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yekrucifixion187

Rebalancing the rebalance of the Griffin

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* This has a PVE view point. I get the Griffin was OP in PVP for certain purposes. 

 

Meet Stewie

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Stewie is a little worse for wear this morning after helping me on a milk run. You see Stewie use to be this glorious 22k hp Wyvern kiting machine. When I hit severe lag when trying to kite a Wyvern to a trap to get milk to feed my Wyvern raises while riding Stewie, I knew he had the health pool to fight through it whether it was a Fire, Poison, or Lightning following. Now after hitting lag, enabling in particular Lightning's to catch up, I am often times left with;

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This picture was taken after I trapped and knocked out the level 100 Lightning Wyvern that did it. So he has recovered some health at this point so my estimation is he was around 1100 hp. It definitely hasn't been his closest call. He's been down as low 830 hp from a level 55 lightning, level 90 poison combo after an extreme lag spike made it impossible to strafe. 

When I first tamed Stewie it was to have a Griffin. He was a 140 kibble tame. I flew around with him and he was alright. I never cared for speed with how built up and laggy the official server's are. I never considered him a great scar runner. Sure he can get to the nest faster but with how often even a Wyvern can glitch into the lava, dive bombing in that direction to get the speed boost needed to shoot back out of the scar seemed a whole lot scarier then just taking a good Wyvern in there and killing the lot of them. I never used him to kill animals since that is mostly done for meat runs and there is obviously better equipped dino's for that. Stewie mostly sat until I built my own Wyvern trap and realized his truest asset for me. 

Stewie can fit through dino gates which allows for an easy trap of Wyvern's. Our trap deploys an aggro for the Wyvern by placing 25k hp passive Rex's around 2 high stone door frames. We placed metal pillars behemoth gate high and put metal ceilings on them (because we like to trap Alpha's too). We have a behemoth gate opening into the trap that is really just a square trap (no funnel) and this leads to a dino gate exit. The trap is designed specifically to be used by the Griffin. I got good enough that I could get in, shoot through the dino gate and pull up and fly back around to close the gate with out stopping/landing. The Rex's would take the aggro of the Wyvern while I sat back and darted it to steal it's milk and then harvested it's sulfur and prime meat with the Rex. Best time I've ever did this in is 5 minutes which is great when I am home for a brief moment on my lunch break and need to feed the Wyvern raise. 

The Griffin was introduced, IMO, to combat the Wyvern's strengths and the still rather recent nerf has hurt that tremendously. 

Griffin had the higher HP which make sense since it is defensive against the aggressive Wyvern. 

Griffin had the faster speed which made sense since it was mostly running from the Wyvern and it still could be caught since it has to descend, ascend repeatedly to maximize its speed but with the higher HP it could afford to get hit a little by the Wyvern. 

Griffin had the better mobility which made sense since the Wyvern has elemental attacks that the Griffin must try to avoid. 

The Wyvern was still a better fighter because of it's elemental attacks, still a better scar runner because of it's better attacks plus carry weight (who's going into the scar for one egg?) plus ability to get out of the scar easier. 

This severe Griffin nerf has been tested now and while I still use him for my milk runs because I have designed a trap specifically to use him in (and the trap was incorporated into another structure so as to not create additional structures around the map) it is only a matter of time until he gets caught up in his current state and killed. When that happens, I'm not going to go out and tame another one because the reason he is going to get caught up and killed is because of the overall nerf that will still affect the next tame. 

Wildcard, please re-evaulate at the very least the HP of the Griffin. I think it was too harsh of a nerf and this comes after quite a bit of testing. 

Moderator's, if you feel this is better suited for game suggestions feel free to move it. 

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2 minutes ago, DarthaNyan said:

Sounds balanced tbh.

Exert more caution when dealing with wyverns so your griffin doesnt "get caught" by them.

How do I exert more caution through a lag infested cesspool? The only reason a Wyvern catches me is because it gains ground while the Griffin and myself are caught in structures, dino's, and scenery rendering in. This probably wouldn't be as big of an issue if I could move freely as intended. Since that's obviously not a possibility we will ever see happen, the dino's need to be adjusted accordingly to make up for that. 

So tell me how it is balanced now? Lower HP, still faster and more mobile but doesn't help with the way official server's operate, weaker attack. Where's the balance there? 

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I have to agree I have lost more tames to lag and disconnects than I ever have because I wasn't careful or used them improperly. Griffins and rock drakes suffer the most from this because they are faster than any other creatures in the game which causes worse lag and rendering issues due to the server and connection not being able to render everything faster than they can move. Good example everytime I glide with the drake at speed and land I have to stop and wait for everything to render and even if I don't I can't move for 5 seconds anyway or I get rubber banded back to the spot where I landed. So basically yes creatures should have enough health to survive against strong opponents for at least a few seconds because of the constant lag and rendering issues on official servers since I would say probably 40 percent or more of the players play on official servers

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18 minutes ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

Lower HP, still faster and more mobile but doesn't help with the way official server's operate, weaker attack.

You are asking to treat a symptom and not the cause. And that approach never ended well. If every player starts a "this creature needs to be buffed because i (almost) lost it to server lag" thread - there will be no end to them.

Edit: post above proves my point.

Edited by DarthaNyan
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19 minutes ago, DarthaNyan said:

You are asking to treat a symptom and not the cause. And that approach never ended well. If every player starts a "this creature needs to be buffed because i (almost) lost it to server lag" thread - there will be no end to them.

Edit: post above proves my point.

That's a fair enough point. Server issues shouldn't necessarily be the deciding factor but with how poor they are, should they not be factored at all? 

So say everything is equal. Best performing server of all time. I still think the HP nerf was extreme from any standpoint.

I'm ok with the stamina nerf. There should be a cost for increased speed and what can be a devastating attack due to that dive bomb.

I'm ok with the attack nerf. I have heard tales of griffins being able to kill Titans which I think is way too much. If a singular Rex would struggle to kill a Titan, Griffin's shouldn't be able to either with a melee attack (as opposed to a Wyvern's elemental attack which at least puts some distance between the Titan and Wyvern).

The HP nerf was extreme though. Griffins were designed to deal with Wyvern's and their strong attacks but now here's my Griffin that was at 22k hp, down to 9.4k hp with 2 levels gained and added to HP since the nerf and while fire and poison are easy enough to avoid with a strafe move, lightning attacks are not. I've done it all against lightning attacks. Strafe, ascend, descend, "Hot Shots" brake move, but the lightning still catches you. I tend to not go for lightnings when getting milk but when you have 15 minutes at lunch and see male, male, male, male, female, you care less about what that female is. 

So IMO, even on a private server or single player where lag is not an issue, I still think the HP nerf was too much and should be looked at again. 

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Until the devs decide to nerf...sorry "balance" for PvP via mechanics instead of stats, PvE will always take a hard hit. 

If someone did kill a titan with a Griffin, i bet it took at least an hour. I'd call that an achievement not "OP".

I used to have loads of fun killing wild gigas with my "battle quetz". There was strategy to it, it took a long time, and success was that much more rewarding for it. sadly those days are gone.

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1 hour ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

That's a fair enough point. Server issues shouldn't necessarily be the deciding factor but with how poor they are, should they not be factored at all? 

So say everything is equal. Best performing server of all time. I still think the HP nerf was extreme from any standpoint.

I'm ok with the stamina nerf. There should be a cost for increased speed and what can be a devastating attack due to that dive bomb.

I'm ok with the attack nerf. I have heard tales of griffins being able to kill Titans which I think is way too much. If a singular Rex would struggle to kill a Titan, Griffin's shouldn't be able to either with a melee attack (as opposed to a Wyvern's elemental attack which at least puts some distance between the Titan and Wyvern).

The HP nerf was extreme though. Griffins were designed to deal with Wyvern's and their strong attacks but now here's my Griffin that was at 22k hp, down to 9.4k hp with 2 levels gained and added to HP since the nerf and while fire and poison are easy enough to avoid with a strafe move, lightning attacks are not. I've done it all against lightning attacks. Strafe, ascend, descend, "Hot Shots" brake move, but the lightning still catches you. I tend to not go for lightnings when getting milk but when you have 15 minutes at lunch and see male, male, male, male, female, you care less about what that female is. 

So IMO, even on a private server or single player where lag is not an issue, I still think the HP nerf was too much and should be looked at again. 

So wat im seeing the problem is that lighting wyverns r op, they do way to much damage and range, ours can do 5000 per breath compared to our fire who gets maybe 800?

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3 minutes ago, AngryChris73 said:

So wat im seeing the problem is that lighting wyverns r op, they do way to much damage and range, ours can do 5000 per breath compared to our fire who gets maybe 800?

Fire has a consistent damage though once hit. It does splash damage as well as direct damage.. Lightning has direct damage like poison has direct damage. I don't think Wyvern's are the issue here. I think Wyvern's are right where they need to be. I took a bronto with 14k hp, primitive platform saddle, and 346 melee down to the Wyvern cove when we wanted to get rid of it and had my tribe mate bring Wyvern's to me. The bronto, with me controlling, killed a 190 fire, 190 poison, 185 lightning, additional 180 lightning and 170 fire Wyvern plus a bunch of lower level ones before going down.

I think maybe closer to half of what they did so -15% base hp and -12% wild gain and -11% tamed gain from original stats. That would put it more in line with Wyvern's and have it's hp around 12 to 14k when tamed and leveled in HP. That sounds pretty fair. However 22k hp to 9k hp is bonkers for a single nerf. That's worse than 3k stamina to 600 stamina (flyer nerf on my Ptera). (40% compared to 20%). 

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9 minutes ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

Fire has a consistent damage though once hit. It does splash damage as well as direct damage.. Lightning has direct damage like poison has direct damage. I don't think Wyvern's are the issue here. I think Wyvern's are right where they need to be. I took a bronto with 14k hp, primitive platform saddle, and 346 melee down to the Wyvern cove when we wanted to get rid of it and had my tribe mate bring Wyvern's to me. The bronto, with me controlling, killed a 190 fire, 190 poison, 185 lightning, additional 180 lightning and 170 fire Wyvern plus a bunch of lower level ones before going down.

I think maybe closer to half of what they did so -15% base hp and -12% wild gain and -11% tamed gain from original stats. That would put it more in line with Wyvern's and have it's hp around 12 to 14k when tamed and leveled in HP. That sounds pretty fair. However 22k hp to 9k hp is bonkers for a single nerf. That's worse than 3k stamina to 600 stamina (flyer nerf on my Ptera). (40% compared to 20%). 

I agree, tho lighting wyverns still need to be nerfed to the ground

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3 hours ago, DarthaNyan said:

You are asking to treat a symptom and not the cause. And that approach never ended well. If every player starts a "this creature needs to be buffed because i (almost) lost it to server lag" thread - there will be no end to them.

Edit: post above proves my point.

Honestly seems more people complain about the nerf than there is support for it. This whole nerf was based on feedback from the community supposedly but 80% of the threads I've read weren't for the nerf in any way shape or form. Seems to me a dev just got whooped on official by someone on a griffin who was better at PVP than them. 

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Yeah.  The griffin nerf broke my heart.  I get it for PVP, but there were no concessions made for PVE at all and we didn’t want it.  It was a lazy nerf too, just stat based.  They could have done other things to limit use like making them harder to get at low levels (like the wyvern).  But no, they just used a hammer and smashed them.

I still think they should give us saddles, or at least the ability to breed them.  My previous go-to dino sits in the barn most times now.  It sucks.

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I don't believe a single griffin has been tamed on our cluster, since the griffin nerf.  I did add a mod called gryphons to rag and a few of them have been tamed but they, at least are breedable with imprints.  Griffins are considered pretty much worthless on our servers.

I never understood why griffins were sooooo OP when I've got Wyverns and Argents at 105,000 health.  Don't believe I ever saw a griffin in PVP, on our cluster.  Ev1 seemed to have used wyverns, tanked and threw massive damage.

Edited by Esquire1980
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23 hours ago, Esquire1980 said:

I never understood why griffins were sooooo OP when I've got Wyverns and Argents at 105,000 health.  Don't believe I ever saw a griffin in PVP, on our cluster.  Ev1 seemed to have used wyverns, tanked and threw massive damage.

lol,

yeah just buff all dinos to 100k health so people stop to complaining. Don't know on which server you got that wyverns and argents. But if you play with buffed dinos, don't complain that official rebalancing doesnt line up with your custom dino buffs.

Griffin has the exact same uses as before the nerf. For it's size and other abilities it had way to much HP. Has nothing to do with PvP vs PvE.

Edited by Thorium
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1 hour ago, Thorium said:

lol,

yeah just buff all dinos to 100k health so people stop to complaining. Don't know on which server you got that wyverns and argents. But if you play with buffed dinos, don't complain that official rebalancing doesnt line up with your custom dino buffs.

Griffin has the exact same uses as before the nerf. For it's size and other abilities it had way to much HP. Has nothing to do with PvP vs PvE.

Health, for both dinos and players is set on 1 on our servers (which is "official" setting if you have no experience with code).  I know because I'm the guy who set the code.  For quite a while, I set health down, to even as low as .5 but when we added difficulty to rag, SE, and Ab to up as high as 6.67 -10 above "official" I adjusted health for tames back up to 1.  So "buffed dinos" just do not apply.  We don't use the mod classic flyers due to the fact I can see the need for the speed nerf which most do not like here.

I've seen posts on these boards of 500K health for rexes, we don't have them on our servers but I would imagine that's got to do with 20 mutations and very selective breeding which Wyvern or griffin doesn't even have a chance of seeing.  I do have 2 argents with 106K+ health with just 1 mutation included.

As for the need for griffins, our players just don't see the need nor the usage for min/maxing or any other reason now.  You might like them for easy kills. 

Just because some1 killed you in PVP doesn't mean that whatever they used needs to be nerfed to oblivion.  ARK, and forum nerf tears, is becoming not much more than NERF WARS which hit SWG hard and helped get rid of 2/3rd of the playerbase.

Edited by Esquire1980

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4 hours ago, Esquire1980 said:

I've seen posts on these boards of 500K health for rexes, we don't have them on our servers but I would imagine that's got to do with 20 mutations and very selective breeding which Wyvern or griffin doesn't even have a chance of seeing.  I do have 2 argents with 106K+ health with just 1 mutation included.

No, there are no 500k health rexes that are not exploited. You would need to breed for centuries to get even close to 500k health. And this is not an exaggeration.

If you just set difficulty higher, griffin HP scales the same way as for any other dino with difficulty, so, yes then changing dino attribute gain has nothing to do with it, but then there is not a problem with HP on griffin, they are pretty much in line, in my opinion.

 

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It seems that griffin HP does not scale or they were nerfed sooooo hard (and they were as there's patch notes nerfing griffin scaling to health also-amount they gain per/level) that the scale is so far off that it's not funny, even with Rag being 6.67 above "official".  My griffins, being the same level scale as the wyverns that came off the same server have about 4K health.  I think I've got 1 with 6K health that's level 300+.  This was added to the fact that griffin weight is really nerfed as they are multi player and most points were really needed in weight to even think about using a griffin for what they're designed for.  I have a fire wyvern at level 299 that boasts 106K+ health, 3K+ Stamina, 4K+ melee damage, 6K weight, etc etc etc.  There's no balance there what-so-ever.  And they all came from the exact same "scale" and off the same server with the same exact settings.  Maybe, when you up the levels and difficulty, that "scale" becomes more and more evident as the larger numbers change.

And that's pretty much why no griffins have been tamed, on our servers at least, since the nerf.  They're worthless from a min/max/PVP point of view and only good for bragging rights and maybe some PVE playing around with.  A leveled wyvern, or now even a 100% imprint argent beats them hands down and all the griffin can do is run.  No1 even uses them any longer to grab eggs from the scar, once you've gotten that 246 wyvern egg.  There is such a thing as over-nerf and WC should re-examine their line of thinking.

Edited by Esquire1980
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Hello,

please update your update  -_- . If you now tame a Griffin (we tried with lvl 5 easy private  server) , it ends up with -73 health.

Thats ridiculous. The person responsible for that nerf must be fired. If you look in the wiki (https://ark.gamepedia.com/Griffin) , it says that  the Griffin looses -1000 health on tame, but  has base health of 927.....

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