kibble rework Fixing the kibble system

[Onimusha759]

18 minutes ago, Xenithar said:

I tried this. I took the hesperornis hunting and after five fish I brought it to land. It walked around, looked cute, and didn't do jack. Tried at ten fish, same deal. However, at 25 it laid an egg. A normal one, sadly. Again, I want a video of this mythical being he has which lays golden eggs every few fish. That would totally balance it better!

Im not on official so there are jacked egg rates.  I was uncertain it would effect the hesp tho since its a completely dif mechanic.  I figured it would effect the normal no fish involved egg laying of the hesp but not the fish 1.   still vry odd it lays basically guaranteed on the 4th egg for me.  Sadly no matter what i do i cant post vids or pics because im on ps4 and the forums arnt compatible with ps4 browser to attch files.  I dont think its the files but the sucky ps4 browser.  Since im on console obviously i have no mods.  Well TY for helping me test the effect on hesp golden eggs tho.

I agree with all of u that it being the only option for island and center is a raw deal.  Its even worse that the beasts the kibble tames r so not worth the effort of it.  The only 1 that really belongs on that list is the rock golem.  So id like these changes u guys r suggesting, im not arguing against it, im just saying it is possible to get these eggs tho its an insanely stupid grind.  But when u look at how u have to mutate for months to legitimately get a boss slaying team it doesnt really surprise me nor is it out of pattern for ark.  I agree with u that i probably wouldnt do the gold egg either.  Heck even with my rates id probably not feel like doing it again.

[Eldar Seer]

Yeah, I reran the Thyla numbers. I do not like what I got. Assuming normal rates, with 15 kibble to tame a 150 and one out of three eggs laid will be golden... You end up having to feed the goose 1125 fish to obtain 15 kibble. With one out of four eggs being golden, that skyrockets to 1500 fish for 15 kibble. 

[Onimusha759]

48 minutes ago, Eldar Seer said:

Yeah, I reran the Thyla numbers. I do not like what I got. Assuming normal rates, with 15 kibble to tame a 150 and one out of three eggs laid will be golden... You end up having to feed the goose 1125 fish to obtain 15 kibble. With one out of four eggs being golden, that skyrockets to 1500 fish for 15 kibble. 

That kibble teir needs to b completely redone.  The method of making it and the creatures it tames just fail miserably in both ways.  We need giga mosa quetz golem and mayb something from extinction(mana?) to even make the effort worth it.  Best kibble should tame the best dinos(Ok i know the quetz is a joke but its SUPPOSE to b the best bird).  I suppose u could swap the quetz with a yuty because wc acts lik the yuty is a supreme tame.

[Gabriel388]

11 hours ago, Zahlea said:

I'd say this is a sign it's unbalanced and really could use another thinking through.

Yeah, that's not feasible... say it takes 8 minutes to lay an egg and let's say you get a golden egg every third egg (which is being very optimistic), that's 24 minutes on average to get a golden egg. You can get lucky and get it quicker or unlucky and it takes longer. A lvl 150 Yuty takes 39 kibble, which would then be on average 936 minutes or a little over 15,5 hours to get enough golden eggs to get that kibble with one bird. And that's if you can even get enough fish to sustain that! Add to this the non stacking and short spoil time of the golden egg... To summarise it - for me it all adds up to not worth it.

 

5 hours ago, Eldar Seer said:

Yeah, I reran the Thyla numbers. I do not like what I got. Assuming normal rates, with 15 kibble to tame a 150 and one out of three eggs laid will be golden... You end up having to feed the goose 1125 fish to obtain 15 kibble. With one out of four eggs being golden, that skyrockets to 1500 fish for 15 kibble. 

From a hunter's perspective in terms of gameplay. 

So let's say I tame this bird. I would not use this bird like this and doing this kind of calculations. I would let the bird catch a few fish. The amount of fish I would let it hunt would be based on how much storage I have for the raw fish meat, the fish that the bird hunts turns into in the bird's inventory. A hunter don't waste meat. So if I have no storage for the raw fish meat, I would not let the bird hunt the fish.

So in another words, the golden eggs I would not be aiming for. They are more like a by-product of the bird hunting the fishes. So the golden eggs would be produced after letting this bird hunt fishes over the course of months to years of surviving in Ark.

It's like the tale of the goose laying the golden eggs. You have to be patient to get golden eggs.

Based on how I play, I think the extraordinary kibble will be used in a secondary manner to supplement another taming food when taming the dinosaur in the extraordinary kibble tier.

[CptChandler]

Give us back the old kibble system. The new one is just bad. 

[Zahlea]

3 hours ago, Gabriel388 said:

From a hunter's perspective in terms of gameplay. 

So let's say I tame this bird. I would not use this bird like this and doing this kind of calculations. I would let the bird catch a few fish. The amount of fish I would let it hunt would be based on how much storage I have for the raw fish meat, the fish that the bird hunts turns into in the bird's inventory. A hunter don't waste meat. So if I have no storage for the raw fish meat, I would not let the bird hunt the fish.

 So in another words, the golden eggs I would not be aiming for. They are more like a by-product of the bird hunting the fishes. So the golden eggs would be produced after letting this bird hunt fishes over the course of months to years of surviving in Ark.

It's like the tale of the goose laying the golden eggs. You have to be patient to get golden eggs.

Based on how I play, I think the extraordinary kibble will be used in a secondary manner to supplement another taming food when taming the dinosaur in the extraordinary kibble tier.

You have a point, but as you say it's from a hunter's perspective. From a breeder/tamer's perspective, what you do is take out the bird with the sole purpose of getting an egg (though any fish meat obtained could be used to feed other dinos, of course, but this is not an objective, just a side effect). I really get the point of golden eggs being hard to obtain as in the myth, I just don't agree with that being the only method of obtaining the top tier kibble for The Island or The Center.

Also, the extraordinary kibble is required for taming certain creatures, which is why it's not optional. I don't know about imprinting, but there's a risk it may be asked for when imprinting as well, even for low dinos  

2 hours ago, CptChandler said:

Give us back the old kibble system. The new one is just bad. 

Fair point. Unfortunately, I'm certain that's not an option  So I'm looking to see what changes can be made to the current one in order to make it decent enough  

[Eldar Seer]

Just a thought, but has anyone tried to buff the goose using an oviraptor while it is fishing? It might change the calcs if there is a noticeable impact. Still not going to be good, but if there a similar effect to what @Onimusha759observed with boosted server lay rates, it may be worth a shot.

[Onimusha759]

3 hours ago, Eldar Seer said:

Just a thought, but has anyone tried to buff the goose using an oviraptor while it is fishing? It might change the calcs if there is a noticeable impact. Still not going to be good, but if there a similar effect to what @Onimusha759observed with boosted server lay rates, it may be worth a shot.

If it worked it would effectively half the fish needed.

Ok so a raft with a lookout perch, ovi on the raft and weighted down with stone(set to wander), hesp in river and u order it to kill as u follow it with raft to keep the buff

[Eldar Seer]

On 3/9/2019 at 2:38 PM, Onimusha759 said:

If it worked it would effectively half the fish needed.

Ok so a raft with a lookout perch, ovi on the raft and weighted down with stone(set to wander), hesp in river and u order it to kill as u follow it with raft to keep the buff

I mean, it would effectively halve it. You're still looking at somewhere in the vicinity for 750 fish per 15 kibble if it does work, however.  Assuming it stacks with the boost to fishing lay rate you saw with server boosted lay rate, that brings it into "viable on boosted rate servers" territory past a certain server lay rate. On officials... not so much. If Hesperonrnis were guaranteed to lay the golden egg, however, it would cut it down to approximately 187 fish per 15 kibble. It's something approaching viability. 

[Zahlea]

6 minutes ago, Eldar Seer said:

I mean, it would effectively halve it. You're still looking at somewhere in the vicinity for 750 fish per 15 kibble if it does work, however.  Assuming it stacks with the boost to fishing lay rate you saw with server boosted lay rate, that brings it into "viable on boosted rate servers" territory past a certain server lay rate. On officials... not so much. If Hesperonrnis were guaranteed to lay the golden egg, however, it would cut it down to approximately 187 fish per 15 kibble. It's something approaching viability. 

The key word here being "approaching". I agree it's still not good... but of course a huge improvement over the current situation  I agree with the idea that a golden egg should be rare, like in the tale of the golden goose (but not married to the idea either), but in that case we desperately need another way of creating extraordinary kibble.

I would go as far as to say - Hesperonis in it's current state (and any state not incredibly improved) doesn't belong in the kibble tree whatsoever. Let the egg be rare and a special treat (heck, it could even be buffed to be better than it is) and give us a different option (or multiple) for creating extraordinary kibble.

[Zoglet]

I'm also nowhere near advanced enough to comment fully on all the proposed changes but have also noticed from separate research that exceptional kibble is unnecessarily difficult if you are on the Island map. I have one Thylo and was planning on capturing a mate and then saw I need exceptional kibble. Then checking the recipe I need a golden hesperonis egg? I have tamed two hesperonis and in the last maybe two weeks of gameplay got one egg out of them. Sorry, now I need to put them into a location where they can catch and eat 25 fish before laying an egg which 'might' be a golden one or not? So the game has become me watching a hesperonis 24/7 just in case maybe when it lays an egg it might be a golden one?

So this is simplifying the kibble tree?

I get it. Exceptional means exceptional. It shouldn't be easy. But erm. It also shouldn't be so ridiculously implausible as to render it not an option. Oh but I can change servers? What if I only play on one server? I now need to build up my character and strength on another server in order to produce a resource I need on this one? This doesn't make any sense.

Each map needs to have at least one reasonably achievable means to craft all kibble types. And by reasonable I mean one that can be achieved by any player (MP or Solo)  given a reasonable amount of investment of effort.

[Onimusha759]

And ill say it again, the  creatures the exceptional kibble tames r exceptionally unexceptional.  Griffin, thyla, and megalania do not belong in this teir.  I can understand a lil challenge for the kibble if it actually tamed something that was worth a darn.  On the island the only thing that MIGHT fit here is the yuty.  Do u guys think it should change?

[Zahlea]

Hmmm, just to be clear - @Zoglet and @Onimusha759, you both mean "Extraordinary" Kibble, right? And not "Exceptional"? I really don't mean to be superior - I, too, find the names unnecessarily similar and confusing. The three top ones could be ranked either way, the two bottom one the same. The only name that I could place in relation to the others is Regular (and even that could be confused with Basic).

[123MadMane]

On 3/6/2019 at 5:48 PM, Xenithar said:

And this is the problem. I don't give a flying crap if you have a hard time in single because for one, the tame cap is ENTIRELY YOU. Tame EVERYTHING. Oh, and the fact that Ark was designed to be multiplayer. Single player was thrown in and later tweaked to be easy mode. What has just happened has completely destroyed multiplayer. I don't care if somebody who buys what is almost a damn MMO can play alone. While you're at it, why not run a private WoW server and then moan about how hard it is solo. You know, because 40-man raids and all.

RIGHT, people like this are annoying they choose to play solo than get pissy about how hard it is if you don't like big tribes play small tribes.

[Onimusha759]

1 hour ago, Zahlea said:

Hmmm, just to be clear - @Zoglet and @Onimusha759, you both mean "Extraordinary" Kibble, right? And not "Exceptional"? I really don't mean to be superior - I, too, find the names unnecessarily similar and confusing. The three top ones could be ranked either way, the two bottom one the same. The only name that I could place in relation to the others is Regular (and even that could be confused with Basic).

Yes ur right zahlea lol.  Ima just say ascendant kibble lol.  U all notice they follow the item grade colors

[AngrySaltire]

1 hour ago, Zahlea said:

Hmmm, just to be clear - @Zoglet and @Onimusha759, you both mean "Extraordinary" Kibble, right? And not "Exceptional"? I really don't mean to be superior - I, too, find the names unnecessarily similar and confusing. The three top ones could be ranked either way, the two bottom one the same. The only name that I could place in relation to the others is Regular (and even that could be confused with Basic).

I really wish they chose a better naming scheme for the kibble rework...

[HairyNevus]

They need to fix the taming for hesperornis (and otter) if it's gonna be this important of a tame. The hitbox to feed them fish is too small, so you end up dropping the fish, then the loon aggros to you when you grab its food away and becomes even harder to feed the fish to. Also, since many people probably bring them back to base where it's safe to tame, if the loon actually gets a peck in, then your own dinos might kill it. So you have to build a loon trap, near where they spawn, but every map has their spawn range spread out over like 100km. 

I may be one of the few people who actually made kentro kibble to tame yutys. I did it exactly twice, first just to say I did, and second after they announced this kibble rework because I wanted to document it this time for bragging rights. The way they first announced the rework, I thought no one was going to know what a pain getting golden egg had ever been , and we were taming a bunch of boas for the server's kibble farm for Extraordinary/cyan kibble.  Then, of course, WC f*cked us. At least I got a yuty with 378.9 MD the second time.

Boas should be back in the Extraordinary slot, and I think troodon kibble should be as well. Who tf tames those things by sacrificing high level dinos (besides me)? They have got to be at least Superior/purple or Exceptional/yellow. 

[HairyNevus]

On 3/8/2019 at 2:36 PM, Xenithar said:

You're either on a server with jacked up rates, a mod, or something else. This is not official, and if you say it, video or ti did not happen. As is clearly stated, It takes 25 fish to lay a single egg and that egg may or may not be golden. Again, if you are on official and pulling this crap off and getting golden eggs that fast, I call some kind of exploit. I have hesperornises at my personal cabin and none of them lay eggs every five times. That is a load of horse-poo.

Wrong. I play on Official, and as I said, I've made many kentro kibbles before. Every 5 fish that the hesperornis kills AND eats, it will lay an egg on the shore once you bring it back. Every 5 eggs is golden. Like clockwork, every damn time. I tried everything to boost that rate, feeding it a golden egg to see if it would lay more while under the spell of its buff. Would only go after large salmon, thinking it had something to do with fish quality. No, just any 5 it dive kills AND eats will turn into 1 egg.

[Onimusha759]

29 minutes ago, HairyNevus said:

Wrong. I play on Official, and as I said, I've made many kentro kibbles before. Every 5 fish that the hesperornis kills AND eats, it will lay an egg on the shore once you bring it back. Every 5 eggs is golden. Like clockwork, every damn time. I tried everything to boost that rate, feeding it a golden egg to see if it would lay more while under the spell of its buff. Would only go after large salmon, thinking it had something to do with fish quality. No, just any 5 it dive kills AND eats will turn into 1 egg.

Mine does the same thing, tho its evry 4th lay.  I think, i kinda went coma from boredom when i was doing it so i may hav done an extra set without realizing.

[Zahlea]

18 hours ago, HairyNevus said:

Wrong. I play on Official, and as I said, I've made many kentro kibbles before. Every 5 fish that the hesperornis kills AND eats, it will lay an egg on the shore once you bring it back. Every 5 eggs is golden. Like clockwork, every damn time. I tried everything to boost that rate, feeding it a golden egg to see if it would lay more while under the spell of its buff. Would only go after large salmon, thinking it had something to do with fish quality. No, just any 5 it dive kills AND eats will turn into 1 egg.

Thank you for this. Very interesting. That would make the golden egg chance about 20% then? Obviously the wiki can be wrong about the 25 eggs, but I haven't seen that large a difference. Then again, it's such a pain, I haven't really done it much, not to mention tested it. I'll definitely do that for sure.

However, even with tha

If I go by @Gabriel388 's recount, 25 fish were eaten in about 8 minutes. If I divide that by 5 (which is 1 minute and 36 seconds) I can round that up to 2 minutes for 5 fish which includes the round trip back to shore after every 5 fish (and that's a low count). On average, there is a golden egg every 5 eggs, so 10 minutes on average to get a golden egg. Still, to get enough kibble for a lvl 150 Yuty which takes 39 kibble, that's 6.5 hours. A lot better but not anywhere near a number I would touch. Because it's not just about the time spent, it's that you have to babysit the bird the whole time. And this is not even taking into consideration that you have to find that many fish, which would make the total time a lot higher  

One egg every 10 minutes is not too bad, definitely, but me not being able to do anything else for those 10 minutes, being bored, just grinding, nah, not worth it. At all.

[Onimusha759]

Just for the record i was sayiung the exact same thing as hairynevus, every1 wanted to fight me tho.

[Gabriel388]

On 3/12/2019 at 7:10 AM, HairyNevus said:

Wrong. I play on Official, and as I said, I've made many kentro kibbles before. Every 5 fish that the hesperornis kills AND eats, it will lay an egg on the shore once you bring it back. Every 5 eggs is golden. Like clockwork, every damn time. I tried everything to boost that rate, feeding it a golden egg to see if it would lay more while under the spell of its buff. Would only go after large salmon, thinking it had something to do with fish quality. No, just any 5 it dive kills AND eats will turn into 1 egg.

 

10 hours ago, Zahlea said:

Thank you for this. Very interesting. That would make the golden egg chance about 20% then? Obviously the wiki can be wrong about the 25 eggs, but I haven't seen that large a difference. Then again, it's such a pain, I haven't really done it much, not to mention tested it. I'll definitely do that for sure.

However, even with tha

If I go by @Gabriel388 's recount, 25 fish were eaten in about 8 minutes. If I divide that by 5 (which is 1 minute and 36 seconds) I can round that up to 2 minutes for 5 fish which includes the round trip back to shore after every 5 fish (and that's a low count). On average, there is a golden egg every 5 eggs, so 10 minutes on average to get a golden egg. Still, to get enough kibble for a lvl 150 Yuty which takes 39 kibble, that's 6.5 hours. A lot better but not anywhere near a number I would touch. Because it's not just about the time spent, it's that you have to babysit the bird the whole time. And this is not even taking into consideration that you have to find that many fish, which would make the total time a lot higher  

One egg every 10 minutes is not too bad, definitely, but me not being able to do anything else for those 10 minutes, being bored, just grinding, nah, not worth it. At all.

 

7 hours ago, Onimusha759 said:

Just for the record i was sayiung the exact same thing as hairynevus, every1 wanted to fight me tho.

So I went and found another video that was made recently. I think it is single player. Every 5 fish, the bird was laying an egg on the Island. You have to bring the bird out of the water. On average a golden egg is produced every 5th egg. So the player basically kills the fish for the bird. Apparently it can be dangerous for the bird to hunt mega piranhas. I would think the difficult part would be to find the fishes for the bird and keeping the bird alive when you get ambushed because it can get dangerous really fast when you are swimming around in the river or lake or ocean hunting for fish because that's all you are trying to do. 

[Zahlea]

11 hours ago, Onimusha759 said:

Just for the record i was sayiung the exact same thing as hairynevus, every1 wanted to fight me tho.

I know ❤️ I wasn't trying to fight you, I just wasn't sure of what you were saying  

Even if it's possible to get around it, the best case (haven't seen any better scenarios than @Onimusha759 's and @HairyNevus's) is not good enough

[Zahlea]

Since there are more posts just outlining how bad the kibble rework is and I don't want to write a duplicate of this, I'll just bump it...

Let's direct all that energy into specific changes that would make it better, shall we?  What few changes would make the most positive difference to the kibble system as it is?

[Onimusha759]

11 minutes ago, Zahlea said:

Since there are more posts just outlining how bad the kibble rework is and I don't want to write a duplicate of this, I'll just bump it...

Let's direct all that energy into specific changes that would make it better, shall we?  What few changes would make the most positive difference to the kibble system as it is?

Add titanboa and maybe quetz egg to the extraordinary list and move thyla and megalania to superior teir.  Replace them with giga and mosa in the extraordinary teir.  Move plesio to exceptional teir(Cmon it has a higher base dmg and hp then a rex plus its kibble used to b a rex egg).  Move the griffin to exceptional so its not anti progessive and replace it with the mana.  I feel lik the yuty doesnt really deserve the high end kibble wc keep throwing at it.  It has lil practical use outside of raids and boss battles but i fail to find anything else to put in that teir besides maybe a quetz tho it would need something to make it worthwhile again.  I suppose in a pvp standpoint the yuty would b a great base defense creature as well so i guess i can deal with him in extraordinary.  The last thing id lik to see is 1 creature in each teir that lays the next teirs egg.  That way we could progress and not hav to hav wasted tames for egg farming.  Obviously the eggs used for extraordinary dont fall into that so we exclude extraordinary from that progression.  That said the quetz egg, if the quetz wasnt moved would fit this idea, as would titanboa eggs fit the current pattern for exceptional.  I think that would make it perfect and balanced both challenge, progression, and reward wise.