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breeding Breeding Total Mutation Count 40 or infinity?


gustafvschmidt

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So I just replied to a post about breeding. In which, I considered whether the total mutation count for parents in order for a mutation to occur is 40 or infinity. That is, can a mutation occur in an offspring from a father who has greater than 20 mutations on both his paternal and maternal side, and a mother with greater than 20 on the paternal side but less than 20 on the maternal side? This particular fact scenario turns on whether the total mutation count of the parents is limited to 40 or is virtually infinity. I hope we can get a clear answer. (we, as in me and hopefully others who have wondered or now would like to know). And I thank whoever answers it! 

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5 hours ago, gustafvschmidt said:

So I just replied to a post about breeding. In which, I considered whether the total mutation count for parents in order for a mutation to occur is 40 or infinity. That is, can a mutation occur in an offspring from a father who has greater than 20 mutations on both his paternal and maternal side, and a mother with greater than 20 on the paternal side but less than 20 on the maternal side? This particular fact scenario turns on whether the total mutation count of the parents is limited to 40 or is virtually infinity. I hope we can get a clear answer. (we, as in me and hopefully others who have wondered or now would like to know). And I thank whoever answers it! 

To give you a clear answer:

When you mate dinos several things happen, one of which is game generates a list of stats from parents that can be mutated (one list for both parents). Then game picks a stat from that list and a random parent and rolls for new mutation and if successful applies +2 points to that stat (game makes 3 rolls on mutation at about 2.5% chance, so multiple mutations can happen). That means one parent can mutate other parent's stat (this is important!).

If one parent's sum of mutation markers (pat+mat) is equal or greater than 20, then game automatically fails new mutation check for that parent. If other parent has less than 20 total mutation markers then baby still can have a mutation, but the chance is effectively halved. In case of both parents having more than 20 markers individually - new mutations can not occur.

Based on the above knowledge players have devised a way to breed for mutations infinitely: have a male with desired high stat you want to mutate and breed it with any number of clean (0/40 mutations) females to get as many babies as possible until you get a new mutation in that desired stat. If new mutated baby is a male - you swap previous male with this baby and continue the cycle, if it is female - you breed it with any other clean (0/40) male until you get a male baby with desired stat.

 

Conclusion: as long as at least one parent has less than 20 TOTAL mutation markers then new mutation can happen.

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1 hour ago, DarthaNyan said:

To give you a clear answer:

When you mate dinos several things happen, one of which is game generates a list of stats from parents that can be mutated (one list for both parents). Then game picks a stat from that list and a random parent and rolls for new mutation and if successful applies +2 points to that stat (game makes 3 rolls on mutation at about 2.5% chance, so multiple mutations can happen). That means one parent can mutate other parent's stat (this is important!).

If one parent's sum of mutation markers (pat+mat) is equal or greater than 20, then game automatically fails new mutation check for that parent. If other parent has less than 20 total mutation markers then baby still can have a mutation, but the chance is effectively halved. In case of both parents having more than 20 markers individually - new mutations can not occur.

Based on the above knowledge players have devised a way to breed for mutations infinitely: have a male with desired high stat you want to mutate and breed it with any number of clean (0/40 mutations) females to get as many babies as possible until you get a new mutation in that desired stat. If new mutated baby is a male - you swap previous male with this baby and continue the cycle, if it is female - you breed it with any other clean (0/40) male until you get a male baby with desired stat.

 

Conclusion: as long as at least one parent has less than 20 TOTAL mutation markers then new mutation can happen.

That’s how I thought it worked, but everybody else seems to be under the assumption that you just need slots open in the matrilineal or partrilineal lines for the respective parents gender.  Meaning they think a father with 20/20 matrilineal and 19/20 patrilineal mutations can still get mutations with a mother with 19/20 matrilineal and 20/20 patrilineal mutations. I always thought it was one parent had to have less than 20 total from both patrilineal and matrilineal.

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26 minutes ago, RipRavage said:

That’s how I thought it worked, but everybody else seems to be under the assumption that you just need slots open in the matrilineal or partrilineal lines for the respective parents gender.  Meaning they think a father with 20/20 matrilineal and 19/20 patrilineal mutations can still get mutations with a mother with 19/20 matrilineal and 20/20 patrilineal mutations. I always thought it was one parent had to have less than 20 total from both patrilineal and matrilineal.

well, people tend to believe in whatever they want to believe. I happen to find data from disassembled client more believable that any other source, especially when findings from that data coincide with empirical tests done by many breeders.

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7 hours ago, DarthaNyan said:

well, people tend to believe in whatever they want to believe. I happen to find data from disassembled client more believable that any other source, especially when findings from that data coincide with empirical tests done by many breeders.

wow, thanks, DarthaNyan, and RipRavage. I'm definitely one who has been operating on the assumption that you only needed the respective side of the parent to be clean, i.e. father needs less than 20 on paternal mutations. Or at most less than 20 on both sides, so less than 40 total mutations. The wiki on gamepedia seems to say as much, and I haven't verified in my own breeding one way or another.  I'll assume you are correct in my approach to breeding, because may as well. One stud and multiple clean females is safest/most efficient way imo anyways. But if I come across contrary evidence, e.g. a mut from a dirty male and female with just matrilineal clean, i'll update this thread, if I can find it again at that time. But i'm not gonna go out of my way to test it, lol. thanks again. :) 

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1 hour ago, gustafvschmidt said:

I'll assume you are correct in my approach to breeding, because may as well. One stud and multiple clean females is safest/most efficient way imo anyways.

Another (easier) explanation: breeding is not about parents but about the offspring. Baby born from two parents that have 20+ marks each will have 20+/20 on both sides which, from game's logic perspective, is a reason enough to not mutate it any further.

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1 hour ago, DarthaNyan said:

Another (easier) explanation: breeding is not about parents but about the offspring. Baby born from two parents that have 20+ marks each will have 20+/20 on both sides which, from game's logic perspective, is a reason enough to not mutate it any further.

 

1 hour ago, RipRavage said:

The wiki is all messed up and has a lot of misinformation if this is the case.  I think that is why everybody is so confused on the matter.

Maybe one of you should update the wiki with your expansive knowledge! Im sure the whole community will greatly appreciate it and thank you! :Melee_Damage::Jerbhi:

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7 hours ago, d1nk said:

Maybe one of you should update the wiki with your expansive knowledge! Im sure the whole community will greatly appreciate it and thank you! 

An exercise in futility. Mutation page already references that reddit post with pseudocode at the very bottom, breeding guide in "weblinks" explicitly says how it works, yet whoever wrote that article completely ignored them both.

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2 hours ago, d1nk said:

 

Maybe one of you should update the wiki with your expansive knowledge! Im sure the whole community will greatly appreciate it and thank you! :Melee_Damage::Jerbhi:

You can go update the wiki if you want to, I don't want to mess it up any worse than it is already.  Its a shame because I usually turn to the wiki when I need info on game mechanics and it seems to be quite out of date or wrong.

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  • 1 month later...
On ‎8‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 5:28 AM, DarthaNyan said:

Another (easier) explanation: breeding is not about parents but about the offspring. Baby born from two parents that have 20+ marks each will have 20+/20 on both sides which, from game's logic perspective, is a reason enough to not mutate it any further.

this is it. thank you.

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On 8/3/2018 at 12:10 PM, DarthaNyan said:

but the chance is effectively halved.

then how did i get 2 stat mutations and 2 color mutations in a baby while the male parent was above 20 mutations on both sides. ( i have screenshots with parent id's)

and if it is halved, then what is the chance of mutation if i combine hp and md in a 20/20 male, dont i double the chance again of a mut, so no change?

and what if i want to mutate 4 stats hp stamina weight and melee in a 20/20male, what are the chances of mutations now ?

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23 minutes ago, BertNoobians said:

then how did i get 2 stat mutations and 2 color mutations in a baby while the male parent was above 20 mutations on both sides. ( i have screenshots with parent id's)

3 rolls at 2.5% with a random parent and stat chosen per roll. It is possible to get all 3 of them if you are lucky enough for RNG to choose parent that is able to mutate(usually female) AND hit those 2.5% all 3 times.

25 minutes ago, BertNoobians said:

and if it is halved, then what is the chance of mutation if i combine hp and md in a 20/20 male, dont i double the chance again of a mut, so no change?

and what if i want to mutate 4 stats hp stamina weight and melee in a 20/20male, what are the chances of mutations now ?

You are confusing pure chance of mutation with chance of mutation and inheriting of a wanted stat.

The problem in your scenario is an added RNG of not inheriting all the highest stats even if/when mutation occurrs which will lead to the breeding overhead, aka waste of time of putting all the needed stats back in one male every time.

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2 minutes ago, DarthaNyan said:

3 rolls at 2.5% with a random parent and stat chosen per roll. It is possible to get all 3 of them if you are lucky enough for RNG to choose parent that is able to mutate(usually female) AND hit those 2.5% all 3 times.

You are confusing pure chance of mutation with chance of mutation and inheriting of a wanted stat.

The problem in your scenario is an added RNG of not inheriting all the highest stats even if/when mutation occurrs which will lead to the breeding overhead, aka waste of time of putting all the needed stats back in one male every time.

so it halved or not ?

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20 minutes ago, BertNoobians said:

so it halved or not ?

yes. If one parent is at 20/20 - then the chance of successful mutation rolls on a random stat is essentially halved. This part wont change no matter what.

If you combine several stats you want to mutate in one male - you get less "wasted" successful mutations (like melee mut on a HP line, etc) but are subject to a lot more RNG in the process which leads to a lot of wasted time preparing the next male for new mutation breeding.

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Just now, DarthaNyan said:

yes. If one parent is at 20/20 - then the chance of successful mutation rolls on a random stat is essentially halved. This part wont change no matter what.

If you combine several stats you want to mutate in one male - you get less "wasted" mutations (like melee mut on a HP line, etc) but are subjected to a lot more RNG in the process which leads to a lot of wasted time preparing the next male for new mutation breeding.

clean male + clean female = 3x 2.5%

20/20 male + clean female = 2x 2.5%

thats not halved.

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2 minutes ago, GrumpyBear said:

I could have sworn there’s another caveat with mutations wanting to go to the male side just a little bit more than the female side.  55%/45%.   So if the male is over muted ,  then the odds are slightly less than if the male was clean and female overmuted.

yes that a male gets more muts could be true, because it does indeed feel halved while calculations say otherwise. and i couldnt understand it. and i think there are many other variables that are unknown to us when it comes to mutations. after mutating a year on rexes, it is for sure not as simple as we think it is.

but you can get 2 muts in a clean female so what you saying doesnt work better. and you cant make 200 females each time.

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42 minutes ago, BertNoobians said:

clean male + clean female = 3x 2.5%

20/20 male + clean female = 2x 2.5%

thats not halved

stubborn, arent you?

you can get all 3 parent selections fall on 20/20 male resulting in all mutation rolls fail even before 2.5% chance calculation.

There are 8 possible states of parent selection:
mmm = all 3 times 20/20 male was selected so no mutations here
fmm, mfm, mmf = only 1 out of 3 rolls clean female is selected.
ffm, fmf, mff = 2 out of 3 rolls clean female is selected
fff = 3/3

A total of 12 possible successful rolls - a half compared to breeding clean male and clean female.

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On 8/3/2018 at 12:10 PM, DarthaNyan said:

To give you a clear answer:

When you mate dinos several things happen, one of which is game generates a list of stats from parents that can be mutated (one list for both parents). Then game picks a stat from that list and a random parent and rolls for new mutation and if successful applies +2 points to that stat (game makes 3 rolls on mutation at about 2.5% chance, so multiple mutations can happen). That means one parent can mutate other parent's stat (this is important!).

If one parent's sum of mutation markers (pat+mat) is equal or greater than 20, then game automatically fails new mutation check for that parent. If other parent has less than 20 total mutation markers then baby still can have a mutation, but the chance is effectively halved. In case of both parents having more than 20 markers individually - new mutations can not occur.

Based on the above knowledge players have devised a way to breed for mutations infinitely: have a male with desired high stat you want to mutate and breed it with any number of clean (0/40 mutations) females to get as many babies as possible until you get a new mutation in that desired stat. If new mutated baby is a male - you swap previous male with this baby and continue the cycle, if it is female - you breed it with any other clean (0/40) male until you get a male baby with desired stat.

 

Conclusion: as long as at least one parent has less than 20 TOTAL mutation markers then new mutation can happen.

Hello,

This is by far the best summary I have seen.

Also it explains why mutations seems to stop suddenly even if they don't stop fully.

Having limits, caps and just two for each mutation is making it super hard.

Do you @DarthaNyan have a mutation buff tip other than S+, no-mod tip I mean?

Regards,

Ariana 

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9 minutes ago, DarthaNyan said:

stubborn, arent you?

you can get all 3 parent selections fall on 20/20 male resulting in all mutation rolls fail even before 2.5% chance calculation.

There are 8 possible states of parent selection:
mmm = all 3 times 20/20 male was selected so no mutations here
fmm, mfm, mmf = only 1 out of 3 rolls clean female is selected.
ffm, fmf, mff = 2 out of 3 rolls clean female is selected
fff = 3/3

A total of 12 possible successful rolls - a half compared to breeding clean male and clean female.

to be precise its 55% chance to select parent with highest value of the selected mutable stat index (which is usually the male with over 20/20 muts) in the process of determining whether or not mutation can occur. So with one parent having 20/20 the chance of getting a successful mutation roll is more than halved regardless of gender.

after 1 year of mutating i can say that it is sadly not as simple as this.

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