Why are the building mechanics (still) so awful?

[Oldster]

As a thoroughly amateur programmer who has zero official training I would have to say that both are possible factors.

It's very plausible that some of the core functions that were built early on preclude easy solutions at this Advanced stage. But it is also possible that the foundation under the WC engine, the Unreal Engine, simply isn't up to the task of layering thorough building functions atop such a large, streaming heavy world.

But all this comes with one caveat; at performant levels.

The Unreal Engine is highly flexible and powerful, and building functions aren't some new idea, even in a streaming environment. A comprehensive building game would be trivial without heavy performances requirements.

[Oldster]

Thought of a juicy technical example; check out how long Halo 5 has to freeze the game just to generate their shadows on player made structures in creative mode. 

And that's without realtime dynamic environment/terrain shadows AND without the requirement to be loaded quickly.

PS - everything ive said here is a gross oversimplification and likely wrong. It's just meant to give a taste of what the actual reality might smell like.

[Boshek77]

I know that Conan is built on the same engine and the building mechanics there are a dream compared to Ark, but still very similar.  However, Ark excels at many different areas where Conan falls short, so to be sure, I am not trying to directly compare the two.  I agree with mgsgta3, that these issues were seeded in the early development of the game, and building mechanics just weren't the priority.

[Uueerdo]

4 minutes ago, Boshek77 said:

I know that Conan is built on the same engine and the building mechanics there are a dream compared to Ark, but still very similar.  However, Ark excels at many different areas where Conan falls short, so to be sure, I am not trying to directly compare the two.  I agree with mgsgta3, that these issues were seeded in the early development of the game, and building mechanics just weren't the priority.

Yeah, my attention is currently being monopolized by Conan Exiles as well. While the building mechanics so far seem to be much smoother; I've also heard of people having similar issues (like walls loading after interiors, and floors loading after tames/thralls), so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the blame lies in the Unreal Engine itself.

CE's buildables also feel more expensive (in time taken to gather required resources) than Ark's,  making me wonder if the average base size and/or number of bases is smaller.

[Pipinghot]

12 hours ago, mgsgta3 said:

The answer has arrived!
Okay, When Ark was a little bebe, just a tiny little bundle of code it was hardly more than an unreal gamebuilding tutorial. The first things added, was the foundation of the game, that was the building mechanics and other core mechanics that EVERYTHING else relies on in order for it to function somewhat properly. If direct changes were to be made to these core mechanics it would break a lot of things, or would be a massive undertaking of editing and adjusting,well, about every single  placeable item. It's be a lot more work than im making it sound like. While it should have been done better from the start you have to remember Wildcard was a small team of devs, who may NOT have been the most skilled, but certainly WERE the most ambitious. This has come back to bite them in the butt a number of times(namely with delays and release dates in general). Since then theyve grown, and hired more people, honed and learned new skills, and if they had to remake Ark starting today they likely would have the know-how to avoid basing their game off of a game developing tutorial(shootergame.exe) and would build it from the ground up, and would have the know-how to make the building systems tighter and much better functioning. 
tl;dr Look at it like a Jenga tower, the whole tower relies on the bottom two rows. Thos erows represent the core mechanics of the game, and to fix them theyd have to replace both rows with new pieces. is it possible? Yes. Is it going to happen? No, not in Ark 1.  The best bet we have for this being solved in Ark is when they implement S+ into official(which s+ skirts the whole issue entirely with great success for the most part)
Good news is though: You can be sure  Ark 2 wont have these core mechanic issues.

That's a great sounding explanation but it sounds like the kind of boiler-plate answer that anyone in the marketing department could give out while having zero technical knowldge. Those paragraphs are so non-technically vague that you could give this same description of pretty much every online game in the history of ever and it would still apply.

You've provided no information at all regarding which problems are due to the underlying game engine and which are due to improper implementation in ARK, which leads me to believe that you do not have a technical background and are only speaking in generalities. After 30 years in IT Operations (just not as a developer) I have a bunch of practice identifying people who are bluffing with non-technical answers to technical questions, and that's how your answer reads. As a result, I'm forced to ask you about your bona fides:

1) do you have development experience (like real, professional development experience, not merely "I've written some stuff in javascript for fun) ?

2) Do you have enough knowledge of the underlying game engine that ARK is built on to be able to tell the difference between a "game engine" problem and an "ARK" problem?

 

[Pipinghot]

On 6/13/2018 at 2:46 PM, Oldster said:

As a thoroughly amateur programmer who has zero official training I would have to say that both are possible factors.

Well yeah, which is the reason for this thread. Both are "possible", essentially you're repeating the initial question.

On 6/13/2018 at 2:46 PM, Oldster said:

It's very plausible that some of the core functions that were built early on preclude easy solutions at this Advanced stage. But it is also possible that the foundation under the WC engine, the Unreal Engine, simply isn't up to the task of layering thorough building functions atop such a large, streaming heavy world.

But all this comes with one caveat; at performant levels.

Agreed, that's the same logic path that spurred me to ask this question in the first place.

1) Sometimes problems in a system can become bound by its original code and can only be fixed by a thorough rewrite.

2) When you use a third-party engine to run your application on top of you are bound by the limitations of the underlying engine.

3) Even if the underlying engine prevented the functionality you wanted at first, if that engine gets updated at a later date you might still need to extensively rewrite code in order to take advantage of the engine improvements.

4) And any improvements you make must work properly at the performance level you want. New versions of software must pass both functionality and performance testing in order to be acceptable.

Which all leads us back to the original question, where does the reponsibility lie?

On 6/13/2018 at 2:46 PM, Oldster said:

The Unreal Engine is highly flexible and powerful, and building functions aren't some new idea, even in a streaming environment. A comprehensive building game would be trivial without heavy performances requirements.

Which is how it seems based on what I know of the Unreal Engine, but it's easy to just make assumptions based on how things feel and those assumptions are what I'm trying to avoid.

This game has been in full release for months now, and yet the building mechanics are still awful and barely good enough for early beta. From where I sit it looks like WC simply doesn't care enough about the building mechanics, which is why they let the game go into Production with game mechanics that weren't good enough for a beta sign off. They waited until after release to even begin integrating S+ into the game, which says to me that they are out of touch with just how important building mechanics are in a building game. Having said all that, there are often a lot of hidden problems in software that make it harder to do things than most people expect, so there might be limitations that could explain why the building mechanics are still so bad. I surely looks like WC doesn't think building mechanics are a priority, the intent of this thread is to give them the benefit of the doubt inquire whether there are reasonable answers other than their lack of concern.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mgsgta3]

On 6/13/2018 at 7:57 PM, Pipinghot said:

That's a great sounding explanation but it sounds like the kind of boiler-plate answer that anyone in the marketing department could give out while having zero technical knowldge. Those paragraphs are so non-technically vague that you could give this same description of pretty much every online game in the history of ever and it would still apply.

You've provided no information at all regarding which problems are due to the underlying game engine and which are due to improper implementation in ARK, which leads me to believe that you do not have a technical background and are only speaking in generalities. After 30 years in IT Operations (just not as a developer) I have a bunch of practice identifying people who are bluffing with non-technical answers to technical questions, and that's how your answer reads. As a result, I'm forced to ask you about your bona fides:

1) do you have development experience (like real, professional development experience, not merely "I've written some stuff in javascript for fun) ?

2) Do you have enough knowledge of the underlying game engine that ARK is built on to be able to tell the difference between a "game engine" problem and an "ARK" problem?

 

Ive developed a total of 0.00 games, apps, and programs in my life, so there's that for my experience. While i have no experience, I DO pay attention and am very interested in how things work and are built, and have picked up knowledge and information over the years about Ark. So, like a news article or something similar, I tried to relay what I could recall in a way that made sense. Am I absolutely right? Never. Im not pulling answers out of a phiomas butt though.
While I dont feel particularly compelled to search for sources for a random forum post I probably will lol

[Pipinghot]

2 minutes ago, mgsgta3 said:

While I dont feel particularly compelled to search for sources for a random forum post I probably will lol

Totally understand that, it's not your job to do homework for other people. Any legit information you can provide is respected and appreciated.

[HiImZech]

though I don't know how things are using the unreal engine but chances are I guess it's related to collision and the meshing. game rejects any structure placement if they are within the terrain/mesh. that should also include things like other structures.

there is an option to turn terrain collision off. that option alone is a god-sent, but its not available on official servers.

 

yea building is a pain. I remember having to remodel a sea pen, and I ended up breaking an entire section of the wall just because when it was first built the pillars were at a different snap point so technically its not snapped together. I wished the dev will add something to tell us what are snapped to this piece of foundation. like a highlight or something will suffice.

pve has the benefit of drafting everything in thatch first without fear of getting raided in the next hour. 

single player pvp has the benefit of experimenting with your intended build. you can always spawn in new materials to place down and if you make a mess it's ok just wipe it (rocket launcher + god mode OP) or try again in another spot.

also because some of my stuff are built pre-release there are structures I have that is now considered under mesh and I can't reach them to demolish. good thing when I discovered them they can be easily auto decayed so I just left them be

 

if you want to talk about software development I can tell you about the functionality side of things (not a designer), and the way I see ark its a good place to hone your '"system integration test" skills, if you get what I mean

[Pipinghot]

On 6/11/2018 at 4:28 PM, DJRone89 said:

You still haven’t addressed what your issues are. In order for this topic to progress, you need to dissect the problems. What do you consider bad building mechanics? Only then can people step in and work out if it’s an engine issue or poor implementation.

So you got the answer to your question, and you haven't had anything to say since then. So... I'm guessing this means you didn't have any useful information to begin with, just having fun kibitzing for no good reason. ...?

[DESTROYER]

30 minutes ago, Pipinghot said:

So you got the answer to your question, and you haven't had anything to say since then. So... I'm guessing this means you didn't have any useful information to begin with, just having fun kibitzing for no good reason. ...?

He was merely getting you to explain the problems that you are having with building.

So that someone  with more knowledge in this situation can help more, because let's be honest no one can help if they don't know what issues you are referring to.

[Guest DJRone89]

4 hours ago, Pipinghot said:

So you got the answer to your question, and you haven't had anything to say since then. So... I'm guessing this means you didn't have any useful information to begin with, just having fun kibitzing for no good reason. ...?

What are you trying to gain by quoting my last comment, again?

Your first reply was much more friendly and merely explained that I didn’t understand your topic, which I didn’t and pretty much the majority of the people on this thread. 

At this point, all I see is negativity for no reason. Why not leave me comment to die and get buried?

[Guest DJRone89]

4 hours ago, DESTROYER said:

He was merely getting you to explain the problems that you are having with building.

So that someone  with more knowledge in this situation can help more, because let's be honest no one can help if they don't know what issues you are referring to.

Actually, OP already knows all of the issues and is merely asking if it’s an engine issue or poor execution from the devs.

OP didn’t need people to start listing their issues or to understand what issues OP was facing.

Unfortunately most of the people on this thread, like me, didn’t understand the question at first or at all it seems.

[DESTROYER]

1 hour ago, DJRone89 said:

Actually, OP already knows all of the issues and is merely asking if it’s an engine issue or poor execution from the devs.

OP didn’t need people to start listing their issues or to understand what issues OP was facing.

Unfortunately most of the people on this thread, like me, didn’t understand the question at first or at all it seems.

I'm aware of that but what I'm getting at is depending on the issue being encountered it could stem from a different source.

 

For example

And think about the smithy it has a weird hit box when placing but disappears after its placed, you can't honestly tell me that is because of the game engine.

The way pillars attach to ceilings is a problem that comes from the coding.

But the snap points might be restricted by the game engine.

So to reiterate he needed to explain the problem so someone with knowledge can explain where it comes from the game engine or the programming.

[Pipinghot]

7 hours ago, DJRone89 said:

Your first reply was much more friendly and merely explained that I didn’t understand your topic, which I didn’t and pretty much the majority of the people on this thread.

Fair enough, I actually didn't realize you had backed away for that reason. Thank you for replying.

[metsfan92286]

There was talk about bringing S+ into the base game but I'm guessing that they axed it in favor of new content.  

[Pipinghot]

14 hours ago, metsfan92286 said:

There was talk about bringing S+ into the base game but I'm guessing that they axed it in favor of new content.  

No, it's still in progress. S+ is included in the discussion in the OP beginning this thread.

[OutlawFirebird]

On 6/18/2018 at 10:51 PM, Pipinghot said:

No, it's still in progress. S+ is included in the discussion in the OP beginning this thread.

They should talk about it.  They haven't said anything on it for a long time.  Most people would prefer them getting that in the base game, and inproving the overall mechanics of the game.  Instead they just do map after map.

[Guest DJRone89]

30 minutes ago, OutlawFirebird said:

 Instead they just do map after map.

Map after map, you say? Apart from the last DLC, there would have been over a year in between each official map.

I didn’t include The Center or Ragnarok, because they were both modded and not created by the devs, with all work still completed by the map creators.

Are you saying they haven’t focused on anything in between maps, because that just seems like a silly statement?

[OutlawFirebird]

12 hours ago, DJRone89 said:

Map after map, you say? Apart from the last DLC, there would have been over a year in between each official map.

I didn’t include The Center or Ragnarok, because they were both modded and not created by the devs, with all work still completed by the map creators.

Are you saying they haven’t focused on anything in between maps, because that just seems like a silly statement?

Yet we are here talking about the awful building mechanics that have not been addressed at all.  

[Guest DJRone89]

38 minutes ago, OutlawFirebird said:

Yet we are here talking about the awful building mechanics that have not been addressed at all.  

It was you who said they only focus on maps. I’m just stating it’s a flawed argument.

I think it’s pretty clear they know they have messed up and unsure how to fix it because they would have tried to rectify the issues themselves without acquiring mod assistance in the form of S+.

OP asks if it’s a poor implementation or engine issues, but I’d say it’s both. Unfortunately I don’t have the technical knowledge on the subject so I’m parting here.

[ehuhoser]

I know your pain in the OP.  There are tips and tricks to get the buildings to change and act like what you want and take a lot, I mean sometimes a lot of patience to get it to work and I agree, something like this game is really the most difficult.  Now what we are talking about is PvE standpoint of course because well in PvP you don't have time and other luxuries of course.

 

Mostly what I've learned is from AaronLongstaff, GG Fizz, Missy Prime (and others) tutorials like builds or similar to incorporate ideas into my servers.   In my builds I like to use the lay of the land more instead of flat ground and will use clipping to allow for harder to place foundations which if honestly was stuck in the pre clip era I would most likely just use more pillars which I hate.

I have said long ago that WC needed to have more shapes, better build mechanics, but they left that to mods I guess.  Yes many are confined to what is possible in game, but right now it does not look like we will see anything more than what is currently in game.

[OutlawFirebird]

12 hours ago, DJRone89 said:

It was you who said they only focus on maps. I’m just stating it’s a flawed argument.

I think it’s pretty clear they know they have messed up and unsure how to fix it because they would have tried to rectify the issues themselves without acquiring mod assistance in the form of S+.

OP asks if it’s a poor implementation or engine issues, but I’d say it’s both. Unfortunately I don’t have the technical knowledge on the subject so I’m parting here.

Nex content is what they seem to focus on.  I mean they did scorched Earth before the game was even realeased yet.  There is more stuff that needs worked on other than the building mechanics,. Yet they don't say anything on the matter.  Them talking about issues would ease the tension alot.

[Pipinghot]

On 6/20/2018 at 12:43 AM, OutlawFirebird said:

They should talk about it.  They haven't said anything on it for a long time.  Most people would prefer them getting that in the base game, and inproving the overall mechanics of the game.  Instead they just do map after map.

Yeah, it would be nice if they talked about it more, although my guess would be integrating S+ into the game is taking more time and work than they expected. Having said that, the creator of S+ is now working for WC full time, so there's no doubt that they're continuing to work on this integration. As much as I dislike the building mechanics I'd rather that they give him enough time to do it right rather than rush a bad "fix" into the game. I mean, the building really should have been fixed a long time ago but that's not his fault, and we want him to be able to do the best job he can.

[Pipinghot]

On 6/21/2018 at 12:02 AM, ehuhoser said:

I know your pain in the OP.  There are tips and tricks to get the buildings to change and act like what you want and take a lot, I mean sometimes a lot of patience to get it to work and I agree, something like this game is really the most difficult.

Yeah, agreed, which is exactly the problem. A building game should have really good mechanics for... building. It's essentially the first thing in the game that should have been completely intuitive, but instead we have years of videos from people helping the player base learn how to build in spite of the mechanics. When a large portion of the youtube content for ARK is based on 'how to get around the bad building mechanics' that's a huge red flag.