019 at 1:00 PM, covenantgrunt said:

What on Earth are you talking about ? There is no rock Drake on officials that can compete with even a tamed Mana. Much less the bred monsters that exist.l in huge numbers.

Grunts point here is VERY IMPORTANT.  The power of a Mana doesn't come from being bred for 25 generations.  A level 75 tamed Mana could level an entire base full of tames with a prim saddle against an offline tribe.  THAT is what made nerfs necessary.  It is only made worse by the fact that 10-12K hp birth breeds are floating around, with Raptor Jesus only knows how much melee.  But again, 100% centered around the Ice Breath, only.

Maybe if we could have Drake lines, they would compete with Manas.  But in the current situation of find-and-hatch only, it would take one damn special Drake find to really put a fight to a Mana!  Not saying it wouldn't be possible...  Because Drakes do hit pretty damn hard!  Especially if you could get a few air-slashes in.

[Onimusha759]

29 minutes ago, TheDonn said:

Forgot to say:  100% factually patently false.  Yesterday, no new Mana nerfs had been rolled out since the latest ones, the ones we are discussing.  I killed a level 75 Corrupt Giga yesterday.  It 100% for sure, backed by official server data, freezes for damn near 10 seconds.  So, you are mistaken, big time.

Then ive been misinformed and i can see your argument of the mana being op as more practical.  The range still seems stupid, if it does a stupid amount of dmg the power should be nerfed though i think lightning wyvern should be as far as a breath attack should reach.  Beyond that i think the range should be nerfed down to a lightning wyverns.  I thank you for letting me know this tho, it makes me consider the mana again and is good to know, so thank you.

59 minutes ago, TheDonn said:

Oni, I understand the point you are trying to make.  But what I explained is not an opinion.  It is the fact about how one differentiates between a powerful creature and an Apex creature.  In the current situation, Manas are relegated to other roles, not outranging turrets and killing a base full of dinos.  Tamed creatures do not lie on an Apex/non-Apex scale.  Creatures in their natural habitat lie on the Apex/non-Apex scale.  Again, this is not my opinion, it is the way that Apex/non-Apex is factually differentiated from just, a powerful creature.

And irl if i raised an animal and then released it into the wild anything in the wild that wouldnt screw with a wild 1 still wouldnt screw with it.  Your point fails there.  A shark WILL NOT attack a killer whale, it doesnt matter if its Bubba the eskimo been hunting all week or Shamoo born and raised in sea world then released into wild, shark wont F with it.  So you have to be arguing game logic, which ark doesnt have, so you cant prove its not apex.  It can be speculated and with nerfs may be the new objective to make it not, but nothing 100% full proof. Frankly something that can fly, freeze the biggest beasts, and shred things would realisticly be the apex.  Your still avoiding the fact some creatures domesticated have their safety from being higher on the chain.  Some just dont care because of game "logic".  That in itself destroys half your argument and my whale example destroys the other part.  Whale argument forces your argument to be game logic to stand, then the fact ark doesnt have proper game logic because of what ive said and contradictions means you cant effectively argue that.  To argue what you are wild raptors would have to attack tamed rexes, which they dont, wild rexes would have to attack tamed gigas, which they dont, and wild dilos would attack any tamed carni raptor sized or bigger, which they dont.  Then you throw pegos and anglers doing the opposite, this proves apex has nothing to do with it, its just wc twisted logic of how things should act.  Thus because of the games contradictions you cant argue mana is below wolf on food chain based on the wolves attacking it.  That was my point, your argument cant stand because of how ark is, apex wise.

Let me ask, can a mana outrun turrets?  If yes then its speed needs nerfed, absolute must.  Can it freeze beyond the range of a lightning wyverns breath?  If yes that needs nerfed to a more appropriate level, like somewhere between fire and lightning breath range.  Its dmg shouldnt be just a few feet infront of it, beam needs brought to wyvern distance and dmg range buffed to the new limit.  It sounds like maybe wc is nerfing the mana the wrong way.  Why not slow it down a lil and reduce its freeze range instead of reducing its dmg range?  That is your problem with it right, the actual freeze?  If it has a lil too much power then nerf its actual dmg output.  Would it be acceptable to you?  To nerf its speed some, nerf freeze time a lil, nerf freeze distance to wyvern range attack distance, allow the full beam to do dmg, nerf dmg some if needed(does it strike multiple times or once?  If once it should be pretty heavy to compete with a wyverns multiple striking breath)?

[Snipsnip]

In regards to pvp the nerf was greatly needed as we all know. It’s a great shame they won’t differentiate between PvE and PvP changes. At the end of the day though a pvp meta of griffins, pteras, manas and wyverns is much more fun then only manas and who has the best saddle.