breeding Breeding and mutations

[SirPeter]

So this isn't really that hard it just take a long freaking time.. depending on your rates and luck? Is it any easier or beneficial to always try to have the male with the target stats and blindly tame females so that way if you don't need them they can still be used for kibble/eggs?

[SirPeter]

4 minutes ago, isu said:

What you mean thats its over?

One parent can mutate stat of other parent. So you can go much more than 20/20. Thats why separating will only slow your progress.

So you can mutate past the 20? Is that what you mean?

[isu]

Some stats on official are almost 70 and I don't think that all started on 50 and more.

[SirPeter]

3 minutes ago, isu said:

Some stats on official are almost 70 and I don't think that all started on 50 and more.

What do you mean here? How far past 20 mutations you can go?? Sorry I'm confused.

[SingleSidedPCB]

5 minutes ago, isu said:

What you mean thats its over?

One parent can mutate stat of other parent. So you can go much more than 20/20. Thats why separating will only slow your progress.

well, he said his goal was 20..

5 minutes ago, SirPeter said:

So this isn't really that hard it just take a long freaking time.. depending on your rates and luck? Is it any easier or beneficial to always try to have the male with the target stats and blindly tame females so that way if you don't need them they can still be used for kibble/eggs?

I always use my non mutated all stat females for the process, though i guess this doesn't really matter it means i keep less dinos around having the health/stam/oxy/food/weight/melee combined into a clean pair i can store away safely. it also makes it easier to spot if a baby has a mutation by its level increasing by 2, and what stat mutated because after awhile you'll have them memorized. maybe you'll get a mutation in weight along the way and decide to set it aside and breed it into the final result later.

3 minutes ago, SirPeter said:

So you can mutate past the 20? Is that what you mean?

Yup, that's what he means. it's been hinted at in this thread, but with all this heavy info flying around you may have missed it though the difficulty in getting a mutation in the stat you want past 20 is twice as hard because only 1 parent can mutate the stat instead of 2.

[SirPeter]

4 minutes ago, SingleSidedPCB said:

well, he said his goal was 20..

I always use my non mutated all stat females for the process, though i guess this doesn't really matter it means i keep less dinos around having the health/stam/oxy/food/weight/melee combined into a clean pair i can store away safely. it also makes it easier to spot if a baby has a mutation by its level increasing by 2, and what stat mutated because after awhile you'll have them memorized. maybe you'll get a mutation in weight along the way and decide to set it aside and breed it into the final result later.

Yup, that's what he means. it's been hinted at in this thread, but with all this heavy info flying around you may have missed it though the difficulty in getting a mutation in the stat you want past 20 is twice as hard because only 1 parent can mutate the stat instead of 2.

I'm not going to have any head left if it keeps getting blown. I'll reiterate what I said in my OP. You may need to talk to me like a child. Yes I read it but it didn't stick about going past 20. I don't care to read between lines much as it leads to miscommunication and prefer to say what I mean and mean what I say rather than hint and hope it gets picked up. haha sorry.

So my first goal in this example is to get this awesome rex. I get all three fully mutated lines. Breed together to get [ONE OR A PAIR?] with all three stats. Then I can start all over again but this time with reduced chances to increase my stats?

[banggugyangu]

5 minutes ago, SirPeter said:

What do you mean here? How far past 20 mutations you can go?? Sorry I'm confused.

This is a deep, dark, frightening rabbit hole.

Here's how it works.  If you breed a fully mutated baby with a dino that is completely clean, there's a chance for mutation on the clean parent's side.  The resulting baby would the come out with 1/20 on the clean side and 40+/20 on the fully mutated side.  That's 41 mutations.  If you then breed again with a clean parent using THAT baby,  you can get another mutation on the clean side for 1/20 on the clean side and 41/20 on the overmutated side.

There IS a limit to this, though.  Each mutation is +2 levels to a stat.  (It's important to choose which stat mutations you keep for the reasons I'll be giving you now) - 

The limit is simply this:  When a dino reaches level 450 or higher on official servers, the next server restart will despawn that dino altogether.

Because of this hard cap to dino level, the highest level a baby can be born and be safe is level 378.  After fully leveling that baby (+71 levels) you'll be level 449 and just under that threshold.  Because of this, your ultimate cap to mutations is 186 (a level 5 mutated for +372 levels in a single stat).

[SingleSidedPCB]

4 minutes ago, SirPeter said:

I'm not going to have any head left if it keeps getting blown. I'll reiterate what I said in my OP. You may need to talk to me like a child. Yes I read it but it didn't stick about going past 20. I don't care to read between lines much as it leads to miscommunication and prefer to say what I mean and mean what I say rather than hint and hope it gets picked up. haha sorry.

So my first goal in this example is to get this awesome rex. I get all three fully mutated lines. Breed together to get [ONE OR A PAIR?] with all three stats. Then I can start all over again but this time with reduced chances to increase my stats?

you would mutate your separate lines as far as your willing to go first. 20 mutations is +40 levels, so if you started out with 40 levels you'd now have 80. that's waaay overkill for anything you'd need in ark

you would want a combined stat+mutations breeding pair in the end, so you could "clone" the stats indefinitely onto new rexes. kind of like having a blueprint.

[SirPeter]

8 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

This is a deep, dark, frightening rabbit hole.

Here's how it works.  If you breed a fully mutated baby with a dino that is completely clean, there's a chance for mutation on the clean parent's side.  The resulting baby would the come out with 1/20 on the clean side and 40+/20 on the fully mutated side.  That's 41 mutations.  If you then breed again with a clean parent using THAT baby,  you can get another mutation on the clean side for 1/20 on the clean side and 41/20 on the overmutated side.

There IS a limit to this, though.  Each mutation is +2 levels to a stat.  (It's important to choose which stat mutations you keep for the reasons I'll be giving you now) - 

The limit is simply this:  When a dino reaches level 450 or higher on official servers, the next server restart will despawn that dino altogether.

Because of this hard cap to dino level, the highest level a baby can be born and be safe is level 378.  After fully leveling that baby (+71 levels) you'll be level 449 and just under that threshold.  Because of this, your ultimate cap to mutations is 186 (a level 5 mutated for +372 levels in a single stat).

My brain hurts.. need to eat lunch. As hunger increases my questions are liable to get dummer.. just a warning. I think I follow what you are saying want to confirm my understanding on some points:

• When you say +2 levels into a stat you mean points right or as if it had been leveled two times.
• If a baby is born higher than 378 just kill it?

Questions

• I can not push a particular stat beyond +372 points?
• I can not get mutations past 186 mutations in same stat?
• I don't follow where you say "a level 5 mutated..."?
• With all these babies being born do I want to level them up at all before breeding? Do stats count that come from leveling them up or do the stats they are born with only matter?

4 minutes ago, SingleSidedPCB said:

you would mutate your separate lines as far as your willing to go first. 20 mutations is +40 levels, so if you started out with 40 levels you'd now have 80. that's waaay overkill for anything you'd need in ark

you would want a combined stat+mutations breeding pair in the end, so you could "clone" the stats indefinitely onto new rexes. kind of like having a blueprint.

Ok thank you very much for clarifying this! Since I play 99% of the time on single player some stuff can be a little difficult all by yourself so I am okay with overkill. I think I will aim for overkill if that's okay .

When you say stat+mutation breeding pair you are saying that I want a male and female with all the stats maxed out(or pushed as far as I want to push them) so I can always breed them to get more of what I got?

[SingleSidedPCB]

4 minutes ago, SirPeter said:

Ok thank you very much for clarifying this! Since I play 99% of the time on single player some stuff can be a little difficult all by yourself so I am okay with overkill. I think I will aim for overkill if that's okay .

When you say stat+mutation breeding pair you are saying that I want a male and female with all the stats maxed out(or pushed as far as I want to push them) so I can always breed them to get more of what I got?

Only the wild points matter for breeding, what you level up doesn't transfer. each mutation puts +2 wild points into a stat.

so you want to make a breeding pair that contains all your best stats including the mutations, then you can use them to make a super army for boss fights.

[banggugyangu]

15 minutes ago, SirPeter said:

My brain hurts.. need to eat lunch. As hunger increases my questions are liable to get dummer.. just a warning. I think I follow what you are saying want to confirm my understanding on some points:

• When you say +2 levels into a stat you mean points right or as if it had been leveled two times.
• If a baby is born higher than 378 just kill it?

Questions

• I can not push a particular stat beyond +372 points?
• I can not get mutations past 186 mutations in same stat?
• I don't follow where you say "a level 5 mutated..."?
• With all these babies being born do I want to level them up at all before breeding? Do stats count that come from leveling them up or do the stats they are born with only matter?

Ok thank you very much for clarifying this! Since I play 99% of the time on single player some stuff can be a little difficult all by yourself so I am okay with overkill. I think I will aim for overkill if that's okay .

When you say stat+mutation breeding pair you are saying that I want a male and female with all the stats maxed out(or pushed as far as I want to push them) so I can always breed them to get more of what I got?

You're not asking anything dumb.  And honestly, seeking clarity is never a problem.  to address what you asked in order:

Each mutation is +2 wild levels.  So for health on a reaper, a mutation would be +468 (1 wild health level on a reaper is +234 health) health added to the number of whatever parent passed on the melee stat.

If the baby is born higher than 378, just don't fully level it.  If the Dino's level number reaches 450, it will simply despawn on next server restart.  If one is born level 400, for example, you can add 49 levels to it.  Any more will trigger the despawn.

You can push a stat as high as you want, but keep in mind, 186 mutations is +372 levels.  On a level 5 (the lowest level official dino spawns) that equates to level 377.  One more mutation is level 379, which, when you add in all the tame levels you can add, will put it at 450 and cause the despawn.

"a level 5 mutated" refers to finding a dino with the lowest possible level to maximize how many mutations you can put into a single stat.  This is a fool's errand, though, as you're looking at at least 14 years of work on official breeding rates, given you didn't stop to do anything else.  It's a hypothetical situation that no one will ever achieve on official.

Post-tamed level ups (what you gain experience for) have no effect on breeding whatsoever.  It doesn't help, and it doesn't hurt.  If you didn't document the stand-up/hatch stats, though, you can easily lose track of where you came from, making tracking the mutations a little harder.

[invincibleqc]

47 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

This doesn't actually answer my question.  As it is, that rex went from millions of levels in a single stat to, at most, 158 levels.  If there was a variable length cap, then it would alter the stats in 1 of 3 different ways:  

1:  Capping any overflow at the maximum value (The most expected outcome in this scenario):  255 levels in every overflowed stat

2:  Dropping overflowed digits (Typically from the high side, though possible from the low side of the number):  Oxygen would be either 17 levels (low side dropped) or 07 levels (high side dropped)

3:  Overflowing repeatedly until it no longer overflows with the remainder being the final number.:   Oxygen would be 42 levels

None of these situations is happening in your screenshots, though.  By looking at the oxygen stat, we go from 17,895,687 levels to 158 levels.

 

*edit*  After going over this,  I have a hypothesis of what may actually  be happening here. 

The 2nd screenshot lists out:
Health: 35 levels

Stamina:  147

Oxygen: 158

Food:  56

Weight:  49

Melee:  93

 

This adds up to 538 level ups for a total of level 539.  I hypothesize that level ups beyond level 600 are dropped upon server restart.  If we add in the remaining 61 levels on movement speed, this would make sense.   It would be a god tier stamina and oxygen rex with severely below average health, weight, and food and average melee for level 600.  Perhaps the game keeps track of each individual wild level up and simply rolls them once they breach 600?

The limit into a single stat is 255 points and has been proven on reddit. However, there are other things going on. If you spawn a wild Dino level 9999999999, your server will freeze for a while because I assume there is some loops that generates new stats over and over until it reach a maximum of 1022 points total. Spawned a bunch on my server, used a spyglass mod and they all had one thing in common: 1022 total points. I also get the same results on SP now if I spawn them wild and forcetame them. The screenshots I gave above were using gmsummon and I assume you might be right and that they have an hard-coded limit on that command now (maybe to prevent GMs from spawning level 20k dinos by accident like it happened on officials last year? ). Definitely need more testings but so far, the things I'm sure about are max 255 points into a single stat and max 1022 total points.

[SirPeter]

6 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

"a level 5 mutated" refers to finding a dino with the lowest possible level to maximize how many mutations you can put into a single stat.  This is a fool's errand, though, as you're looking at at least 14 years of work on official breeding rates, given you didn't stop to do anything else.  It's a hypothetical situation that no one will ever achieve on official.

[SirPeter]

So it's 255 points into a single stat not 372?

[banggugyangu]

6 minutes ago, invincibleqc said:

The limit into a single stat is 255 points and has been proven on reddit. However, there are other things going on. If you spawn a wild Dino level 9999999999, your server will freeze for a while because I assume there is some loops that generates new stats over and over until it reach a maximum of 1022 points total. Spawned a bunch on my server, used a spyglass mod and they all had one thing in common: 1022 total points. I also get the same results on SP now if I spawn them wild and forcetame them. The screenshots I gave above were using gmsummon and I assume you might be right and that they have an hard-coded limit on that command now (maybe to prevent GMs from spawning level 20k dinos by accident like it happened on officials last year? ). Definitely need more testings but so far, the things I'm sure about are max 255 points into a single stat and max 1022 total points.

While not pertinent to official, by any means, that peudocode he posted implies that cap to be related directly to mutations (can't mutate above 255).  I'd be interested in seeing the actual code involved to determine if that cap is actually on stat values or specifically implemented for mutations.  1022 is a very abstract number from a coding perspective.  I wonder where that number is actually coming from.

[SirPeter]

About to grab some lunch, wanted to say thanks to everyone involved as I actually feel confident to breed something accurately. I have tried in the past and had no idea what I was doing. Very helpful. Any other good points/tips/ideas/concepts/practices whatever with breeding? Feel free to advise. Im a sponge looking to soak up all knowledge I can.

[invincibleqc]

5 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

While not pertinent to official, by any means, that peudocode he posted implies that cap to be related directly to mutations (can't mutate above 255).  I'd be interested in seeing the actual code involved to determine if that cap is actually on stat values or specifically implemented for mutations. 

It is for wild and tamed creatures as well. Just spawn some using a spyglass mod and none of the stats will ever go above 255.

5 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

1022 is a very abstract number from a coding perspective.  I wonder where that number is actually coming from.

Yes, I thought the same thing. But might be max 1024 - 1 (the original level) and a < condition instead of <= in their loops or something.

[isu]

Just little math:

If you separate stats, you have 2 x 2,5% x 1/7 x 0,55 = 0,392857% chance to get new correct mutation.

If you don't separate stats, you have 1 x 2,5% x 2/7 x 0,55 = 0,392857% chance to get new correct mutation. (Don't forget that first 3-4 generations we also have 2x chance for mutation because all dinos started at 0 mutations, but after 3-4 generations they will be over 20)

So I have same chance to get new mutation, I can use all females only for 1 male + i'm getting dinos with my 2 top current stats.

[DarthaNyan]

53 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

You can push a stat as high as you want, but keep in mind, 186 mutations is +372 levels.  On a level 5 (the lowest level official dino spawns) that equates to level 377.  One more mutation is level 379, which, when you add in all the tame levels you can add, will put it at 450 and cause the despawn.

Level 5 dino means there is only 4 stat points distributed among its 7 stats which leaves room for breeding it down to level 1 (or 2) by mating with another level 5 with different stat distribution. This means that the maximum mutations one can have is 188.

[SirPeter]

4 minutes ago, DarthaNyan said:

Level 5 dino means there is only 4 stat points distributed among its 7 stats which leaves room for breeding it down to level 1 by mating with another level 5 with different stat distribution. This means that the maximum mutations one can have is 188.

So does there come a point where I would need/have to do this? Is this something I should all joking aside actually care about or is it just that theoretical stuff @banggugyangu said and it really is just a waste of time?

[DarthaNyan]

2 minutes ago, SirPeter said:

So does there come a point where I would need/have to do this? Is this something I should all joking aside actually care about or is it just that theoretical stuff @banggugyangu said and it really is just a waste of time?

Theory (and practice) goes like this: once your babies start to pop at level close to 378 - it is about time to think about downgrading some of less important stats (for example, oxygen and wasted speed) by mating with low level specimens. It wont hurt your dino's performance (downgrading oxy may hurt performance of amphibious species), but will free room for more mutations.

[SirPeter]

3 minutes ago, DarthaNyan said:

Theory (and practice) goes like this: once your babies start to pop at level close to 378 - it is about time to think about downgrading some of less important stats (for example, oxygen and wasted speed) by mating with low level specimens. It wont hurt your dino's performance (downgrading oxy may hurt performance of amphibious species), but will free room for more mutations.

Okay I think I get it. So when I get to that threshold I can use this to drop their levels is there a wrong way to do this or just breed, confirm that good stat carried over like normal and move forward like normal with a lower EXP level.

[SingleSidedPCB]

6 minutes ago, SirPeter said:

So does there come a point where I would need/have to do this? Is this something I should all joking aside actually care about or is it just that theoretical stuff @banggugyangu said and it really is just a waste of time?

You don't have to worry about the 450 level cap outside of official servers.

[SirPeter]

3 minutes ago, SingleSidedPCB said:

You don't have to worry about the 450 level cap outside of official servers.

Oh okay is that a setting or same for single player? Between single player and unofficial I don't have any plans to EVER go back to official servers. 

[DarthaNyan]

5 minutes ago, SirPeter said:

Okay I think I get it. So when I get to that threshold I can use this to drop their levels is there a wrong way to do this or just breed, confirm that good stat carried over like normal and move forward like normal with a lower EXP level.

Ideally you want to do this at the start so you wont have to re-create your clean 0/0 stock of females (to avoid re-introducing higher stats) once you start approaching threshold. But it is also worth noting that babies born at levels 379+ are safe, unless you manually level them up all the way to 450.