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Mana Nerfs - How much is too much?


Demerus

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i am annoyed cause i spent days breeding manas to get a superiorly op one to hop on update the game and find it is crap now. i spent actual days on singleplayer breeding which unlike online the time ingame stops when you get off so yeah not really fair for majority of people. my bred out mana is now bout as strong as a regularly bred mana without any muts, mine was loaded with melee, stam and health muts.

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Speaking of balance, if everything is op, then nefing any of them actually unbalances the game.  Then theres also the progression fact that some dinos are supposed to be better, why do you think a rex saddle is at lvl 74 but a raptors at 18(i think, its around there).  Obviously the developers think the rex is a better dino and more op then a raptor.  Now we have to facter most endgame creatures are op compared to the majority of the creatures because they are the final reward.  So the game is purposely designed to be unbalanced in the fact that most creatures are just stepping stones, truly its no different then the weapons and armor though i dont see anyone crying that hide is worthless compared to flak or that pump action shotty is creaming that noobs revolver...Because progression wise its supposed to, realisticly if you took any of these creatures irl and did 1v1 fights there isnt gonna be a balance, 1s gonna kick the other 1s azz and thats it, just like how an assualt rifle is gonna own a single action old school round bullet revolver.  So if we do nerf everything to completely balance the game we create a big problem, nothing is special so theres no diversity between anything which would destroy progression and a huge portion of the appeal of the game.  Progression system is shot and thered be no point in upgrading because there is no upgrade.  The reward for your time and effort is gone.  Youd have to nerf harvesting abilities to balance out all of the harvest dinos if your truly gonna focus solely on balance.  The fact the devs have a lvl progression shows some things are supposed to be superior, its also a survival game, part of surviving is dealing with apex predators which arnt gonna be apex if they arnt better then the rest.  Personal opinion, it seems the mana was supposed to be the dragon of this dlc.  It should be on par with them, then considering you can get wyverns for free, i feel like the dragon i paid real money for should be better.  Then finally, the fact extinction is the endgame, you label anything endgame and its expected to be the best of whatever it is.  So the extinction tames should be the most impressive 1s for whatever category theyre in.  Id say the voleno(Sry if thats misspelled) is the best raptor bary lvl tame because its a walking machine gun.  Gasbags own the ptera for beginner flier/air scout.  Owl kinda beats out argy too.  So why the heck isnt the mana being allowed to out perform a wyvern?

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8 minutes ago, Onimusha759 said:

Speaking of balance, if everything is op, then nefing any of them actually unbalances the game.  Then theres also the progression fact that some dinos are supposed to be better, why do you think a rex saddle is at lvl 74 but a raptors at 18(i think, its around there).  Obviously the developers think the rex is a better dino and more op then a raptor.  Now we have to facter most endgame creatures are op compared to the majority of the creatures because.  So the game is purposely designed to be unbalanced in the fact that most creatures are just stepping stones, truly its no different then the weapons and armor though i dont see anyone crying that hide is worthless compared to flak or that pump action shotty is creaming that noobs revolver...Because progression wise its supposed to, realisticly if you took any of these creatures irl and did 1v1 fights there isnt gonna be a balance, 1s gonna kick the other 1s azz and thats it, just like how an assualt rifle is gonna own a single action old school round bullet revolver.  So if we do nerf everything to completely balance the game we create a big problem, nothing is special so theres no diversity between anything which would destroy progression and a huge portion of the appeal of the game.  Progression system is shot and thered be no point in upgrading because there is no upgrade.  The reward for your time and effort is gone.  Youd have to nerf harvesting abilities to balance out all of the harvest dinos if your truly gonna focus solely on balance.  The fact the devs have a lvl progression shows some things are supposed to be superior, its also a survival game, part of surviving is dealing with apex predators which arnt gonna be apex if they arnt better then the rest.  Personal opinion, it seems the mana was supposed to be the dragon of this dlc.  It should be on par with them, then considering you can get wyverns for free, i feel like the dragon i paid real money for should be better.  Then finally, the fact extinction is the endgame, you label anything endgame and its expected to be the best of whatever it is.  So the extinction tames should be the most impressive 1s for whatever category theyre in.  Id say the voleno(Sry if thats misspelled) is the best raptor bary lvl tame because its a walking machine gun.  Gasbags own the ptera for beginner flier/air scout.  Owl kinda beats out argy too.  So why the heck isnt the mana being allowed to out perform a wyvern?

well said dude well said. this is what ark is progression if a mana is no stronger than say a carno will people tame it, no. things are better for a reason imagine a rex being as powerful as a dodo or the otherway around. there are reasons and wildcard are saying screw you to their own ark lore. survival of the fittest as some would say, the more you progress the better. you would not spend hour leveling to be able tame and ride a rex if it is litterally no better than a carno or raptor. think bout that

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23 hours ago, Onimusha759 said:

O ya, super op ice breath that freezes anything worthwhile for a quarter second.  I bet that gives me just enough time to push a button, OMG thats amazing, totally game breaking.  Sry raptor that outruns that rex and gives me enough time to hit a button MULTIPLE times!, your azz is getting nerfed b****.  XD, i mean really, the freeze is almost worthless on anything that could be a legitimate threat to the mana.  I cant say anything about the dmg but the range should be at least wyvern lvl as well as dmg being same range as animation.  Ive never tamed a mana and im doubting i want to anymore.  You can say it isnt endgame, but its the highest lvl non boss creature added in extinction pointing to that it is extinctions endgame "flier"(That cant do most flier things, like grab).  Also wolves charge meks which are considered above rex and anglers attack mosas, both cases are weaklings attacking known apex... Not the soundest argument @TheDonn.

First Oni, you quoted someone else not me.  I'll include what I said for context:

"They are travelers that can freeze safely from range and then get up close and scrap a bit, and then make a hasty retreat.  They should've never been anything more than they are with this new nerf.  They are not an "apex" creature, they were badly designed. 

Before any of you quote me about how Manas are REALLY APEX CREATURES:  If Studio WildCard intended for them to TRULY be an Apex, they wouldn't be prey for literally every carnivore in the snow biome from level 10 Wolves to Rexs/Gigas."

Second, the structure of your post is a bit hard to understand, but I'll respond as I interpret it.

Outruns Rexs?  I agree!  But that wasn't in question.

Before this nerf, the statement, "... the freeze is almost worthless on anything that could be a legitimate threat to the mana" is 100% hogwash, man.  Before this nerf, Manas would shred every single thing with no challenge.  If you watched your stam, you were basically good at any time to burst away and dismount for rapid stam regen (regenerate 5000 stamina in ~3-4 seconds of being dismounted).  At that point you are back to being untouchable.  I have easily killed wild non-corrupt Gigas with them, again, before this most recent nerf.  Gigas, you know, the 80,000 base hitpoint creature that eats stone and is one of the fastest moving land dinos when wild due to infinite-stam-sprinting?  They are a threat to literally everything in one-on-one combat, but not the Mana before this nerf.  Other than a different hostile Mana, there wasn't anything that presented a threat (of any kind) to the Managarmr.

About the Apex argument:  MEKs don't really qualify as an Apex creature because they aren't found in the wild.  To be clearer about the definition of "Apex", "Apex" doesn't mean "does a lot of damage."  "Apex" is a reference to where something lies in a food chain and about natural predation, in their natural state.  MEKs are constructed so they do not have a "natural state," but in their natural state Gigas and Mosas are Apex creatures.  When wild, they aren't attacked by anything, thus they are not prey to any of the creatures on the ARK.  When tamed (removed from their natural environment), they can no longer qualify as an "Apex" creature simply because they are capable of doing a lot of damage (if this was the case, a level 450 Stego would be considered an "Apex" creature above a level 25 Rex by virtue of having grossly higher stats).  I see your point!  But the qualifier of "Apex" or "not Apex" is about when the creature is in the wild, in its "natural" habitat (or as close as it gets, this is ARK), and not at all when it is tamed.  If this is not true, either one of these two situations is the truth:

1.  Everything on the ARK is an Apex creature when tamed because wild Dinos will always have hostility toward domesticated Dinos, evidenced by the fact that wild Pegomastax even attack domesticated Gigas.

2.  Nothing on the ARK is an Apex creature because wild Dinos will always have hostility toward domesticated Dinos so in this case, wild Pegomastax bumps domesticated Gigas as an Apex creature based on predator/prey tier alone.

The following statement: "... its the highest lvl non boss creature added in extinction" is confusing.  Are you saying "lvl" to mean "where it falls on the predatory tiers?  Or "lvl" as in 5 - 150?  And also, I said they aren't Apex, they were "badly designed" to reference the myriad of changes to the creature since its release (see the original post on Page 1).  That isn't my opinion, that is now fact irrefutably supported by again, the myriad of changes to the creature since its release.  Also, you've never tamed one?  Dude.  You've missed out.  They are now clunky to fly when you burst at an angle above the horizontal plane, but they still get around really quickly.  My tribemate still kills Corrupt Gigas with hers, it just takes longer now and is trickier/has way less margin for error (even with the nerfs).

So, there's a stronger argument for ya Oni!

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3 hours ago, Onimusha759 said:

Speaking of balance, if everything is op, then nefing any of them actually unbalances the game.  Then theres also the progression fact that some dinos are supposed to be better, why do you think a rex saddle is at lvl 74 but a raptors at 18(i think, its around there).  Obviously the developers think the rex is a better dino and more op then a raptor.  Now we have to facter most endgame creatures are op compared to the majority of the creatures because they are the final reward.  So the game is purposely designed to be unbalanced in the fact that most creatures are just stepping stones, truly its no different then the weapons and armor though i dont see anyone crying that hide is worthless compared to flak or that pump action shotty is creaming that noobs revolver...Because progression wise its supposed to, realisticly if you took any of these creatures irl and did 1v1 fights there isnt gonna be a balance, 1s gonna kick the other 1s azz and thats it, just like how an assualt rifle is gonna own a single action old school round bullet revolver.  So if we do nerf everything to completely balance the game we create a big problem, nothing is special so theres no diversity between anything which would destroy progression and a huge portion of the appeal of the game.  Progression system is shot and thered be no point in upgrading because there is no upgrade.  The reward for your time and effort is gone.  Youd have to nerf harvesting abilities to balance out all of the harvest dinos if your truly gonna focus solely on balance.  The fact the devs have a lvl progression shows some things are supposed to be superior, its also a survival game, part of surviving is dealing with apex predators which arnt gonna be apex if they arnt better then the rest.  Personal opinion, it seems the mana was supposed to be the dragon of this dlc.  It should be on par with them, then considering you can get wyverns for free, i feel like the dragon i paid real money for should be better.  Then finally, the fact extinction is the endgame, you label anything endgame and its expected to be the best of whatever it is.  So the extinction tames should be the most impressive 1s for whatever category theyre in.  Id say the voleno(Sry if thats misspelled) is the best raptor bary lvl tame because its a walking machine gun.  Gasbags own the ptera for beginner flier/air scout.  Owl kinda beats out argy too.  So why the heck isnt the mana being allowed to out perform a wyvern?

In terms of progression the Mana is a 30 min tame, that can be obtained by a naked beach bob. It is about as hard to get an argy. It is not an end game tame. How is Extinction endgame when you don't have to complete other maps to get there. You can just spawn there day 1, and it is way easier than say Abberation.

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Guest BubbaCrawfish
32 minutes ago, covenantgrunt said:

In terms of progression the Mana is a 30 min tame, that can be obtained by a naked beach bob. It is about as hard to get an argy. It is not an end game tame. How is Extinction endgame when you don't have to complete other maps to get there. You can just spawn there day 1, and it is way easier than say Abberation.

Level 66 saddle says it's not a naked beach bob tame...

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On 4/16/2019 at 3:21 AM, Voltarendolo said:

Honestly still not enough nerved

They need even more Nerf there is still no way to kill a Mana if you dont have a Mana by yourself (it should not be that the only counter to a creature is the creature it self) thats not how counter works

Allso they are by far the most Reliable way of the Dragons (Wyvern Rock Drake Managarmr) you can raptoring breed them.... just make them like a one time use Creature like RockDrake and Wyvern and make them a nasty passive tame or any new kind of Way to tame them (as long as they are faster then a Gallilimus and still are this "Strong" (Freeze ist still a death sentence, good health, decent Damage, raptoring distanz attack, and this insane Mobility.

Worst design that Wildcard ever did for PVP (if you remembere time before Flyernerv  Pteranodons only.... now managarmr only as soon as you are fast and do Damage thats just breaks the game

I have 5k+ houers in ARK all on PVP server and this things are jusst horrible (I didnt buy Extinction "the pay to win" DLC content)

I really love this game BUT I get why many People start to hate Wildcard

You like many others are blinded by the pvp vs balance. They should restore the mana, then just remove it from the pvp environment, as pve players were satisfied with the mana as is. But as usual the selfish pvp crowd whines and cries and gets the nerf at the expense of pve players. That is why as the OP stated pve, and pvp should be separate. So pve gets punished for pve players not liking something. You are way off topic. He was not calling for a total un nerd he was calling for a pve unnerf, as in pve people breed them for fun, and they are totally separate environments. The global nerfs have got to stop, as pvp players ruin the game for pve players, who do not agree with your wines for nerds. The mana was fine for pve, the freeze should have been left alone the flight should have been left alone. They should not have made them paperweights. In the wild they are now able to fly so much better that a trained.

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Ill tell you when they have nerfed it enough, when they cant land right next to you and hold down one button to insta kill* you and your tame.

It destroys pvp and has to be nerfed to hell or go.

I dont want to have to just ride manas non stop as the only choice to fairly compete.  Id like to alsp pvp with the other 9383737 tames.

Manas break the game.  Fix it please.

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On 4/15/2019 at 6:00 PM, Demerus said:

Can we please get PVP and PVE nerfs/balancing separate?

This^^^ times infinity, and beyond.


I play pure PvE. ALL of the changes that Demerus listed, was not needed in PvE imo.

Most, if not all the nerfs to tames stats have hurt my enjoyment of PvE, like so many nerfs in the past have done.

Also, many nerfs were not given an opt-out option for unofficial/singleplayer in the configs.

Why cant these nerfs be separated?
How can these changes be separated?
Why are these changes not separated?

Blizzard figured it out.
I wish Wildcard would too.

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I have an idea for the PvP side of things...
Instead of a nerf (which also affects the PvE crowd), how about a tribe-crafted damage reflect, to defend against ice breath?

It's not impossible to program from what I have seen, there's dinos out there that already reflect damage, but I am imagining a craftable thing that tribes and tames could apply to themselves.

 

I dont play PvP Ark, but from all that I have seen, defensive options for you PvP folk need a huge upgrade (whatever is the term for the opposite of nerf?), and need far more defensive options than you currently have.

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I was one of those who invested days and days improving the genetics of Manas, for what? They took my time and effort and just threw it in the trash. I spent some time in taming grifins looking for the best stats and what they did with the grifins, they reduced it to almost zero, so they did with a lot of dinos, citing another example of the Dung Beetle today without any use because of Snow Owl pellet . Unfortunately the toilet has to mature and much of its development their policy is to replace and not complement. I love this game, I play three years and I have 8k hours and separate pvp from pve not only in the sense of nerfs / balancing and an attitude (retroactive) that should have been taken a long time.
Please do not tell me about survival I spend more time and effort surviving bugs (since Early Access) than the difficulty of the game.

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On 4/24/2019 at 2:45 AM, BubbaCrawfish said:

Level 66 saddle says it's not a naked beach bob tame...

Level 66 is a 20 min note run.

You can get Manas within hours of starting totally fresh on official servers. Try doing that with a reaper...even for veteran ark pvp players it's almost weeks of work before they are ready to get a reaper.

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On 4/24/2019 at 7:13 PM, Eoptap said:

You like many others are blinded by the pvp vs balance. They should restore the mana, then just remove it from the pvp environment, as pve players were satisfied with the mana as is. But as usual the selfish pvp crowd whines and cries and gets the nerf at the expense of pve players. That is why as the OP stated pve, and pvp should be separate. So pve gets punished for pve players not liking something. You are way off topic. He was not calling for a total un nerd he was calling for a pve unnerf, as in pve people breed them for fun, and they are totally separate environments. The global nerfs have got to stop, as pvp players ruin the game for pve players, who do not agree with your wines for nerds. The mana was fine for pve, the freeze should have been left alone the flight should have been left alone. They should not have made them paperweights. In the wild they are now able to fly so much better that a trained.

The Reason why PVP players need this kind of Balances (and need them fast) there are tousands of houers wasted by this thing... When Official Players come home in the evening and everything is gone becouse a "Troll" Killed all your Dinos from far away the Impact is much bigger than on PVE (but even on PVE does it make fun for you to have a all purpose mount?) While yoour Bear and Raptor and Rex and and and just stand in the Box never get touched again?

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Guest BubbaCrawfish
2 hours ago, covenantgrunt said:

Level 66 is a 20 min note run.

You can get Manas within hours of starting totally fresh on official servers. Try doing that with a reaper...even for veteran ark pvp players it's almost weeks of work before they are ready to get a reaper.

And comparing a mana to a reaper now with the nerf, is completely on the same level... /s...... lol

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On 4/17/2019 at 3:40 AM, Demerus said:

This is the new effective DMG range (red line) which is useless because once the beam revs up your target is already hitting you and makes the mana flinch and stop attacking.

The max range is the entire length of the mana from head to tip of tail.

If what you are hitting is anywhere outside that range you wont be doing any dmg to it.

W4tBHeo.png

 

So I'll ask the PVP crowd. 

ARE YOU HAPPY YET?

Still not completly but it is on the right way.

You like to have a one purpose mount for everything in PVE? Why playing ark you have over 100 Creatures and only wanna use 1 becouse its convinient? where is the Fun?

I am PVP player by heart and I love to use many Diffrent Creatures in PVP. (but as soon as it is FAST and does a lot of DPS it will break PVP (unless Glasscannons)
you wanna have 1 Creature for nearly everything?

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8 hours ago, BubbaCrawfish said:

And comparing a mana to a reaper now with the nerf, is completely on the same level... /s...... lol

The Mana at moment is still way stronger, faster and easier tame than a rock Drake. It can kill anything a rex can. I am not seeing how it is useless after nerf. For how easy it is to get, and how strong it is,the Mana is still extremely overpowered on PVE.

Unless you believe that a dino that is about as easy to get as an Argy should be more powerful than dinos that are  far harder to get, the Mana is fine.

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On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 3:04 AM, cocob1 said:

Youre fine with manas in PvE cause all you do is build pretty little bases and raise pink dinos, you dont have to put up with their ridiculiously OP ice breath freezing you every 30 seconds in every single pvp fight. PvE players really cannot comment on the mana if you dont have to deal with it on a daily basis imo

What a moronic post. You're an idiot

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