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On Managarmrs and where their design went wrong


covenantgrunt

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Was watching the dev stream video again on youtube and I found what the team said about the managarmr interesting. They managarmr is the endgame tame for Extinction that is why its so powerful. That kind of makes sense !

The problem is of course the fact that the statement has connection to actual reality. The managarmr is one of easiest dinos to obtain, and you could get one as a low level naked beach bob. And it can be mass produced in huge numbers and pretty much everyone has them.

The Reaper King from Aberration is a better example of a powerful, endgame tame. It is one of  hardest tames in the game to obtain and requires you to truly master Aberration. The Reaper is rightfully powerful and also more importantly a rare sight. It can not be easily mass produced as it is not breedable.  A high level, imprinted Reaper was signature mount of a very veteran ARK player and carried a certain amount of prestige. On PvP servers  skilled Reaper riders turned tides of many battles and created a legendary reputation for this beast from depths of Aberration. Unlike the mana that could be raised anywhere, back in the day the reaper had a strong connection to Aberration and meant something to  tribes and players that called Aberration their home.

Manas...could have been the new Reaper and it would been amazing if it were so. Managarmrs are a beautiful creature and I do wanna love them more. If Manas were truly an endgame dino, a reward for mastering the final ARK map, then they would not get as much hate from the PvP community. Manas being OP is not the real problem, its that they way too common and easy to get for an "endgame" creature.

The genie is out of the bottle now and it is too late to change how easily manas are tamed and breedable. But it is worth remembering where it went wrong.

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The problems with manas are manifold. You rightfully name a few of them in there (easily tamed + breedable), but these are only problematic in combination with the fact that they outclass every other mount in the game, hands-down.  In an ark-world full of nerfed flyers, saddleless/unbreedable wyverns and reapers, we don't need a saddled, breedable, easily-tamed, fast-swimming, huge-stamina, high-damage, long-range, unbelievably fast rocketship. We just don't need them. They make all of the rest of Ark's content pointless.

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And you're right. If they nerf them too hard, they won't be used ever. Right now Managarmrs are the staple of ARK pvp and that's that. They are way more useable and don't completely outclass every flyer when a server is running Classic Flyers, but that's a mod. In vanilla ARK as of now, they are currently meta. Either they are going to need another rebalance or they are going to have to start buffing various dinos. I mean, It needs a hard counter, bad. But WC clearly doesn't understand how to do it.

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10 minutes ago, Oalka said:

The problems with manas are manifold. You rightfully name a few of them in there (easily tamed + breedable), but these are only problematic in combination with the fact that they outclass every other mount in the game, hands-down.  In an ark-world full of nerfed flyers, saddleless/unbreedable wyverns and reapers, we don't need a saddled, breedable, easily-tamed, fast-swimming, huge-stamina, high-damage, long-range, unbelievably fast rocketship. We just don't need them. They make all of the rest of Ark's content pointless.

Indeed. If the mana is not an endgame tame, but an easily tamed and  breedable creature it needs to be balanced accordingly. In my opinion it ought to be a cheaper, weaker version of the Wyvern and Rock Drake to compensate for fact that it is easy to tame and breed. Having some abilities of both, but not strong enough to overpower either in their native domain. A mana should lose to a rock drake in Abberation, and certainly lose in aerial combat with a wyvern in skies of Ragnarok.

 

10 minutes ago, Level4Gaming said:

And you're right. If they nerf them too hard, they won't be used ever. Right now Managarmrs are the staple of ARK pvp and that's that. They are way more useable and don't completely outclass every flyer when a server is running Classic Flyers, but that's a mod. In vanilla ARK as of now, they are currently meta. Either they are going to need another rebalance or they are going to have to start buffing various dinos. I mean, It needs a hard counter, bad. But WC clearly doesn't understand how to do it.

There used to be a hard counter, dino leashes would block the breath. I think they should bring it back, it created a nice synergy like how light pets would counter reapers.

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42 minutes ago, covenantgrunt said:

Indeed. If the mana is not an endgame tame, but an easily tamed and  breedable creature it needs to be balanced accordingly. In my opinion it ought to be a cheaper, weaker version of the Wyvern and Rock Drake to compensate for fact that it is easy to tame and breed. Having some abilities of both, but not strong enough to overpower either in their native domain. A mana should lose to a rock drake in Abberation, and certainly lose in aerial combat with a wyvern in skies of Ragnarok.

 

There used to be a hard counter, dino leashes would block the breath. I think they should bring it back, it created a nice synergy like how light pets would counter reapers.

It was an unintended mechanic. Why not give the Phoenix a counter to it? It would incentivize taming them much more (eg. phoenix is immune to being frozen)
I also agree. Something needs to be added to the Wyvern or Rock Drake to make them counter the Managarmr. Then you'd see them used more often. Why not add the Tek saddle for the wyvern btw? It's a nice idea.

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3 minutes ago, Level4Gaming said:

It was an unintended mechanic. Why not give the Phoenix a counter to it? It would incentivize taming them much more (eg. phoenix is immune to being frozen)
I also agree. Something needs to be added to the Wyvern or Rock Drake to make them counter the Managarmr. Then you'd see them used more often. Why not add the Tek saddle for the wyvern btw? It's a nice idea.

I actually like that idea about Phoenix. Also makes going to SE relevent again! 

 

Something about the hot flames counter the rider from being knocked off

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Just now, d1nk said:

I actually like that idea about Phoenix. Also makes going to SE relevent again! 

 

Something about the hot flames counter the rider from being knocked off

I suggested this as well a while ago. I mean, it makes sense, right? I also suggested a rework of the dash for the Managarmr;
Reduce the speed to be only slightly faster than the Phoenix, but make it so holding mouse 1 can sustain it for longer, with exponentially increasing stamina usage. Maybe it'd be too good, but I also think it should be able to narrowly turn mid-air while doing this... That would make it much better for PVE.
I also think the ice breath is in a much better position than it used to be, but it's always just extreme buff, extreme nerf. Why can't WC get more creative with reworks or nerfs?

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Mana's are still broken AF.   I bet every single small tribes server has 2 to 3 mana griefers on it now,  running ESP hacks.   It's made every other pvp dino pointless. Its the fastest thing in the game, and its freeze / dismount means first shot wins-   the ultimate griefer tool.   Add a bit of pay to win ESP hack, and its just a grief fest.  real pvp is dead.

RE BALANCE the mana's please!!  (again).   limit their range,  increase timer between freezes , make it use poop tons of stam to freeze..Make it unable to freeze large dinos.   SOMETHING to put relevance   to the rest of the game mechanics.    There is NO other dino that can hang 1 on 1 in any situation with a decent mana right now.   Fix it already.  

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5 hours ago, Level4Gaming said:

It was an unintended mechanic. Why not give the Phoenix a counter to it? It would incentivize taming them much more (eg. phoenix is immune to being frozen)
I also agree. Something needs to be added to the Wyvern or Rock Drake to make them counter the Managarmr. Then you'd see them used more often. Why not add the Tek saddle for the wyvern btw? It's a nice idea.

I do like the phoenix being a natural predator to the mana but I don't think it should be the only hard counter. Reason is phoenix is pretty hard to tame, is not breedable or clonable far as I know.

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