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Kibble Rework Beta Feedback

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20 hours ago, Neelix1 said:

My feedback is, the whole thing is crap, and just like the cross transfer servers that wrecked fair and balanced PVP, I'll have to rent my own server (already do), and just like with the unnecessary nerf of ALL flyers to solve the problem with only 1 flyer (Pteranadon), I'll have to look forward to a "Classic Kibble mod" to undo your stupid decisions.

It isn't helpful when you complain about an issue without explaining how it's negative. Provide evidence for your claim, or else it's pointless to make it in the first place.

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Pterans take kibble from one egg size above them? Is there a reason the early game flier is being made more of a PITA to acquire than most other dinos?

It looks like most dinos take eggs from their own size class, so there isn't much of a way to progress from one size class to the next. Which is good in the sense that any egg laying dinos you want to collect will be their own kibble farm, but makes moving up the sizes harder if you're someone with limited playtime. I expected something more along the lines of, all dinos/creatures requires the eggs from one size below them, so you can work your way up the sizes. But both approaches have their upsides.

Dinos requiring eggs a size class above them though, that just make things a pain for everyone.

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Please at least include an option to keep the classic kibble tree. A major part of the game is finding and taming dinos. The fact that someone put thought into how dinos might be specialized and prefer certain food items is a feature--and should arguably be further developed instead of simplified. I understand this is a "QOL" issue for some people, but universally removing features would be a hamfisted "solution".

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1 minute ago, Hookstrat said:

Please at least include an option to keep the classic kibble tree. A major part of the game is finding and taming dinos. The fact that someone put thought into how dinos might be specialized and prefer certain food items is a feature--and should arguably be further developed instead of simplified. I understand this is a "QOL" issue for some people, but universally removing features would be a hamfisted "solution".

So, will you suddenly stop collecting every dino because it serves no purpose? Are you unable to create your own path in a sandbox game? If you want to tame multiple dinos, no one is stopping you, but at least now the devs aren’t forcing you either.

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26 minutes ago, Hookstrat said:

Please at least include an option to keep the classic kibble tree. A major part of the game is finding and taming dinos. The fact that someone put thought into how dinos might be specialized and prefer certain food items is a feature--and should arguably be further developed instead of simplified. I understand this is a "QOL" issue for some people, but universally removing features would be a hamfisted "solution".

Whatever kibble you currently have should still function for taming their respective creatures.

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42 minutes ago, SaltyMonkey said:

So, will you suddenly stop collecting every dino because it serves no purpose? Are you unable to create your own path in a sandbox game? If you want to tame multiple dinos, no one is stopping you, but at least now the devs aren’t forcing you either.

No, I probably won't stop collecting dinos, assuming of course they don't simplify the "trophy tree" and do away with the Master Zoologist Trophy. How about we just have a small, medium, and large trophy and you can choose when you deserve them? 😂 

Look, I understand your point. But I am not currently "forced" by "the devs" to "tame multiple dinos", you are projecting. I'm just a stupid PS4-user playing local PvE split screen. I think the classic kibble tree adds meaningful complexity and immersion into a core element of the gameplay.

I understand I waded onto a gaming forum, but I don't see the need to imply I lack imagination when I'm simply responding to a request for feedback on a proposed update. As a biologist, I appreciate the fact that the game designers thought about specialization of species--I don't care about your PvP raiding needs or whatever. 

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Some additional dino kibble requirements, and further feedback from me.

Medium / regular: doed, ankylo
Large / superior: argent, beaver, mammoth
Extra Large / exceptional: rex, spino, Quetz, theri, mosa, giga
Obnoxious to acquire / extraordinary: thyla, griffin

 

Keep in mind that I'm looking at this exclusively from a difficulty-to-tame perspective, and from the perspective of working up through the size classes from scratch, not alpha tribe where you already have some of everything.

1. Either beaver or mammoth should drop a size class or two. Having both pre-endgame wood farmers in the 'large' class doesn't make sense to me. The mammoth traditionally has been the early game one of the two, although I think i should be the other way around due to the difficulty in safely storing mammoths early game. The mammoth used to use small (raptor) eggs. To be consistent with its old kibble and it's intended place in the progression (lv 31 saddle), it should be small, medium at the most. Large makes no sense.

2. The 'extraordinary' class. I labelled this as 'obnoxious to acquire' above, because that's basically what this kibble is as proposed. I've no experience with the hespewhatits, but I have tamed titanoboas on official, and the mechanic didn't even work, I had to use a glitch involving wyverns to get them to tame at all. These meme taming mechanics have never worked properly. As far as I'm concerned the extraordinary class should be ditched entirely, unless some 'normally' acquired eggs are added as a possible ingredient, say quetz or something. This rework is mostly removing the obnoxiousness from kibble taming by freeing you from the need for eggs from obnoxious to tame dinos. Go from 'mostly removing' to 'completely removing'! That said, I am guessing extraordinary won't be removed on my say so, therefore:

3. Thylas should not be in this class. I understand they used to require titanoboa kibble so this is probably for consistency, but consider the thyla's place in the game, does it really warrant the 'best' kibble? It's an upgraded sabertooth, surely not a more significant tame than a giga or a mosa, which are both only 'extra large'? It seems more like a 'large' level tame, given its role.

4. Griffins used to use allo eggs. It should be using large eggs. What's the logic here? "It's magical so it needs special kibble"? Again, look at how this stacks up against other tames. I could see this being moved up to extra large as I've always kind of seen them as an end-game thing, but that might just be because I haven't played from scratch on ragnarok. Large would fit fine too as far as I can see. I don't get the exceptional on this thing.

5. While I doubt a change this substantial is on the cards, I think rejiggering the requirements so most things require eggs from a size below should be considered. Most large tribes will have a lot of some dino from each size class anyway, so it won't result in kibble farms, and will retain the ability to progress up the tree that the current system has for some dinos. The proposed "dinos eat their own size eggs" means to 'enter' a class as a tribe grows requires some "old fashioned" taming of at least two of the target size class dinos first. This isn't any harder, it's just more time consuming.

I want to stress again, the greatest thing this rework is doing (aside from it's original goal of lessening lag ofc) is removing the strict tree that forced players to tame unwanted dinos or PITA dinos to get to some dinos that they actually wanted. The exceptional kibble currently seems like a holdover of the old system; "You want that good dino? Go tame some of this useless annoying stuff first".

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To Jen and the rest of the Wildcard dev team: This change is going to completely kill Ark. Most notably PvE as well as a lot of the exploration aspect in PvP servers as well. Please hear me out.

 

An absolutely integral part of progression in Ark is in following the kibble tree. It gives a sense of progression and is a major incentive to explore the map and interact with its many species (most of which will be relegated to useless background characters after the patch). It is even moreso an important part in PvE where there is no end goal of raiding and killing other people.

There are four major things you do in PvE:

Tame
Explore
Breed
Fight bosses


The new kibble changes, as is, by and large eliminate the first two. After you've done some building and tamed some core species, all there is to do on the entire map is breed your dinosaurs and go kill the bosses.

It's clear this change is geared more towards PvP, where you constantly have to replenish your tames and egg supplies because of wars and raiding. The main attraction of the game mode of course is fighting other people and killing them, people understandably want to minimize the grind it takes just to get to that point.

The problem is this that this change is going to eliminate a massive amount of content from PvE as well as make a much less exploring-oriented experience for new PvP players. What Wildcard should  do is to simply rework the kibble tree into something more logical. To be necessarily blunt,  the current kibble tree logically pans out like it was designed by a 2nd grade student-it makes no sense at all, of course people are fed up with it.  You could make it so that a handful of dinosaurs provide kibble for the majority of species, but still keep a lot of species-specific kibbles and keep some progression that way. The solution is not reworking a core part of the game 3 years into the games release and breaking it at that.

In short, following the kibble tree and trying to tame new species is an absolutely fundamental part of the player experience in PvE, and also in PvP. PvP will atleast still have fighting and raiding, PvE will leave very little for players to do at all once they tame the species that provide all kibbles. I've seen lots of people voice this concern on various social media platforms and many predict they will quit Ark shortly after the update due to lack of content.

I really hope Wildcard reads this and instead chooses to rework the kibble tree. It might be frustrating to have to postpone an update but it will make for a far, far better game in the long run.

 

On 1/17/2019 at 12:53 PM, SaltyMonkey said:

So, will you suddenly stop collecting every dino because it serves no purpose? Are you unable to create your own path in a sandbox game? If you want to tame multiple dinos, no one is stopping you, but at least now the devs aren’t forcing you either.

Why of course! Of course people will stop collecting dinosaurs because they serve no purpose, is that even a question? As for your second question, even in sandbox games there need to be rewards and reasons to perform any kind of activity. Look at Subnautica, a sandbox game that takes place in the ocean. You can explore different biomes at your own leisure, but you do it because different biomes have different resources. There isn't a biome that's completely useless (like dozens of dinosaur species will be after the update), people don't play games for hours and hours just "for the heck of it". That's bad design. Every part of any good sandbox game contributes to something, like a tool or a resource, it's just up to you how you want to use that tool. But it can't be a tool that serves no purpose.

 

I mean look at all the tames now that don't serve a purpoes. Who ever tames a diplodocus or a female megaloceros? That's what half the animal species in Ark are going to be like after the kibble rework.

 

On 1/17/2019 at 12:41 PM, Hookstrat said:

Please at least include an option to keep the classic kibble tree. A major part of the game is finding and taming dinos. The fact that someone put thought into how dinos might be specialized and prefer certain food items is a feature--and should arguably be further developed instead of simplified. I understand this is a "QOL" issue for some people, but universally removing features would be a hamfisted "solution".

I would GREATLY appreciate this. An option to keep the classic kibble system would hurt nobody and benefit everyone-people don't care for taming/exploration can keep the new kibble system and the rest and stay with the old one. Please consider this, if not planning to rework the kibble tree, Wildcard.

Edited by girlygirlgamer322

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3 hours ago, girlygirlgamer322 said:

The problem is this that this change is going to eliminate a massive amount of content from PvE as well as make a much less exploring-oriented experience for new PvP players.

Forcing players to play a certain way in a sandbox game is not 'content'.

All the same taming and exploring content will still be in the game, you just won't be forced to Progress Quest your way through it anymore.

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Jesus raptoring Christ. I agree with Crumplecorn completely. All the old kibble system does is force people to progress in a specific way each time... and I hate that. Here's the thing, if people won't tame the old dinos outside of kibble purposes? Then they are poorly implemented and need a rework (Hello, TLCs!). They're not raptoring collectible trophies, they're each meant to serve a purpose if you tame them. Not sit around the base collecting dust. Compy is meant to be a hard to notice pack offense unit/interior base defense, Moschops is supposed to be a customizable gatherer, Para is an alarm etc. If people would not tame  them because "they're useless", clearly something is wrong with them. It's not the kibble system's job to make them useful, they are supposed to be useful in their own right.

But here's the other thing. You are betraying the fact that the only reason you tame them... is for kibble. Not because you like them, but for kibble. Well, that's exactly why this is being implemented. People will still tame dinos because they like them, and that will never change. I'm a pure PvE player. Know what my favorite mount is? Lymantria. Yes, the raptoring moth that has abysmal carry weight, is slow as hell, and can't even attack. I tame them because I enjoy riding on them. I have no other reason to tame them. There are better fliers by far. But I will still ride moths, because I enjoy it. I'm not going to take them to the Scar, certainly- I don't have a death wish!- but if I just need to go from Point A to point B and don't need a ton of weight? I can take my moths. PvE offers the most freedom to use tames simply because you enjoy using them, and nothing more. Arguably, this benefits PvE just as much by encouraging people to only tame the dinos they actually like, and not having huge kibble barns. Which is, again, part of the reason this is being implemented.

Worth noting, by the definition of the kibble system a decent chunk of ARK's animals are currently "useless"... because they are mammalian dead ends who do not lay eggs and therefore are only consumers of kibble, not producers of it. You cannot seriously suggest removing live birth from these animals to have them lay eggs for kibble as part of the rework. But, unless you do that, there are a good number of "useless" tames who people will tend not to tame. Either because they are annoying to tame (Hyaenadon) or because they are more useful in some game modes than others (Rhino) or because they are plain eclipsed by other tames (Saber). But funny thing. People still tame these... if they like them. That's the beauty of PvE, if we like something there's no real downside to taming and using it.

But here's the beautiful thing. With the new system... none of this matters. People will tame what they want to tame instead of being forced to tame A to tame C to tame G to tame B... etc etc etc to tame Z. If you want to tame everything, explore everything? Nothing is stopping you from doing it. Taming everything is arguably how you are forced to play right now if you want "perfect" tames (no thanks to you, current kibble system).  If you wouldn't do that if you didn't have to, then arguably this is not actually how you would play given the choice. If all you want to do is tame spinos? Now you can do that, too. If all you want to do is tame a horde of terror birds and unleash feathery death on the ARK? You can do that too now. Want to tame a legion of gigas and act like a Bond villain? Now you can do that too. We should NEVER be forced to tame something just for kibble. 

 

 

1 hour ago, samer said:

pls jen read this there will be a new custom map and tlc 3 pls give us information

 

Wrong place to ask, I'm afraid.

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14 hours ago, Crumplecorn said:

Forcing players to play a certain way in a sandbox game is not 'content'.

All the same taming and exploring content will still be in the game, you just won't be forced to Progress Quest your way through it anymore.

The new kibble system is "forcing" gameplay just as much as the old kibble system is, you just have to tame less species and there's little to no progression. As for your last sentence, reread my previous post.

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4 minutes ago, girlygirlgamer322 said:

The new kibble system is "forcing" gameplay just as much as the old kibble system is, you just have to tame less species and there's little to no progression. As for your last sentence, reread my previous post.

Perhaps should have been clearer: while I was agreeing with Crumplecorn in my previous post, I was responding to you as well.

 

Also, I think this is demonstrably not true. First, level is always going to gate your ability to make use of your tames, unless you have someone willing to craft the saddle for you or steal a blueprint (or saddle).

Second, the tames one needs in almost all circumstances can be broken down into discreet roles. The first is a wood gatherer. Next is the stone gatherer. Third, the metal gatherer. Fourth, aerial transport (Aberration excepting). Fifth, Melee Tank/Boss Killer. Sixth, Fast Travel. Seventh, Berry Gatherer. The most common for the first are beavers and mammoths, and their counterparts. Stone is almost invariably Doedicurus, with a notable exception if there is access to a Rock Elemental. Metal gatherer is eternally the Ankylosaurus. Aerial transport is a bit more diverse- Pteras and Argents are chosen for different reasons (speed vs utility), while the owl has become common since extinction due to a combination of speed and utility. Manas/Drakes also count, for obvious reasons. Melee/Boss killers are Rexes/ Theri (Island/Scorched) or Megalos (Aberration). Fast Travel may be the Aerial Transport if Ptera/Owl/Mana/Drake, or it could be a Thyla or any of the many, many mounts which serve this purpose.  As for Berry Gatherer, early game it could be a Trike or Iguandon. Late Game, Brontos are available.

All that needs to be done to prevent people from being "forced" into taming animals they do not want is something Crumplecorn touched on earlier: have these creatures arranged in their kibble preferences so as to promote an organic progression according to when they come into play. For example, Ankys are one of the "need" tames for most because of how good they are for harvesting metal. Taming an Anky, if you play your cards right, means you have access to Anky Eggs. Congratulations, you have access to regular kibble and that tier of dinos now. Ideally, however, Anky would prefer simple kibble instead of regular kibble, which you should already have the ability to make from taming a dino that makes small eggs. Notably, Trike is on the list I have handy for that- most people will tame one of these anyway, since it's easier than harvesting by hand and has a decent capability to defend itself, making it a solid early game tame. In turn, it should ask for "basic" kibble instead... which is dead easy to acquire, thanks to being able to literally pick the required eggs up off the beach from dodos. No taming required there unless you need an overgrown pet pigeon (Dodos were actually a type of pigeon, not kidding). 

The result is the progression happens as a result of what you were already doing. Note, you do not need to play this way. If you want to jump straight to an Anky and the dinos in its eggs kibble tier? Go right ahead. As soon as you have your first female Anky you have access to the whole tier. 

Regarding Subnautica, you bring up an excellent example. Subnautica is so good because it keeps you moving organically. You start in the shallows, and continue to travel progressively deeper and deeper. The game points you at successively deeper locations due to well-timed radio signals, which you want to find anyway because you start needing resources found in a certain biome or past a certain depth. You don't feel railroaded, however, because you will almost inevitably do this in order to acquire blueprints and build your base, not because the game is forcing you to head to location Y to collect Resource X. Not to mention, the world is just fun to explore. 

The few things one is "forced" to do, really, is build a moonpool, vehicle modification station and prawnsuit + swinging attachment (and a power source for the moonpool). That's what I would think the minimum is to complete the game. I  personally have a giant, massive base filled with aquariums housing each plant and animal which can be placed into them. ALL of them.  I didn't have to build it, though. I did it, and built my gardens which I use to liven up the place, because I had fun doing so. That base building is arguably most of my 85 hours and counting in the game at this point. 

However, the same resources I used to build the sprawling base could go into a cyclops (which I also built!), more seamoths, prawn suits and attachments, etc. Or just building the bloody escape rocket, I've certainly sunk more than enough resources into my base to build it a number of times over.  I could probably have built multiple bases! That's the key thing here. All the "Tames" in Subnautica (Glider, Prawn, Moth, Cyclops), for example, use the same "kibbles", broadly speaking (Or rather, they require most of the same "basic" materials to construct). You're likely to have at least some of what you need for them simply from going around and picking stuff up.

This new kibble system feels like it is trying to do that. From the same resources, you can branch off how you like, tame what you like, and "progress" as you like. Make no mistake, progression in ARK is not told solely through what tames you have and how many you have collected. The Explorer notes are part of that story as well, and most importantly the bosses are as well, with ascension being the "Rocket". You can certainly speedrun this- but that's doable in Subnautica as well. People can and do manage to disable a certain structure while preventing a certain ship from meeting a firey demise and escape the watery world within that time frame. You could do the same in ARK. Or you can take your time and enjoy the world and everything it has to offer, the ARKs (especially Aberration) are certainly beautiful enough and fun to explore. It should be your choice to do so

 

 

 

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I really like the "fused" approach, being able to use a class of eggs for one kibble which in turn tames a class of dinos is a huge help. I also like that the basic kibble class does not require advanced crops, so it's really accessible for early players.

But as others have pointed out, I'd like to see some changes to the dinos which can be tamed with each kibble class. I'd like to see a progression like with the old system, meaning basic kibble should tame at least some dinos which produce eggs for simple kibble and so on.

I'm also looking at important early game and farming tames... I'm using the list from the Kibble wiki page as reference. First you need a mobility and weight dino, and narcotics to tame, so berries and meat. The only dinos from the basic kibble list which help here are Parasaur and Vulture (does it gather meat? I never checked). Typical early game tames I think should also be tamed with basic kibble include trikes, phiomias, equus. Maybe a Raptor. Dimorphodons, Microraptors maybe? That could be interesting in PVP if these were easy to tame early. Then we need flyers and farmers. Pteranodon (basic), Argy(superior) + Anky(regular)/Doedi, Quetz or Paracer as Farming upgrade. Some wood gatherer in PVP for charcoal, ideally one that can be grabbed by the argy. Thorny dragon is regular kibble, but restricted to SE. Beaver and Mamoth is superior, Theri exceptional. An angler(regular) for electronics if you're not on extinction. Right arround the same time some meat gatherer/battle dino like bear, spino, rex (superior to exceptional). Maybe a fibre gatherer first, so Direbear, Megatherium or Gigantophitecus.

Also, advanced crops are comparatively hard to get if you're starting out. You need to plant them and wait for them to grow. You can't gather them. So the step from basic to simple kibble is quite substantial. Ideally, I'd like to see simple kibble not use advanced crops, and have simple kibble be sufficient for the basic mounts, so ptera, anky/doed and some wood and fibre gatherer. Argys and all meat eaters can be tamed with prime or mutton relatively quickly, so this applies mostly to all herbivores. A 150 Rex is 1.5h with prime during 2x event. A 150 Ankylo is 3h on mejos. Heck, even a Giga is a shorter tame with 1h50m on prime. In general I think herbivore kibble should be more accessible than carnivore kibble, due to the "no prime/mutton for herbivores" issue.

I'm also not sold on the names, honestly. Writing this, I initially confused basic and simple kibble and thought that simple is the kibble before basic. English is not my native language, but that just sounds like the same to me... Same with extraordinary and exceptional, and to a certain degree with superior. If it's superior, shouldn't it be the "best"? I guess it's not the most important thing, but from a "make a system as intuitive as possible" standpoint, I'd welcome other names for the kibbles. Just use the egg size names, even.

Not directly to do with kibble, but closely related: cooking kibble and other consumables without an industrial cooker is really really annoying due to the low slot count (and missing irrigation) of cooking pots. Prim+ has the cauldrons, which are not irrigated, but have 50 slots. They are such an immense QoL improvement over cooking pots, even without irrigation, it's ridiculous. So please, PLEASE, as part of the kibble tree revamp, either double the slots of cooking pots, or add a new cooking structure with more slots somewhere between the simple cooking pot and the industrial cooker. Or change cooking pots so they can be irrigated.

Edited by dark7np
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18 hours ago, Eldar Seer said:

Perhaps should have been clearer...

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I think what you write is great, but you are missing my main points. The kibble rework doesn't provide any type of freedom or dynamicness to the game, it just chops down the requirements to tame all the dinosaurs. Additionally, nobody is going to tame the rest of the useless animals just for immersion-that's not how people, or video games work.

There is no more choice with kibble rework at all, nor is there any more freedom. The kibble tree is simply being dumbed down so that the number dinosaurs you are required to tame is significantly reduced. The gameplay is going to be the exact same: You have to tame  one species and breed it in order to tame another. It's just that taming A is going to also tame B C D E and F, which takes out a huge chunk of gameplay content especially for those who play PvE.

 

With regards to your Subnautica example, a more realistic comparison would be that the "rework" in terms of subnautica means you can just gather lithium and copper in the safe shallows and that's literally all you need to build everything in the entire game. There's no reason to explore half the map anymore and half of the gameplay that people paid for is being cut out-that's what Wildcard is doing.

 

18 hours ago, Eldar Seer said:

earlier: have these creatures arranged in their kibble preferences so as to promote an organic progression according to when they come into play.

Hence my suggestion of simply reworking the kibble tree into something that bears at least some semblance of logic.

 

As I stated earlier, nobody is going to pursue dozens of useless dinosaurs across the map if they "really want immersion"-even in a sandbox game there has to be some kind of guidance in terms of rewards. Look at something like a female megaloceras or a diplodocus; nobody tames these for immersion's sake, they are dead weight in the game. That's what half the dinosaur species are going to be like. So whoever thinks that this new kibble system is fair to both player bases, no, it's not, it's just going to ruin the game for people who enjoyed kibble tree progression. The actual solution would be to leave an option to retain the old kibble system on your servers. Which I really hope Wildcard does.

 

On 1/19/2019 at 4:21 AM, Crumplecorn said:

Forcing players to play a certain way in a sandbox game is not 'content'.

All the same taming and exploring content will still be in the game, you just won't be forced to Progress Quest your way through it anymore.

Then get rid of the kibble system completely? You're still "forcing"  people to tame one species in order to get the next.

The old kibble system makes a point to exploring half the map, making people learn how to tame dozens of species, which ironically exposes you to the entire world (dangers, resources, etc).

 

All of the same taming and exploring content will not be in the game because it's literally being removed. If you read my posts you will understand why nobody is going to go out of their way to tame 50 species that will now be rendered useless. The species specific kibbles and hence the kibble progression is literally being removed, you can't progress from A>B>C>D anymore when A unlocks B C and D. Just like how right now you don't go tame a Stegosaurus to tame a Quetz.

 

Edited by girlygirlgamer322

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1 hour ago, girlygirlgamer322 said:

The kibble rework doesn't provide any type of freedom or dynamicness to the game, it just chops down the requirements to tame all the dinosaurs.

There is no more choice with kibble rework at all, nor is there any more freedom.

 

1 hour ago, girlygirlgamer322 said:

It's just that taming A is going to also tame B C D E and F, which takes out a huge chunk of gameplay content especially for those who play PvE.

These two quotes literally contradict each other.

And again, as has been explained at length, no content is being removed.

 

1 hour ago, girlygirlgamer322 said:

As I stated earlier, nobody is going to pursue dozens of useless dinosaurs across the map

If they're useless, why would you want the game to force you to tame them?

 

 

Back on topic, I like the idea some people are suggesting that the most commonly tamed dinos in each tier take the lower tier's eggs to provide some progression up the classes. However, the idea is to eliminate kibble farms, and if the most commonly desired dinos are the only ones which can't be kibble tamed using their own eggs, it could be a little self defeating.

Edited by Crumplecorn
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23 hours ago, girlygirlgamer322 said:

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post...

I think I understand better what you are saying now, but I still do have strong disagreements. 

On the first point, I do think it offers a degree of freedom. It is not perfect freedom, of course, but it is freedom nevertheless. There are desirable tames in each tier of kibble. For example, going off what has been updated recently in the ARK wiki, basic kibble offers the ability to tame parasaurs (I'm going to limit this to The Island, since everyone who owns ARK at minimum has access to it) and Dilos (which do serve a use {Sacrifices} at the very start). The rest of the Island tames in this tier are, to be fair, for the most part vanity tames or pets that don't take much space, but they are readily available if you are able to reach them (not a given with Kairuku!).

The next tier has more dinos available, including ones useful to a player at this stage such as the Ptera, Megaloceros (useful early thatch gatherer), Dimorph (one of the most useful Island Shoulder Pets), and the humble Trike. Next tier has a larger number of dinos, including Bayonyx (one of the best caving mounts), Gigantopithecus (useful for fiber and as a bit of a tank), and sarcos (useful amphibious mount). And so on. Each tier does, indeed, open up a player to taming the rest of the tier. This is exactly as it should be. This is exactly what is intended. Part of the reason this is being implemented is to make kibble barns obsolete, free up creature cap and server resources, and encourage people to tame only what they want to tame (AKA: Freedom). This is by design. As I have stated multiple times, the option of taming everything is still available to you. Just no longer needed. 

This in no way takes away from the exploration content of ARK, which while related to taming is not tied to it exclusively. Caves need to be found and explored, there are explorer notes to hunt down, base locations to survey, cave and sea drops to loot, and bosses to fight (and of course, the tributes which need to be collected for that). None of this content is eliminated, and in fact I would argue it is more accessible due to it being easier to move bases, obtain caving dinos, and progress to the boss killing tier. In fact, I would argue this makes the game as a whole more accessible to new players compared to the old system.

On the point of naturally progressing, I agreed with you (Re: Anky/Trike) to an extent. Each tier should have a dinosaur that a player would normally want to tame anyway that grants access to the next tier. Some should be lowered a rank or two for other reasons (Re: Mammmoth/Castorides), but there would still be progression from tier to tier.

On the point of the dinos being useless... again, multiple mammals again do not produce kibble while still consuming it... and sometimes, not even that (hello again, drunken Chalicos...). The same also applies to literally every fully aquatic tame, not one of which lay eggs outside of breeding. Players have no reason to tame these for kibble as it is. Furthermore, if the "kibble tames" are "useless" that is a fundamental flaw with the tame itself, and not one the kibble system should cover. Each tame was implemented in the game to serve a purpose. If they are not serving that purpose, well... then they need to be fixed (see: TLCs). People will still tame them if they like them, though (see: myself and moths), but it doesn't change that their implementation was flawed if that is the perception of them (And I will be the first admit my beloved moth is kind of raptored). Also, many of the tames implemented in EA were put in because people wanted to see them in game, tame them, ride them and use them. Pretty much every dino in game now on The Island was requested during EA by the community to some extent, even if the implementation was not as expected.  

On the part about choice... I honestly do not understand your argument in the least. This all about choice. You can choose which dinos you want to tame more easily now, as you have a whole tier that opens up to you with taming just one of the animals in the tier that also produces eggs. Outside of Exceptional, you have a fair amount of choice within each tier, and as I outlined earlier it would be very easy to make a logical progression that feels natural. There is really no argument that this does not offer more choice and freedom than the current system. Arguing you might as well take away the entire kibble system is not in good faith considering the reason kibble exists is to maximize taming efficiency and make taming time shorter. You have to put in more time into preparation compared to a prime fish/meat or mejo tame, but you get convenience in exchange. I would never want to tame a 150 Theri on mejos, I can say that right now. 

 

Ah, good point  @Crumplecorn .Didn't think of that. Any suggestions? 

Edited by Eldar Seer
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The consequence of having to tame a dino from the tier to get the eggs for this tier, IMHO, would be similar to what we have now. You tame some low level meat eaters with prime/mutton to get eggs, then kibble tame the rest. Then that low level dino is obsolete, in effect just beeing a kibble dino. It's still more convenient, yes. It's likely to happen anyway, especially with mutton tames if you're low on kibble. But on the note of progression and QoL, I vote for some (ideally usefull) higher tier dinos to use lower tier kibble.

Regarding obsolete dinos - I think there might be less of those than some of you might think. Some people use other dinos just because they like them better, like the moth example. I've known people who have used Diplos for PVP tanking, just because they happened to find one with an insane HP stat. I personally favor Spinos to Rexes and am thus annoyed that Tek Rexes exist and trump Spinos for boss fights. Some like carnos, which to me are useless. Yes, some dinos don't see that much use, and I personally won't mind not having to tame say a Pachy just because I need it's kibble for Paracers. I don't feel like I'm loosing progression or content because of this. I feel like I'll have more time to spend on things which are fun to me, which is great.

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On 1/21/2019 at 8:31 AM, dark7np said:

Regarding obsolete dinos - I think there might be less of those than some of you might think. Some people use other dinos just because they like them better, like the moth example. I've known people who have used Diplos for PVP tanking, just because they happened to find one with an insane HP stat. I personally favor Spinos to Rexes and am thus annoyed that Tek Rexes exist and trump Spinos for boss fights. Some like carnos, which to me are useless. Yes, some dinos don't see that much use, and I personally won't mind not having to tame say a Pachy just because I need it's kibble for Paracers. I don't feel like I'm loosing progression or content because of this. I feel like I'll have more time to spend on things which are fun to me, which is great.

Thats exactly the point. I love playing single player and with a small amount of creatures. I always used a mod for better or easier kibble, because I don't want to built a stable with all kibble creatures, just to tame and breed my favorite creatures. I really like the new kibble system. You can kibble tame small creatures at the beginning without building a crop plot area for which you need to be 26. To the point of progression: Maybe implementing a Tier 0 variant which doesn't require an egg and tames the little stuff such as dodos (everything from Tier 1 exept the Para). Those Tier 0 eggs are required to craft Tier 1 kibble, Tier 1 eggs for Tier 2 creatures, etc. Tier 0 kibble could be a combination of berries, meat and fish for example. And the rest can go on as it is...except the obviously needed change in the extraordinary kibble.

Some other changes I would like to see:

The Equus should drop into the simple tier, it should be an easy early game tame and doesn't give you an advantage at this time of the game.

Wolves belong in the same tier as sabers and purlovia - regular kibble.

Thylas really need to be in the superior tier, not the extraordinary.

The extraordinary tier should include Rock Golems, Gigas, Quetzals, Mosas and Yutis. Every other creature doesn't really fit the spot of being kinda special. Griffins should drop down to exceptional.

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On 1/12/2019 at 3:45 PM, syragong said:

Babies still need the old kibble for imprinting, you can't craft the old kibbles anymore and they won't accept any of the new kibble as substitutes.

On extinction they ask for kibble that are the same name as the new ones but they won't accept it.

same. hope they fix this soon 😕

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4 hours ago, NeddyTheNoodle said:

The Kibble Wiki page is actually wrong about a lot of the creatures and is being changed all the time. As a rule of thumb, don't refer to the kibble wiki page for accurate information about how the beta's kibble system currently works.

Gracias, much appreciated. Is this still accurate as a reference, then? Posted by @Mikethegod9 in the announcement thread for S+ inteegration/Kibble rework.

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