Spino is actually viable now

[Palenor]

On 3/21/2018 at 11:47 AM, CyanicEmber said:

they still have access to only bite attacks when underwater...

And exactly how would they be able to use the claw attack if they are using their feet to swim?

On 3/21/2018 at 11:47 AM, CyanicEmber said:

Sure we'll give it a variable stance but it'll waddle around like it has a potato in it's butt

Did you really expect a dino that is designed to walk on 4 legs to walk as smooth as a Raptor while on 2 legs?

A Bronto can also stand on two legs, but can't imagine it moving much at all while on two legs?

On 3/21/2018 at 11:47 AM, CyanicEmber said:

The whole point of this dino is that it is supposed to be viable as an amphibious mount, yet as it is... It's only effective on land.

Last time I checked it is viable in the water, swims fast, holds breath super long, dives/surfaces well. Not sure why/what you were expecting this to be better than Aquaman underwater? Heck, you can even fly out of the water with it when you surface.

The additional abilities have made the Spino something that most everyone is excited to see/use again.

Based on your post, I guess its safe to say you will be taking a pike to all of yours?

 

[Onimusha759]

10 hours ago, Lockjaw said:

Yeah I've seen you complain across multiple threads about how you thought that Rex was outshining other options. But what's done is done. I guess we've both said what we have to say on the topic. For the record I enjoy strategic choice rather than one option nullifying all others.

You been complaining since tlc 2 release the rex was getting outshined, but before tlc2 the rex was undisputed as arena king, and you werent complaining about all other options being outshined.  Your being a hypocrite.  As long as the rex was on top you were happy.  Your completely biased, you dont want anything but the rex on top.  The only difference between us is im unbias on the dino thats arena king, heck ill be watching for a spino replacement next lol.  The complaining you saw was over the giga being outshined by the rex which was happening because of a misunderstanding with the settings, which is fixed now.  You have to agree in game version of the giga shouldnt be outshined by anything power wise, i mean look at it.  Face the facts, yes theres options, yes other dinos can kill the boss(But all of this is preference, and only an option if your a fanboy.  There was still an arena king), no there has always been 1 outshining the others, its that way in about every game.  1 option is always best, and you delusional if you think not.  My question for you is if the better option is available why wouldnt you use it?  The fact everyone bred rexes is proof of this, including you.  So dont try to lob me in with a group when your a part of it just the same, you just dont want to move on.  The spino barely beats the rex 1v1 so it isnt to bad for the rex.  Now id be 100% on board with you with nerfing the mega(It just wrong), but the rex and spino are way closer saddle lvl and ability wise on land now which they should be.  1 has to be better tho, and the fact the devs are giving us a lil more power is awesome.  I do think maybe the spino saddle should be moved to 76 or so.  Lets not forget the rex has insane pvp ability with its roar, it forcefully dismounts riders of lower lvl dinos.

[Lockjaw]

4 hours ago, Onimusha759 said:

...

1) If there was a king of the boss arenas it would very likely be Theri, not Rex. Even if only because he's viable in all boss fights while the Rex struggles against the dragon.

2) Even if you're right and Rex is the undisputed king of the arenas, the fact is boss battles are not the entire game. I wasn't complaining that Spino is king of all-terrain mounts (in terms of power anyway), that Anky is king of metal harvesting, that Bary is king of cave runs, that Tuso is king of the ocean, that Theri is king of fiber and wood harvesting, that Quetzal is the only flying platform saddle available, that wyverns are lord of the skies, ect...

If Rex did have a niche as the boss arena king then that would put him on par with these other dinos who also have a niche. I don't see the problem there. But viability is not the only factor that affects how much a creature gets used in boss arenas. Most tribes already have established Rex bloodlines from when bosses could be pinned. Building up a new bloodline takes time and most people would rather just use what's already available. And as you've pointed out there's a lot of 'fanboys' who would just prefer to use Rex anyway.

3) I offered two suggestions on how Spino could have his share of the boss spotlight while still staying in his own lane. Three if you count the hypothetical situation that I put before you. And none of them necessarily involved any nerfs on the Spino. Not that I have any personal need to bring Spinos into the boss arenas, but I'm happy to look for a solution that satisfies everyone.

And I offered you plenty of opportunity to do the same, or even to explain to me why it's actually more balanced than I realize. You could have even suggested something entirely different like giving the boss arenas to Spino but giving Rex some other non boss-related utility to compensate. But instead you rejected the idea of finding a way to fit them both in and just went on about how it's time for the Rex yankees to lose to team Spino.

4) I'd like to remind you that the thing that actually got our debate started was when other people talked about how they think that WC tried to keep the balance between Rex and Spino and you responding by flying off the handle and calling everyone fanboys and Rex addicts for not thinking that Rex should just be completely kicked to the curb.

5) Just let it go. We're both just going to feel like we're talking to a brick wall here because our views on good game design are fundamentally different. I like creatures to have unique niches, or at least unique playstyles with their own pros and cons. You want one super creature that does everything and has no drawbacks, and you feel that it takes away from your progression if another creature does something better than your mount. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but we simply aren't going to see eye to eye.

[Onimusha759]

11 hours ago, Lockjaw said:

1) If there was a king of the boss arenas it would very likely be Theri, not Rex. Even if only because he's viable in all boss fights while the Rex struggles against the dragon.

2) Even if you're right and Rex is the undisputed king of the arenas, the fact is boss battles are not the entire game. I wasn't complaining that Spino is king of all-terrain mounts (in terms of power anyway), that Anky is king of metal harvesting, that Bary is king of cave runs, that Tuso is king of the ocean, that Theri is king of fiber and wood harvesting, that Quetzal is the only flying platform saddle available, that wyverns are lord of the skies, ect...

If Rex did have a niche as the boss arena king then that would put him on par with these other dinos who also have a niche. I don't see the problem there. But viability is not the only factor that affects how much a creature gets used in boss arenas. Most tribes already have established Rex bloodlines from when bosses could be pinned. Building up a new bloodline takes time and most people would rather just use what's already available. And as you've pointed out there's a lot of 'fanboys' who would just prefer to use Rex anyway.

3) I offered two suggestions on how Spino could have his share of the boss spotlight while still staying in his own lane. Three if you count the hypothetical situation that I put before you. And none of them necessarily involved any nerfs on the Spino. Not that I have any personal need to bring Spinos into the boss arenas, but I'm happy to look for a solution that satisfies everyone.

And I offered you plenty of opportunity to do the same, or even to explain to me why it's actually more balanced than I realize. You could have even suggested something entirely different like giving the boss arenas to Spino but giving Rex some other non boss-related utility to compensate. But instead you rejected the idea of finding a way to fit them both in and just went on about how it's time for the Rex yankees to lose to team Spino.

4) I'd like to remind you that the thing that actually got our debate started was when other people talked about how they think that WC tried to keep the balance between Rex and Spino and you responding by flying off the handle and calling everyone fanboys and Rex addicts for not thinking that Rex should just be completely kicked to the curb.

5) Just let it go. We're both just going to feel like we're talking to a brick wall here because our views on good game design are fundamentally different. I like creatures to have unique niches, or at least unique playstyles with their own pros and cons. You want one super creature that does everything and has no drawbacks, and you feel that it takes away from your progression if another creature does something better than your mount. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that, but we simply aren't going to see eye to eye.

Actually i never rejected the idea of rex getting a new role, if he became king of something else is cool to me.  I called em fanboys because i wanted the mechanic to work right and threw no we can have it work right because "rex, enough said".  That turned the whole thing into a rex vs spino war which i never wanted in a topic about happy spino rocks now.  Before the update spino kinda sucked, now they are both really good.  The only reason you got involved was because the rex is beaten, barely.  My reference was because you were crying about the rex, idc which is better, i just want the 1 that is.  Its like picking between a venom or veyron, both are awesome, but the venom out performs it a lil, so i want it.  Your own point of view contradicts yourself, so people wont use spinos because they have ready rexes, or theriz, so why the heck are you and the other 2 giving me a hard time over fixing the spinos AI to keep it from dropping randomly out of biped.  Its comparable to a samurai sheathing his sword and trying to fight with his fists in the middle of a sword fight, or a chainsaw that stalls half way thru a cut.  Looking at it its pretty darn stupid youd leave "combat mode" in combat.  If majority of people will stick with the rex then you have your balance already, why you craping on the others who do like it?  People talk balance but the game isnt balanced, its a typical rpg, regardless of a survival label thrown on it.  The rex and spino are more balanced now to each other then they ever been.  We both know your arguing because your a fanboy of a rex, not because you want balance.  You never openly gave me an opportunity to give a plausible alternative for the rex when im being forced to defend my own position against you, all because i wanted the AI to be tweaked to not destroy the actual viability the spino has now.  I like the idea of every single dino filling a role, we agree on that.  Truly i dont think our preference on good game design is all that off, we are just getting to personal with a single dino.  Balance is ok, im cool with that, but as is the game has you progressing and making others obsolete.  Putting a dino in my path better then my mount doesnt block my progress, it adds a new step for me to climb.  The original argument here was i wanted a behavior option to allow the spino AI to not bug out in combat, and it was countered by rex fanboys whos argument was its better bugged because of the poor rex.  The rex is still just as good as before, it wasnt nerfed.  I just want my new spino to not bug in a fight.  And this entire time you have been complaining about the spino, only because it beats the rex.  I dont consider theriz king because it wins due to an item not because of ability, kinda cheap to me.  All dinos should have a use, we agree, but not all do, some are literally stepping stones right now.  We could give the rex a new role, all i have to go with right now is what i got and what i have is a game that isnt allowing that balance in it, its not possible yet and probably wont be.  As much as we argue i actually kinda like you, you do have good thoughts and passion lol.  Your to personal to the rex tho, if it wasnt for that wed probably get along.  I only rejected your suggestions because it was basically nerf the spino again so rex can win.  Rex will never be kicked to the curb, and i already explained what both my original arguments were.  THe spino is viable now, but you dont have to use him, the rwx is available with his same power, it hasnt took anything from your rex, so why do you hate it?  Why do you guys want to shut my idea down if your rwx is still just as good boss battler.  Only thing that changed is spino can actually fight now, just like the rex, so why do you hate it?  Now all the big dinos can be used in boss fights, 1s not left out, thats equal opportunity, thats balanced.  But if this biped bug isnt fixed then its not as balanced in that regard, because spino is still iffy.  Outside of that he loses in aquatic combat, doesnt harvest greatly, and is comparable to rex on land for safety and wins that fight barely.  I dont exactly see where theres a problem, seems pretty balanced.  You have your option, do you want glass cannon or tank, either works and is almost equal when 1v1, compared to rex  just destros spino.  Seems you were ok with that Mr. Balance but now that they are basically equal you have a problem with them being balanced.  Sry to every1 for this wall, my mind was having issues focusing so my info wasnt as clean.

[Lockjaw]

17 hours ago, Onimusha759 said:

You never openly gave me an opportunity to give a plausible alternative for the rex 

Fair enough. How would you balance it if it were up to you?

9 hours ago, Onimusha759 said:

I only rejected your suggestions because it was basically nerf the spino again so rex can win

My suggestions were create a new semi-aquatic battle arena specifically for Spino, give Rex the ability to draw aggro on himself so that he can truly take on the role of a tank and effectively team up with Spino in the boss arenas, or just buff the Rex's stats.

I did say that he should win when away from water, but that still leaves the door open for Spino to win when he does have the hydrated buff. Which in itself is still very iffy, considering that water is pretty much everywhere when you aren't on SE and considering that Spino already has the advantage of being semi-aquatic.

All that said, I will admit that I need to do my own tests before I can say for sure that there is even an issue here. Youtube videos and forum talk might not be giving the complete picture.

[Chris9546]

It's actually pretty decent underwater too, might be able to kill a low level alpha mosa or something w/ like 5-6 of them

[Onimusha759]

7 hours ago, Lockjaw said:

Fair enough. How would you balance it if it were up to you?

My suggestions were create a new semi-aquatic battle arena specifically for Spino, give Rex the ability to draw aggro on himself so that he can truly take on the role of a tank and effectively team up with Spino in the boss arenas, or just buff the Rex's stats.

I did say that he should win when away from water, but that still leaves the door open for Spino to win when he does have the hydrated buff. Which in itself is still very iffy, considering that water is pretty much everywhere when you aren't on SE and considering that Spino already has the advantage of being semi-aquatic.

All that said, I will admit that I need to do my own tests before I can say for sure that there is even an issue here. Youtube videos and forum talk might not be giving the complete picture.

The mixed team idea you had is actually decent, but i wouldnt change the spino as is except for the better AI.  As is most wilds aggro on a specific creature and tend to stick in that spot, it be easy to send rexes in 1st to draw aggro, then have the glass cannon spino shred from the rear.  If the boss does change targets itll probably be 1 of the rexes in front of it.  Ive done quite a few boss battles and only remember 1 time it turned around.  As is its also rather balanced, you can choose a tank or glass cannon, whatever your preference, and run with it.  For the 1v1 fight, majority of rexes dont spawn near water leading to a 1v1 with spino victorious by a hair(The vidoes show spino hp after the fight, its almost dead).  Thats about equal and obviously 1 has to die, no draws in ark.  Like i said its gone from spino having no real role to being able to fight like all the other big boys.  Thats technically more balanced and more options.  Consider water viability the shark dmg is on par in water and easier to get to(Lvl 40ish saddle for shark), plus faster and no oxygen.  As is the shark is the raptor of the water so its pretty shameful for spino to be beat out by him.  If you want to consider the jack of all trades you 1st need the spino to be a jack in all areas.  The jack is the 3rd strongest in the highest cards.  So the trash of the ocean is flat out superior puts spino at a 2 card basically for aquatic use, not exactly progressive or making sense for a top tier dino.  The devs saw this and switched the spino more into combat because youd have to compensate for its weakness in water.  With the water buff the spino might beat a shark now, but i doubt the plesio or dunkleo.  Im cool with new abilities for rex or new role, but i cant exactly come up with realistic ideas.  As the game is youd have to go outside the box with new odd ball abilities to create utility, parasaur for example lol.  Theres so many dinos and new 1s coming, combined with the progressive style of the game making things obsolete as you go doesn't help this.  Btw what lil the rwx lost was gained in its tlc with its new pvp dismounting roar.   And for the record, if the rex was buffed instead of the spino i still would of been happy, more power lol.  But thinking balance, the spino was a better move.

[d1nk]

10 hours ago, Lockjaw said:

Fair enough. How would you balance it if it were up to you?

My suggestions were create a new semi-aquatic battle arena specifically for Spino, give Rex the ability to draw aggro on himself so that he can truly take on the role of a tank and effectively team up with Spino in the boss arenas, or just buff the Rex's stats.

I did say that he should win when away from water, but that still leaves the door open for Spino to win when he does have the hydrated buff. Which in itself is still very iffy, considering that water is pretty much everywhere when you aren't on SE and considering that Spino already has the advantage of being semi-aquatic.

All that said, I will admit that I need to do my own tests before I can say for sure that there is even an issue here. Youtube videos and forum talk might not be giving the complete picture.

I like your direction of making rex more of a general purpose tank. I skimmed through but i figure its via its roar? Maybe a defence / aggro debuff. (Only to the rex, not allies - yuty territory) Could be useful outside boss arenas aswell. Imagine fighting a wild rex, battle is close and he roars giving him extra armour. Better than pooping your pants 

 

Could also be used as a taming tool, aggro to rex and shoot with xbow etc

 

I support the ai stance change on spino though. I doubt wc will make an arena with standing water, logical next niche boss will be fully underwater i figure. 

[Onimusha759]

2 hours ago, d1nk said:

doubt wc will make an arena with standing water, logical next niche boss will be fully underwater i figure. 

I too like the general purpose tank idea, but the water arena raises flags.  Boss fights are pretty long at times, youd need multiple scuba possibly, not a big deal.  The real problems is dino oxygen, youd need to sacrifice tank/power ability just to stay in the fight increasing fight time.  No yuty or dao making fight way harder and longer.  If your in a hands on tribe your best option is the harpoon gun...Rpg tip anyone, say after you unlock the rpg?  On that note id like a shock dart tip too.  Even with the hands on explosive spear dart the fight would be nearly impossible without fully aquatic dinos and they would be band because of weight limit.  Idk about the dunkleo, might be to heavy, but his natural armor could replace the yuty defense.  His offense buff be missing tho and that would make time very strained.  If there was an underwater boss it likely be the kraken, bosses spawn normal versions of them...Tusos...I know we see why thats a bad idea.

[Lockjaw]

On 4/15/2018 at 12:55 AM, d1nk said:

I skimmed through but i figure its via its roar? Maybe a defence / aggro debuff. (Only to the rex, not allies - yuty territory) Could be useful outside boss arenas aswell. Imagine fighting a wild rex, battle is close and he roars giving him extra armour. Better than pooping your pants 

Exactly

On 4/15/2018 at 3:40 AM, Onimusha759 said:

...

If they did create an aquatic arena they'd just need to balance the boss around the lack of support dinos. Frankly though this whole conversation is moot. I don't think Rex or Spino will be getting any more major rebalances at this point.

[d1nk]

38 minutes ago, Lockjaw said:

Exactly

If they did create an aquatic arena they'd just need to balance the boss around the lack of support dinos. Frankly though this whole conversation is moot. I don't think Rex or Spino will be getting any more major rebalances at this point.

I agree, frankly most discussions here on SA.com are moot because devs only read and reapond (mostly) to reddit. 

 

We can still discuss and hope  

[Onimusha759]

2 hours ago, Lockjaw said:

Exactly

If they did create an aquatic arena they'd just need to balance the boss around the lack of support dinos. Frankly though this whole conversation is moot. I don't think Rex or Spino will be getting any more major rebalances at this point.

Agreed

 

1 hour ago, d1nk said:

I agree, frankly most discussions here on SA.com are moot because devs only read and reapond (mostly) to reddit. 

 

We can still discuss and hope  

Agreed

[Palenor]

14 hours ago, Onimusha759 said:

frankly most discussions here on SA.com are moot because devs only read and reapond (mostly) to reddit. 

Wrong.

They have no need to respond to everything here, they know we know they read them all.

Reddit on the other hand they respond so folks know they are reading them there.

[Palenor]

On 4/11/2018 at 8:32 PM, SwishPapaSweets said:

Ark Spino simply doesn't have nearly the health of the Ark rex (10k full imprint spino vs 21k full imprint rex on my breeds) spino might be able to out dps but it'll die alot faster than a rex would and even if they let unmonted spino go bipedal the AI would be slower than a player mounted spino. 

It really does not make a difference for the Monkey fights, we have run those with tamed Rexes that had under 20k (I think we had a few in there with only 16K health) and they survive the Alpha monkey consistently, even with the lower Health pool of Spinos, they can hit 20K easy.

Brood mother is the same unless you are running Alpha Brood, 25K health will win the day every time, again something easy to obtain with the Spino health pool.

[SwishPapaSweets]

39 minutes ago, Palenor said:

It really does not make a difference for the Monkey fights, we have run those with tamed Rexes that had under 20k (I think we had a few in there with only 16K health) and they survive the Alpha monkey consistently, even with the lower Health pool of Spinos, they can hit 20K easy.

Brood mother is the same unless you are running Alpha Brood, 25K health will win the day every time, again something easy to obtain with the Spino health pool.

True but my point was it had a higher health pool than the spino and still can go higher if needed to

My spino line maxed out health at 30k atm with ok damage output still

[d1nk]

2 hours ago, Palenor said:

Wrong.

They have no need to respond to everything here, they know we know they read them all.

Reddit on the other hand they respond so folks know they are reading them there.

You must be new around here! They dont respond here  

 

Im not looking at a debate.. im sure other people who have been around awhile can back me up as well. The devs never really respond here. They have been way more active on Reddit in the last month than they ever have here. 

 

Dont let this lead you to believe im bashing them.. im not. Its just a simple fact. I love the devs and this game, my demeaner here on forums and reddit clearly shows that

[Onimusha759]

1 hour ago, d1nk said:

You must be new around here! They dont respond here  

 

Im not looking at a debate.. im sure other people who have been around awhile can back me up as well. The devs never really respond here. They have been way more active on Reddit in the last month than they ever have here. 

 

Dont let this lead you to believe im bashing them.. im not. Its just a simple fact. I love the devs and this game, my demeaner here on forums and reddit clearly shows that

Your 100% right, even if they do read the bug reports i have no way to tell.  I feel like they dont listen at all or read anything.  It be cool if the topics would show a dev at least looked at it.  Jat and chris only respond when something could turn into a legal problem it seems.  Like them lying about the leatherbound dossier or the false advertisement of 1 of the season passes on ps4 NA sale.  And when you get them caught in there own words they simply disappear again.  "Check the ps4 players ripped off" topic and the surviver chest without game topic for proof.  They should realky implement a dev has seen this topic notification on a topic, i feel it would help player to dev relations a lil, at least ease some tension

[Onimusha759]

Hey guys, as promised i took my 51/51 spino against my 51/50 rex.  I did 4 tests.  Incline test 1 was rex with high ground, rex won with around 1k hp left (it has 15k total).  Incline test 2 was spino height advantage, spino won with 2k hp left (it only has 9k max).  Test 3 was level, spino won with around 450 hp.  Test 4 was level with 25 armor saddles, spino won with 500-600 hp left(Otter bit before i claimed lol).  All tests allowed the rex to attack 1st, giving a free hit.  No water was involved in any test.

[DarthaNyan]

23 minutes ago, Onimusha759 said:

Hey guys, as promised i took my 51/51 spino against my 51/50 rex.  I did 4 tests.  Incline test 1 was rex with high ground, rex won with around 1k hp left (it has 15k total).  Incline test 2 was spino height advantage, spino won with 2k hp left (it only has 9k max).  Test 3 was level, spino won with around 450 hp.  Test 4 was level with 25 armor saddles, spino won with 500-600 hp left(Otter bit before i claimed lol).  All tests allowed the rex to attack 1st, giving a free hit.  No water was involved in any test.

*insert any "i have high ground.jpg" here*

[AdligerAdler]

Tip on how to keep your spino on 2 legs when unmounted:

Press the stand on 2 legs button and the dismount button almost at the same time. Can take some attempts.

(Almost same thing with leaving ravager on zip line when unmounted. Jump on zip and dismount almost at same time.)

Some people probably already figured this out but I don't think the majority knows.

Wonder if it still stands on 2 legs when I log in tomorrow.

[Onimusha759]

3 hours ago, DarthaNyan said:

*insert any "i have high ground.jpg" here*

By high ground i meant a simple slope.  Not a mountain slope, but a lil more then a beach incline.  If 90 is flat its about a 60.  Cant do pics on here forums arnt ps4 friendly

[Migol]

On 4/27/2018 at 5:31 PM, AdligerAdler said:

Tip on how to keep your spino on 2 legs when unmounted:

Press the stand on 2 legs button and the dismount button almost at the same time. Can take some attempts.

(Almost same thing with leaving ravager on zip line when unmounted. Jump on zip and dismount almost at same time.)

Some people probably already figured this out but I don't think the majority knows.

Wonder if it still stands on 2 legs when I log in tomorrow.

Curious as to the result?   I got mine to be "standing" but I didn't dismount immediately, and when I came back later it was on all fours.     The real question though would be if it stays on two legs for bosses if this is done before a boss teleport.    If it does then Rexes may be obsolete after all.

 

edit: Made a small thread about it btw, but I did test in Broodmother Gamma, it's entirely possible to stand in the "Stream" and get the water buff up 100% of the time, so there's a definite and huge advantage to ridden spinos there.

[Onimusha759]

You know what just dawned on me, why do spinos not get the hydrated buff when it rains?