breeding Breeding and mutations

[SirPeter]

OK so in a different thread about taming and the pre/post tame stats breeding was mentioned a few times. I have played for years but never took much of the game too seriously on the taming/breeding side since it was really just tame and go kill stuff. Now I am trying to learn more about this. @SingleSidedPCB and @invincibleqc were talking about breeding for mutations. 

So some of the first things I am not certain about:

1. When saying "breeding for mutations" sounds like you can breed for other purposes.. If not for mutations what else is there?
2. " it is very important that you avoid all mutations until you have your all stat, 0 mutation pair" was stated in other thread. Another disagreed. Why is/isn't this important along with.. what? haha does this mean breed until you have two dinos all with great stats and if you get a mutation it messes something up? Please elaborate.
3. "I could not disagree more with that. By combining your stats for mutating purpose you ends up with ghost markers which results into twice as more eggs needed to mutate a specific stat. I will always recommend to keep your stats separated and never duplicate markers until you have 20 that are mutations in the stat you are looking for. This is how I used to do on legacy" I read the words in english but understood this like it was spanish. (I don't speak spanish).

It's okay to talk to me like a child as I know little about breeding/mutations/getting awesome tames. Watched many youtube videos, read other threads but I guess somewhere between stuff changing in the game over the years, not taking it serious until recently, and/or I may just be dumb it's just not clicked, still confused by this. Please everyone feel free to explain/discuss. Also please use sources and screen shots to support claims if possible as that helps.

[SingleSidedPCB]

47 minutes ago, invincibleqc said:

I could not disagree more with that. By combining your stats for mutating purpose you ends up with ghost markers which results into twice as more eggs needed to mutate a specific stat. I will always recommend to keep your stats separated and never duplicate markers until you have 20 that are mutations in the stat you are looking for. This is how I used to do on legacy:

https://survivetheark.com/index.php?/forums/topic/272654-officially-killed-beta-and-alpha-dragon-on-official/&do=findComment&comment=1584212

https://survivetheark.com/index.php?/forums/topic/272654-officially-killed-beta-and-alpha-dragon-on-official/&do=findComment&comment=1584359

Your disagreeing with me but saying the same thing i was saying to get all your stats together with no mutations before breeding for mutations so you DONT end up with ghost markers. Looking at the post you linked, i do them the exact same way.

First have the 0 mutation all stat pair, then make multiple females. breed the females with 1 male until a mutation in the desired stat occurs, and that mutated baby replaces the male. if it's a female, it's bred with a non mutated male until a mutated male is made. never breeding 2 dinos with the same mutations together. this way the mutations are never duplicated, and are always stacked to 1 side. and since a non mutated parent can mutate a stat on the mutated parent, the 20 mutations limit can be exceeded. I also keep the lines separate. 1 line for melee, 1 for health. once the desired number of mutations are achieved the lines can be cross bred. all the while keeping a non mutated pair, and the top mutated male from each separate line. pretty sure that's how you do it too. but you have far more patience than me doing it at official rates

[invincibleqc]

33 minutes ago, SingleSidedPCB said:

Your disagreeing with me but saying the same thing i was saying to get all your stats together with no mutations before breeding for mutations so you DONT end up with ghost markers. Looking at the post you linked, i do them the exact same way.

First have the 0 mutation all stat pair, then make multiple females. breed the females with 1 male until a mutation in the desired stat occurs, and that mutated baby replaces the male. if it's a female, it's bred with a non mutated male until a mutated male is made. never breeding 2 dinos with the same mutations together. this way the mutations are never duplicated, and are always stacked to 1 side. and since a non mutated parent can mutate a stat on the mutated parent, the 20 mutations limit can be exceeded. I also keep the lines separate. 1 line for melee, 1 for health. once the desired number of mutations are achieved the lines can be cross bred. all the while keeping a non mutated pair, and the top mutated male from each separate line. pretty sure that's how you do it too. but you have far more patience than me doing it at official rates

I'm not saying the same thing, at all. (Or maybe I am, I'm bad to explain things or understand them ) You don't want to have all your stats together. In the example I linked, I was mutating Health and Melee on Theriz and never combined both stats into the same baby and kept them both on different line for the simple fact that you will ends with ghost marker sooner or later. Take in example you have  Theriz pair that both have the following stats combined:

• 9,744.1 Health (51 pts)
• 414% Melee (49 pts)
• 0/40 Markers

You breed them together and get the following baby:

• 10,092.1 Health (53 pts)
• 414% Melee (49 pts)
• 1/40 Markers

Now let assume that this baby was a male and that you mate him with a clean female (0/40 Markers) and get the following baby:

• 10,092.1 Health (53 pts)
• 425.7% Melee (51 pts)
• 2/40 Markers

Now you have a mutation into both stats, awesome! Let assume it was also a male and you mate him back with a clean female (0/40 Markers) and get the following baby:

• 10,440.1 Health (55 pts)
• 414% Melee (49 pts)
• 3/40 Markers

Awesome! A new Health mutation! But wait... our baby has 3 markers but only carry 2 Health mutations and didn't get the mutated melee passed on. Now we will have to inject our Mutated Melee back into it. Our first Melee mutation also had an Health mutation so at the lowest we will have to inject 2 extra Markers to get our melee back into the line. Meaning that we ends up with 5 Markers for 3 real Mutations. That line is now DIRTY has it have ghost markers. And once we reach 20 Markers, we decrease our chance of mutating by 50% because all roll tied to the parent that exceed the 20 limit will fails so you absolutely wants to stay under 20 markers at all cost the longer you can. And to do so, you don't combine your stats until they are all dirty above 20 markers. So you have a Male with your Health stat and another Male with your Melee and you mutate them separately mating them with clean females. In short, to mathematically maximize your mutating process, you want the following results for health:

• 9,744.1 (52 pts - 0/40 Markers)
• 10,092.1 (53 pts - 1/40 Markers)
• 10,440.1 (55 pts - 2/40 Markers)
• 10,788.1 (57 pts - 3/40 Markers)
• 11,136.1 (59 pts - 4/40 Markers)
• ...
• 16,704.1 (91 pts - 20/40 Markers)

And into a separate line you want:

• 414% (49 pts - 0/40 Markers)
• 425.7% (51 pts - 1/40 Markers)
• 437.5% (53 pts - 2/40 Markers)
• 449.2% (55 pts - 3/40 Markers)
• 461% (57 pts - 4/40 Markers)
• ...
• 649.2% (89 pts - 20/40 Markers)

Now that you have 20 mutations into health and 20 into melee that are "real" you can combine them and get a 40/40 baby because at this point your chance to mutate already been halved.

[Demigod]

okay, so in a nutshell... you want to breed a line for melee and a line for health but never crossbreed until you get the final mutation in that particular stat?

im also fairly new to breeding but am at the point where i have what i need to begin breeding for bosses.

clarify this: if the final baby of both rex lines is maxed out, can you find a wild rex with no mutations and breed it with the line in order to get more mutations, or will that even work since the baby is already fully mutated?

[SingleSidedPCB]

1 hour ago, SirPeter said:

OK so in a different thread about taming and the pre/post tame stats breeding was mentioned a few times. I have played for years but never took much of the game too seriously on the taming/breeding side since it was really just tame and go kill stuff. Now I am trying to learn more about this. @SingleSidedPCB and @invincibleqc were talking about breeding for mutations. 

So some of the first things I am not certain about:

1. When saying "breeding for mutations" sounds like you can breed for other purposes.. If not for mutations what else is there?
2. " it is very important that you avoid all mutations until you have your all stat, 0 mutation pair" was stated in other thread. Another disagreed. Why is/isn't this important along with.. what? haha does this mean breed until you have two dinos all with great stats and if you get a mutation it messes something up? Please elaborate.
3. "I could not disagree more with that. By combining your stats for mutating purpose you ends up with ghost markers which results into twice as more eggs needed to mutate a specific stat. I will always recommend to keep your stats separated and never duplicate markers until you have 20 that are mutations in the stat you are looking for. This is how I used to do on legacy" I read the words in english but understood this like it was spanish. (I don't speak spanish).

It's okay to talk to me like a child as I know little about breeding/mutations/getting awesome tames. Watched many youtube videos, read other threads but I guess somewhere between stuff changing in the game over the years, not taking it serious until recently, and/or I may just be dumb it's just not clicked, still confused by this. Please everyone feel free to explain/discuss. Also please use sources and screen shots to support claims if possible as that helps.

1. Breeding the best wild stats together is the first reason for breeding. say you have 1 rex with 45 points in health, but only 20 point in melee and another rex with 20 points in health but 45 in melee. you breed them together until you get a baby with 45 points in health AND melee. then if you want to go beyond that, you can breed for mutations. each mutation gives 2 wild points into a stat and a color mutation, but colors can mutate in a color region that doesn't exist so they are not always visible.

2. The mutation counter is just that, a counter. it only keeps track of the number of mutations not what mutated, and even if the mutated stat doesn't transfer the counter does. there's a limit of 20 mutations on each parents side, once exceeded you can no longer get mutations.  if when breeding your example rexes above together, say you get a female with a mutation. then you breed that female back with the male to try and get a male/female pair that both have 45 points in melee and health, now both your rexes have the same mutation. if you breed them together, the mutation counter will double without actually receiving a new mutation.

3. i think he just misunderstood me?

[invincibleqc]

4 minutes ago, Demigod said:

okay, so in a nutshell... you want to breed a line for melee and a line for health but never crossbreed until you get the final mutation in that particular stat?

Exactly.

5 minutes ago, Demigod said:

clarify this: if the final baby of both rex lines is maxed out, can you find a wild rex with no mutations and breed it with the line in order to get more mutations, or will that even work since the baby is already fully mutated?

Yes, you can. But you will have 50% less chance to mutate now that you have one parent that exceed 20 markers. The real "limit" for mutations is 255 pts per stat.

[SingleSidedPCB]

8 minutes ago, invincibleqc said:

I'm not saying the same thing, at all. (Or maybe I am, I'm bad to explain things or understand them ) You don't want to have all your stats together.

I was saying BEFORE breeding for mutations, have all your wild stats together. like if you have 40+ points in health, stam, weight and melee get those into a breeding pair with 0 mutations first THEN start on mutations. for boss fight or pvp dinos, extra points in anything other than health and/or melee may hurt you due to the 450 level cap, but not everyone has to worry about that

[invincibleqc]

3 minutes ago, SingleSidedPCB said:

I was saying BEFORE breeding for mutations, have all your wild stats together. like if you have 40+ points in health, stam, weight and melee get those into a breeding pair with 0 mutations first THEN start on mutations. for boss fight or pvp dinos, extra points in anything other than health and/or melee may hurt you due to the 450 level cap, but not everyone has to worry about that

I left officials the day they became legacy and never ever connected on the new cluster and I have no regret about it; so the 450 limit no longer apply to me as well.

[SirPeter]

Ahh okay I understand a little better now. I think. So if I wanted to breed anything we can say a rex since they are popular. So I want to breed a rex and my target stats are HP, Stam, and Melee. I need to have three individual bloodlines focusing on each of these stats. So I would use the prior acquired knowledge on taming the proper dinos getting the stats as I desired. Does it matter which male or female has the target stat? Lets focus on just one stat for now to keep my puny brain from getting confused. Once I have found a male and/or female with the points I want (OR is it just one of them and the other's doesn't matter?) in HP I breed them together. I find a male rex with very good HP 40 or whatever points. Breed with just any female rex over and over until the HP stat mutates? Then use that mutated HP stat as Generation2 and go tame another rex or breed with one I already got? Clean means just no mutations on either side correct. Or do I need to be taming a new one each time? I feel like this isn't that hard and my brain is just really dumb haha. I really overthink stuff my apologies.

[invincibleqc]

4 minutes ago, SirPeter said:

Ahh okay I understand a little better now. I think. So if I wanted to breed anything we can say a rex since they are popular. So I want to breed a rex and my target stats are HP, Stam, and Melee. I need to have three individual bloodlines focusing on each of these stats. So I would use the prior acquired knowledge on taming the proper dinos getting the stats as I desired. Does it matter which male or female has the target stat? Lets focus on just one stat for now to keep my puny brain from getting confused. Once I have found a male and/or female with the points I want (OR is it just one of them and the other's doesn't matter?) in HP I breed them together. I find a male rex with very good HP 40 or whatever points. Breed with just any female rex over and over until the HP stat mutates? Then use that mutated HP stat as Generation2 and go tame another rex or breed with one I already got? Clean means just no mutations on either side correct. Or do I need to be taming a new one each time? I feel like this isn't that hard and my brain is just really dumb haha. I really overthink stuff my apologies.

Yes, you want to keep your mutated stats separated until you reach 20 markers that are mutations into a specific stat. You can mate your mutated male with any females as long as they have 0/40 markers; their stats doesn't matter. You should mutate the stat you are looking for every 290 eggs (mathematically but still random).

[isu]

I don't think that separating mutation is faster, because you have only 1/7 chance to hit good stat and then you have 55% chance to get it on your higher stat from both parents.

If you would have use male with both mutated stats, you have 2/7 chance to hit good stats + 55% chance for each of them.

+ you have 2x more females for breeding, because you are not separating them.

[banggugyangu]

55 minutes ago, invincibleqc said:

Exactly.

Yes, you can. But you will have 50% less chance to mutate now that you have one parent that exceed 20 markers. The real "limit" for mutations is 255 pts per stat.

Are we certain that the variable for each stat is a single byte address?

[SingleSidedPCB]

6 minutes ago, invincibleqc said:

Yes, you want to keep your mutated stats separated until you reach 20 markers that are mutations into a specific stat. You can mate your mutated male with any females as long as they have 0/40 markers; their stats doesn't matter. You should mutate the stat you are looking for every 290 eggs (mathematically but still random).

Maybe that's where our strategies differ.. when taming, i keep anything with any high stat even if they don't necessarily *need* it. and by the time i get 40+ points in the critical stats, I'll likely have pretty decent points in non-critical stats as well. so I'll breed for health/stam/oxy/food/weight/melee on most things.

I guess combining the stats pre mutation or post mutation wouldn't make a huge difference, as long as the mutation process itself is done cleanly.

10 minutes ago, isu said:

I don't think that separating mutation is faster, because you have only 1/7 chance to hit good stat and then you have 55% chance to get it on your higher stat from both parents.

If you would have use male with both mutated stats, you have 2/7 chance to hit good stats + 55% chance for each of them.

+ you have 2x more females for breeding, because you are not separating them.

Your forgetting the babies may not get both mutated stats from the parent when getting a new mutation. so you could end up gaining in 1 stat while loosing in another. separate lines is better.

[isu]

1 hour ago, invincibleqc said:

Exactly.

Yes, you can. But you will have 50% less chance to mutate now that you have one parent that exceed 20 markers. The real "limit" for mutations is 255 pts per stat.

But you have also 2x less chance to hit good stat for mutation, because you want exactly 1 stat.

With separating you have lot of problems and in later stage is useless anyway.

1. Its way too slow, because you can get new mutation on female, which you will breed with clean male, so you can keep mutation minimal, few times you won't hatch this stat on baby and you have already 2 weeks delay on your stat.

2. You are using only half females, because 2nd half is used for different stats.

3. I need dinos for the war and I want best dinos, which I can get and with seperating stats I wont have it.

[SirPeter]

Ok so I keep breeding until I get 20 markers/mutations in HP. I'll also be doing this in the other two stats I am interested in from prior example of wanting HP, Stam, and Melee. So Now I have three rexes each one has 20 markers/mutations in their respected stat. I would have to now breed two of them together until I have 20 more markers/mutations for each stat? That would be 40 and how would I get the last stat mutated in? Is it only possible to really focus on two stats in stead of three?

[invincibleqc]

9 minutes ago, banggugyangu said:

Are we certain that the variable for each stat is a single byte address?

Yes, they are saved as such so if you spawn this:

It will becomes this after a restart:

 

[isu]

5 minutes ago, SingleSidedPCB said:

 

Your forgetting the babies may not get both mutated stats from the parent when getting a new mutation. so you could end up gaining in 1 stat while loosing in another. separate lines is better.

But I don't care for the mutation count, so I will just breed baby with my other overmutated females or males until I will get new male with both stats.

[SirPeter]

4 minutes ago, isu said:

But I don't care for the mutation count, so I will just breed baby with my other overmutated females or males until I will get new male with both stats.

But I think I may care if I am following what they are saying.. haha.. Seems like it makes a difference and I am very OCD/Analytical on how I do things. So let's keep the conversation following the absolute best case/ideal scenario for obtainedin the best possible super mutated bred imprinted kills everything and it's mother tame. 

[SingleSidedPCB]

5 minutes ago, SirPeter said:

Ok so I keep breeding until I get 20 markers/mutations in HP. I'll also be doing this in the other two stats I am interested in from prior example of wanting HP, Stam, and Melee. So Now I have three rexes each one has 20 markers/mutations in their respected stat. I would have to now breed two of them together until I have 20 more markers/mutations for each stat? That would be 40 and how would I get the last stat mutated in? Is it only possible to really focus on two stats in stead of three?

Like i said before, the mutation counter is just a counter. the mutations themselves permanently alter the wild points in a stat. so once you have the stats from mutations in your 3 lines, you breed them together and ignore the mutation counter cause it no longer matters

I feel i should warn you that the breeding for mutations process is hands down the most grindy thing in this game. and at official rates it could take 6 months to a year (guesstimated) to get your mutations...depending on how creative you get with your breeding box to stack as many females into it as possible.

[isu]

But with their breeding you are not producing any dinos in process. I'm playing on official pvp and I need hundreds of dinos with best stats possible.

So i'm breeding overmutated male with all stats with 40 clean (19 mutation and lower) females.

If I get baby with both stats, I keep it for war/boss/everything. If I get new mutation, I keep it also. If I have only 1 stat or 0, I just kill them.

 

I'm pretty sure that with my method i'm much faster to produce lot of good stats dinos with same speed catching new mutations as I would seperate them.

[banggugyangu]

21 minutes ago, invincibleqc said:

Yes, they are saved as such so if you spawn this:

It will becomes this after a restart:

 

This doesn't actually answer my question.  As it is, that rex went from millions of levels in a single stat to, at most, 158 levels.  If there was a variable length cap, then it would alter the stats in 1 of 3 different ways:  

1:  Capping any overflow at the maximum value (The most expected outcome in this scenario):  255 levels in every overflowed stat

2:  Dropping overflowed digits (Typically from the high side, though possible from the low side of the number):  Oxygen would be either 17 levels (low side dropped) or 07 levels (high side dropped)

3:  Overflowing repeatedly until it no longer overflows with the remainder being the final number.:   Oxygen would be 42 levels

None of these situations is happening in your screenshots, though.  By looking at the oxygen stat, we go from 17,895,687 levels to 158 levels.

 

*edit*  After going over this,  I have a hypothesis of what may actually  be happening here. 

The 2nd screenshot lists out:
Health: 35 levels

Stamina:  147

Oxygen: 158

Food:  56

Weight:  49

Melee:  93

 

This adds up to 538 level ups for a total of level 539.  I hypothesize that level ups beyond level 600 are dropped upon server restart.  If we add in the remaining 61 levels on movement speed, this would make sense.   It would be a god tier stamina and oxygen rex with severely below average health, weight, and food and average melee for level 600.  Perhaps the game keeps track of each individual wild level up and simply rolls them once they breach 600?

[SirPeter]

6 minutes ago, SingleSidedPCB said:

Like i said before, the mutation counter is just a counter. the mutations themselves permanently alter the wild points in a stat. so once you have the stats from mutations in your 3 lines, you breed them together and ignore the mutation counter cause it no longer matters

I feel i should warn you that the breeding for mutations process is hands down the most grindy thing in this game. and at official rates it could take 6 months to a year (guesstimated) to get your mutations...depending on how creative you get with your breeding box to stack as many females into it as possible.

Wish you could have seen my mind blown moment reading this haha. I am laughing out loud in my very quit office and feel the strong judgement from others....

Me realizing how simple of a point this was I totally missed hahaha

Just to confirm though to ensure my mind was blown for the right reason. once each line is mutated fully the hard part is really over and now I just breed together until I get one baby with all three fully mutated stats?

I play single player with mating/maturation accelerated. Exact number not set yet as I am not certain how fast I like it. I want it fast but not stupid fast plus I want the option to 100% imprint still. 

[SingleSidedPCB]

7 minutes ago, isu said:

But with their breeding you are not producing any dinos in process. I'm playing on official pvp and I need hundreds of dinos with best stats possible.

So i'm breeding overmutated male with all stats with 40 clean (19 mutation and lower) females.

If I get baby with both stats, I keep it for war/boss/everything. If I get new mutation, I keep it also. If I have only 1 stat or 0, I just kill them.

 

I'm pretty sure that with my method i'm much faster to produce lot of good stats dinos with same speed catching new mutations as I would seperate them.

That's just....so dirty. but i guess in war, you gotta do what you gotta do.

[SingleSidedPCB]

4 minutes ago, SirPeter said:

Just to confirm though to ensure my mind was blown for the right reason. once each line is mutated fully the hard part is really over and now I just breed together until I get one baby with all three fully mutated stats?

Yup! you got it

[isu]

3 minutes ago, SingleSidedPCB said:

Yup! you got it

What you mean thats its over?

One parent can mutate stat of other parent. So you can go much more than 20/20. Thats why separating will only slow your progress.