Glider Suit Nerf

[GP]

3 minutes ago, Zederia said:

explain

Because gliders are not turrets, nor are gliders contributing to server lag, nor are gliders being limited to a certain number within a vicinity. The glider nerf is related to PvP, it has nothing to do with turrets. so lets move on to glider nerf as this thread is about.

[Eli]

The glider nerf was done to balance pvp as well as fix certain exploits that impact both pvp and pve.

[Zederia]

12 minutes ago, GP said:

Because gliders are not turrets, nor are gliders contributing to server lag, nor are gliders being limited to a certain number within a vicinity. The glider nerf is related to PvP, it has nothing to do with turrets. so lets move on to glider nerf as this thread is about.

So... Turrets, which are PURELY PvP, and the glider nerf being PvP related... gee.. just contradicted yourself. HALVING the speed due to something to do with PvP, sounds like it has something to do with certain things not being able to track it. And blasting a 3x damage modifier on the armor just for wearing one? And the point of a cooldown on gliding? there's not a point, just a "here, wait some more"

 Projectiles do 3x damage to the durability of chest pieces while a glider is attached < turrets use projectiles, PvP using any gun does the same
- Added logic to translate damage from player to their glider <same as above

  - Added 3s cooldown between glides <Just introduces a "Sit and wait now" mechanic, this is not needed at all, as it's not a damage item. Why was this added?

- Lowered glide speed by 40% <This is just for tracking/rendering, as again, turrets can't handle the original speed (and ARK has its issues with rendering bases properly, even on high-end PCs like mine) It didn't need to be halved. I don't know the exact speed of the glider, but I do know the speed of the Griffin, for example, and they put it at 135% static. this is at 60% static. 60% is stupid slow, why was it not set at 90%, 80%, and worked DOWN until it was right for EVERYBODY? the 10% dino nerf got such a response they HAD to increase it, they went from 10% to (I think it's currently 25%.. might be 17%) but still almost doubled what they "wanted" it to be.

[Zederia]

22 minutes ago, Eli said:

The glider nerf was done to balance pvp as well as fix certain exploits that impact both pvp and pve.

and it was WAY over-done, that's the point.

 

And those exploits are still pretty easy to perform no matter. the Ptera exploit still exists and it doesn't even require movement

 

and just to separate this better:

 

 Projectiles do 3x damage to the durability of chest pieces while a glider is attached < turrets use projectiles, PvP using any gun does the same. Not to mention 3x damage is INSANE that means if they do 20 points normally, they do 60, and um... the lowest damage is 47 on the AR. which becomes 141 and the AR is not a one-shot weapon. in a few seconds, you can eat through a chest piece and that's the LOWEST damage a ranged weapon does.

 

if it was 1.5 that means 47 becomes 75 and that would still eat through armor, but not nearly as bad. If the devs played like we did they would see this, but they don't. not even close

[LouSpowells]

5 hours ago, Zederia said:

and it was WAY over-done, that's the point.

No shinola, Sherlock. Everyone (including Wildcard) agrees that the initial rebalance was too harsh. That's why they're adjusting the balance to roll back the harshness. Your "point" is a point it seems like everyone agrees with.

If you're arguing in hopes that Glider Suits will go back to the way they were at launch, you're wasting your time. The mechanics were buggy and exploitative....which is why I notified them before making a how-to video on how to best utilize the "features" of the glider suit. Feel free to scapegoat me.

 

[Zederia]

3 hours ago, LouSpowells said:

 That's why they're adjusting the balance to roll back the harshness.

 

right.. 10 s to 3s cooldown, that''s what was so "harsh" and the only thing, right?

[LouSpowells]

On 3/9/2018 at 8:35 PM, Zederia said:

right.. 10 s to 3s cooldown, that''s what was so "harsh" and the only thing, right?

So you want me to address all the things instead of just the one thing they rolled back? Well, if it makes you feel better:

IMO, 10 seconds was too much. From my perspective, 3 is not bad. I'd have gone with 5 myself, if only because 3 seconds is nothing if you're pitching up after gathering speed from a dive. If you swap glider suits in the air after a quick climb from a dive, you loose about as much altitude as you would floating on a parachute for that 3 seconds. 

The glide speed reduction makes sense. It makes very little sense balance-wise if a tall ladder and a glider suit is a faster way to get around than most birds would be. In many cases the glider at the old normal speeds was fast enough that even poor latency would make shooting people down more luck than skill. The previous speeds are still attainable, they're just not the standard pace anymore. To me that was a necessary change. I would have preferred 25-30% but I, as you, do not get to make those decisions.

Extra damage to armor with wingsuits is something that should have been there from the get go. That said, I think it should be 2x from all sources to add some incentive to not have one on all the time. Glider suits add a tremendous amount of mobility, and up until these changes it offered little if any negative aspects outside of a little extra weight and an inability to hide in a bush. I think 2x damage to the chest at all times (including dinos trying to eat you) is a much better balance.

So, to sum up the changes in my opinion:
Re-deploy timer - Was too long, now it's not enough
Glide speed reduc - Needed to be slowed, but it's 10-15% too slow
Armor - Chest armor should take 2x damage from all sources when the glider is equipped.

From my perspective it's closer to balance in two tries than any other balance passes they've done. Do I like all of the changes or the percentages/durations used? No, but what am I going to do? Get angry and shout about it in the forums and call the developers names and tell any player who suggests compromise or middle ground that they're lousy fanboy whitenight tools? That's just not my style...but if that changes you'll be the first person I come to for pointers. 

 

[MikeLitorus]

just a side note, its pretty easy to get around the 3x durability loss by just keeping the glider suit in your inventory and not on your chest, it takes like .2 seconds to equip, with practice you can do it on just a jump, and shift drag unequip when your done gliding. 

getting good at this is going to help you in pvp situations. 

as for my opinion they nerfed the glider suit about to what it should have been, was too crazy moving like classic flyers. 

still such an op item that it will be needed all the time for pvp. 

also shouldnt someone whos flying over your base with rocket lauchers and flame thrower and cluster bombs, which will wreck a base pretty quick be easy to shoot down? its the most op vantage point there is, being in the air, constantly moving, and able to use any weapon that doesn't require aiming, extremely effectively. 

[Ayzix]

For me, this nurture was an unpleasant change, although I must admit that some of the changes have made some balance ... But at the same time this nerf introduced an imbalance.
Let's start with the fact that the game can be divided into four sections of the balance that you need to consider:
PvE
PvP
PvEvP / PvPvE
The game itself

In PvE, the glider is a means of quickly moving around the map, you are not threatened by other players and buildings, only mobs ... so reducing speed, recharging time and increased damage to the glider make it almost useless thing in this mode. If a thing is useless all the time or most of the time then it is not balanced.

In PvP, the glider is a means of rapid maneuver attack, avoidance of threat, quick movement, reconnaissance, carrying of things, means of retreat, if you proceed from this, the speed reduction removes most of the glider's purpose in PvP, leaving only the functions of carrying things, avoiding threat and reconnaissance, an increase in damage to the glider eliminates the function of "avoiding the threat," the availability of recharge time greatly reduces the possibility of reconnaissance, in the end, only the carry-over function remains, but it is better performed by the quetzal ...

In PvEvP / PvPvE, everything is the same, but with one feature, the modes change in time and the usefulness of the glider in modes is quite different! People will not use the glider because the time interval for changing the game mode needs to be used as efficiently as possible, which in the case of gliders is not realistic.

In game mechanics, the glider is important, because at first only the glider will save you for aberration, it is one of the most useful things in the early game, without them you will not go far. Since there are no flying creatures (except featherlight) on the map, you will have to walk mostly on foot (there is no chance to escape from Drake), on the glider (you could escape from some of the dangers if the speed of flight were not so low) or on the ravager (this is very dangerous, since almost any large animal will easily kill you), unless you tame large and powerful animals such as Karkinos, Megalosaurus, Spinosaurus, or Drake, you will be forced to go to resources in dangerous areas without the possibility of insurance. That is, if you notice Megalosaurus - you die, if you notice Karkinos - you die, if Bulbdog discharges - you die, if you notice Arthropleura and get into you, then your hazard suit will break and you will die ... and all of them for the fact that you can not avoid the danger due to the lack of maneuverability and speed that you are given gliders.

P.S. - I do not know English well and could translate something wrong, so if I made a mistake / wrote incomprehensibly, correct me / ask me about what interests you.

[MancoBr]

That makes perfect sense. Thank you

[KingGalahad]

On 2018-03-09 at 12:17 PM, Eli said:

The glider nerf was done to balance pvp as well as fix certain exploits that impact both pvp and pve.

So once again, pve suffers due to a pvp nerf. Maybe it is time to actually treat each mode differently, rather than force all the pvp needed nerfs on pve

[LouSpowells]

Nevermind. Just realized who I was quoting.
 

[DarthaNyan]

43 minutes ago, KingGalahad said:

So once again, pve suffers due to a pvp nerf. Maybe it is time to actually treat each mode differently, rather than force all the pvp needed nerfs on pve

Well, since PvE mode has less threats than PvP its logical to have PvE part harder on PvE servers to keep things interesting. So it'll be MORE nerfs on PvE should they go separate. Beware of your wishes.

[isu]

6 hours ago, DarthaNyan said:

Well, since PvE mode has less threats than PvP its logical to have PvE part harder on PvE servers to keep things interesting. So it'll be MORE nerfs on PvE should they go separate. Beware of your wishes.

Yeah, maybe even lower resources rates, so its bigger challenge. Or even increasing breeding times.

[Milsurp]

On 3/7/2018 at 10:57 AM, Zederia said:

oh look, I was right^

 

 

Ayup. Playerbase: "Forced cooldown on a mechanical thingy on which life depends is dumb and bad, pls find some other way."  WC: "Oh, too much cooldown? ok we'll lower it, but leave it in. Fixed!"

I don't *want* to use mods, I want all the right decisions for the right reasons to make it into the game. But dang if I'm not being forced to use mods and make major tweaks just to keep fun in the game.

Well, if I had it installed that is. Because of all of the time that correcting these decisions takes to maintain some fun in the game, and because of my concern over these kinds of decisions, I just chose to not go with a vid card which will play Ark (GTX 690). Instead, I'm building a budget pc into a budget gaming machine with a GTX 960, which won't push Ark worth a crap.

So I am actually off the game as of tonight and will go play Subnautica and other games. Maybe I'll be back? But having that effort worth the trouble would take a lot of WC (or some awesome modder) fixing bad decisions so I don't have to.

Still might pop back to kibitz though, I do get bored easily  

[invincibleqc]

5 minutes ago, Milsurp said:

So I am actually off the game as of tonight and will go play Subnautica and other games. Maybe I'll be back? But having that effort worth the trouble would take a lot of WC (or some awesome modder) fixing bad decisions so I don't have to.

There's already mods that revert the Glider changes. Classic Glider, for example:

Quote

-Projectiles DO NOT do 3x damage to durability of chest pieces while this glider is attached - Pending Review
-NO added logic to translate damage from player to their glider
-NO added 10s cooldown between glides
-NO lowered glide speed by 40%

 

[Zederia]

28 minutes ago, invincibleqc said:

There's already mods that revert the Glider changes. Classic Glider, for example:

 

let me quote @Milsurp :

I don't *want* to use mods, I want all the right decisions for the right reasons to make it into the game. But dang if I'm not being forced to use mods and make major tweaks just to keep fun in the game.

[invincibleqc]

4 minutes ago, Zederia said:

let me quote @Milsurp :

I don't *want* to use mods, I want all the right decisions for the right reasons to make it into the game. But dang if I'm not being forced to use mods and make major tweaks just to keep fun in the game.

Let me quote @invincibleqc:

34 minutes ago, invincibleqc said:

41 minutes ago, Milsurp said:

So I am actually off the game as of tonight and will go play Subnautica and other games. Maybe I'll be back? But having that effort worth the trouble would take a lot of WC (or some awesome modder) fixing bad decisions so I don't have to.

There's already mods that revert the Glider changes. Classic Glider, for example:

 

[KingGalahad]

59 minutes ago, invincibleqc said:

There's already mods that revert the Glider changes. Classic Glider, for example:

 

It's too bad they don't have mods like this on console. 

[LouSpowells]

16 hours ago, KingGalahad said:

It's too bad they don't have mods like this on console. 

Is this something you blame Wildcard for? 

 

[ChargingParacerParacer]

On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 2:23 PM, KingGalahad said:

So once again, pve suffers due to a pvp nerf. Maybe it is time to actually treat each mode differently, rather than force all the pvp needed nerfs on pve

Only real way to make them do that unfortunately is to never give them any of your money until they actually start doing so, and to keep publicly calling them on gheir BS.

[Guest DJRone89]

21 minutes ago, ChargingParacerParacer said:

Only real way to make them do that unfortunately is to never give them any of your money until they actually start doing so, and to keep publicly calling them on gheir BS.

PvE mode was added to the game after its initial release to early access. Had PvE been in mind from the start, then maybe they would have had 2 separate builds. But that’s not was done and the reality is that the only differences between the two modes are a couple ini settings.

[ChargingParacerParacer]

If you are going to bother doing something do it properly, otherwise don't bother doing it at all so people don't waste their money.

[Ranger1]

Hey, this looks like fun.  Let me quote someone to make my point as well.

21 hours ago, Milsurp said:

So I am actually off the game as of tonight and will go play Subnautica and other games. Maybe I'll be back? But having that effort worth the trouble would take a lot of WC (or some awesome modder) fixing bad decisions so I don't have to.

Good point!  Lets balance the PVE aspect of ARK separately from PVP and make it's game play more like Subnautica.  In that game the environment is far more deadly, mobility in general is far more restrictive, and your ability to defend yourself against hazards depends more on your ability to avoid it than to outrun or out fight them.  Sure, it's double the workload to balance and maintain those two game modes separately, but the payoff would be you wouldn't need to worry about things like a glider suit anymore... because no mode of transport available to you would allow you (even temporarily) to be completely safe from attack (like aerial transport in PVE does now).  That means that the flyer nerf would no longer be a point of contention as well.

Considerations about the relative strengths and weaknesses of your tames in combat, for the most part your weapons, and of course your armor... no longer a problem.  Your primary motivation becomes surviving the environment by avoiding, deflecting, or distracting... not combat or simply flying above potential harm.  Personally I think that a far more deadly environment, with no ability to simply fly or glide away wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.  But that combined with a distinct lack of being able to defend yourself on occasion would likely not prove to be too popular.

Now I think Subnautica is a great game, however it is a game that is designed around a completely different play style.  You need to understand that if you want ARK PVE to be more like Subnautica you would almost assuredly lose the very aspects of ARK that you are arguing you would like buffed.  To me that sounds like the very definition of a "bad decision".

[OrisRas]

On ‎3‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:01 PM, LouSpowells said:

Armor - Chest armor should take 2x damage from all sources when the glider is equipped

why should your armor take more damage if you add the glider skin? youre adding armor (cosmetically) not taking it away.