PvP Imbalance (Structures)

[Crows]

Hello. I still wonder why there's obvious imbalance on official PvP servers regarding offensive tools vs defensive tools. While the Ark Devs look to improve server performance by reducing the number of turrets in a certain radius, there's still flaws with structures themselves and I'll show you a really obvious one.

Metal Behemoth Gates

• Metal Behemoth Gateway costs = 2,100 Metal, 490 Paste, 140 Poly
• Metal Behemoth Gate costs = 1,500 Metal, 350 Paste

Explosives

• C4 Remote Detonator costs = 10 Metal, 10 Crystal, 15 Paste, 50 Fiber, 5 Hide, 20 Poly, 50 Electronics (Only need 1, unlimited use unless dropped)
• C4 Charge costs = 60 Gunpowder, 10 Crystal, 5 Paste, 50 Fiber, 5 Hide, 5 Poly, 5 Electronics
• Takes 4 Charges to completely destroy 1 Metal Behemoth Gate.
• Rocket Propelled Grenade costs = ....... you get the idea already. It takes 6 rockets to completely destroy a Metal Behemoth Gate.

Now I'm not trying to say that explosives should cost the same as Metal Behemoths, but the fact that such an expensive gate (3,600 metal in total) takes very little explosives to destroy, in a game like this where PvP is actively encouraged, is a bit ridiculous. Why? because we're forced to use Behemoth gates in PvP to secure our bases' perimeter. Usually we use stone because they're cheap and effective from stopping people sniping tames, etc - but they're extremely weak and take (less than) 1 C4/Rocket anyway.

Where's the middle-ground? because PvP is always in favour of the attacker, hence why tribes were forced to place 300+ and sometimes 1,000+ turrets around their base because of how easy it is to get raided. Basically, it wouldn't hurt to have more defensive structures in the game which don't require you to aim for Tek. If not a gate, then at least a stronger, larger wall than the current Metal wall we have now, designed for perimeters.

[TracerBee]

15 minutes ago, Crows said:

Hello. I still wonder why there's obvious imbalance on official PvP servers regarding offensive tools vs defensive tools. While the Ark Devs look to improve server performance by reducing the number of turrets in a certain radius, there's still flaws with structures themselves and I'll show you a really obvious one.

Metal Behemoth Gates

• Metal Behemoth Gateway costs = 2,100 Metal, 490 Paste, 140 Poly
• Metal Behemoth Gate costs = 1,500 Metal, 350 Paste

Explosives

• C4 Remote Detonator costs = 10 Metal, 10 Crystal, 15 Paste, 50 Fiber, 5 Hide, 20 Poly, 50 Electronics (Only need 1, unlimited use unless dropped)
• C4 Charge costs = 60 Gunpowder, 10 Crystal, 5 Paste, 50 Fiber, 5 Hide, 5 Poly, 5 Electronics
• Takes 4 Charges to completely destroy 1 Metal Behemoth Gate.
• Rocket Propelled Grenade costs = ....... you get the idea already. It takes 6 rockets to completely destroy a Metal Behemoth Gate.

Now I'm not trying to say that explosives should cost the same as Metal Behemoths, but the fact that such an expensive gate (3,600 metal in total) takes very little explosives to destroy, in a game like this where PvP is actively encouraged, is a bit ridiculous. Why? because we're forced to use Behemoth gates in PvP to secure our bases' perimeter. Usually we use stone because they're cheap and effective from stopping people sniping tames, etc - but they're extremely weak and take (less than) 1 C4/Rocket anyway.

Where's the middle-ground? because PvP is always in favour of the attacker, hence why tribes were forced to place 300+ and sometimes 1,000+ turrets around their base because of how easy it is to get raided. Basically, it wouldn't hurt to have more defensive structures in the game which don't require you to aim for Tek. If not a gate, then at least a stronger, larger wall than the current Metal wall we have now, designed for perimeters.

You are just talking about breaching, but if you wanted to wipe out that entire base, depending on the size, you would need alot more c4.

Strategic placement of traps, multi layering stuff, etc will help you out.

Farming metal, cp is much easier than gp, etc.

[Crows]

7 minutes ago, TracerBee said:

You are just talking about breaching

Yep, mainly perimeters and costs differences. 

8 minutes ago, TracerBee said:

Strategic placement of traps, multi layering stuff, etc will help you out.

You mean multi-layering behemoths to protect your Gigas, Brontos, wyverns, etc. which are easily destroyed? this is what I'm talking about. Never mind turret placement, the fact that Metal Behemoths cost so much compared to explosives is just wrong. They're weak.

10 minutes ago, TracerBee said:

Farming metal, cp is much easier than gp, etc.

Farming GP isn't hard at all though. Raiders are still at an advantage, especially when the 100 turret cap comes.

[TracerBee]

8 minutes ago, Crows said:

Yep, mainly perimeters and costs differences. 

You mean multi-layering behemoths to protect your Gigas, Brontos, wyverns, etc. which are easily destroyed? this is what I'm talking about. Never mind turret placement, the fact that Metal Behemoths cost so much compared to explosives is just wrong. They're weak.

Farming GP isn't hard at all though. Raiders are still at an advantage, especially when the 100 turret cap comes.

I do agree with the 100 turret cap, will make it easier to breach into bases but the new turrets seem promising.

But as for the cost difference, well maybe they should add components to the tek behemoth, like if you c4 at the bottom right side, only that part will blow up, something like that. 

[Pic1]

I thought that was always the case... even in real life. It's always easier to destroy something than to build. I mean, let's take a wooden house. All it takes is a metal pike to bring the entire structure down.

The middle ground is... wait for it... YOU. Yes, the players (defenders) shouldn't just be able to build an unraidable base just with structures and relax. As long as you defend your base with your own weapons and dinos, I fail to see how it can't be a fair fight.

[Crows]

34 minutes ago, Pic1 said:

I thought that was always the case... even in real life.

We're on a game, and in real life, I'm sure 4 C4 charges wouldn't completely demolish a "A large metal-plated concrete gate"  as big as the behemoth gate we see in-game. The damage would vary but I'm sure there'd at least be a large punctured hole, depending on the blast radius, etc.

34 minutes ago, Pic1 said:

The middle ground is... wait for it... YOU. Yes, the players (defenders) shouldn't just be able to build an unraidable base just with structures and relax. As long as you defend your base with your own weapons and dinos, I fail to see how it can't be a fair fight.

I'm not asking for "unraidable" bases. I'm saying a massive gate worth 3,600 metal shouldn't easily fall to significantly cheap explosives, regardless of the circumstances and situation of where the gate is placed.

[Pic1]

1 minute ago, Crows said:

I'm not asking for "unraidable" bases.

A large metal-plated concrete gate would be a lot more expensive, and there are explosives that can bust open even a fortified bunker in real life. Anyways, I still don't see why a massive gate shouldn't fall to a bunch of explosives. But sure, if that's your opinion then we can agree to disagree.

[Crows]

2 minutes ago, Pic1 said:

A large metal-plated concrete gate would be a lot more expensive, and there are explosives that can bust open even a fortified bunker in real life. Anyways, I still don't see why a massive gate shouldn't fall to a bunch of explosives. But sure, if that's your opinion then we can agree to disagree.

I understand your POV though, but in-game, it takes no time to craft 4 C4 charges while it takes time to craft a metal behemoth gate. The amount of explosives tribes have these days is crazy, but then turret placement and smart building and other defenses come into the picture so that's why I'm trying to focus on the cost of metal behemoths only, or asking/suggesting for a larger metal wall designed for securing big dinos, instead of building massive, metal buildings which need lots of turrets, which no one can really afford to do now with the 100 turret cap. 

[Jabroni]

21 minutes ago, Pic1 said:

A large metal-plated concrete gate would be a lot more expensive, and there are explosives that can bust open even a fortified bunker in real life. Anyways, I still don't see why a massive gate shouldn't fall to a bunch of explosives.

Because its all about balance and not realism!

 

I 100% agree with the OP. A Stone behemoth gate costs 1350 Stone/Wood/Thatch and can be destroyed with one rocket.

Structures are pretty much only here so your stuff cant get sniped. It doesnt really matter if you build in Stone or Tek, because once your Turrets are empty, your base is gone. You also need so many Structures to cover your stuff and all 5 sides (roof), but it only takes a few C4 (People run around with stacks) to blow a hole, which is enough.

Structures could use a buff imo.

[natman]

I totally agree. I played primitive (not plus) until ark left ea and that game mode was far more balanced. We had no explosives and no metal structures, so we used catapults for raids. It takes 15 boulders for one stone wall iirc. It is nice when structures actually have a value and dont fall in one second to a cheap attack. I would like to see explosive damage nerfed, so that it takes around 5 c4 to blow a stone wall and maybe 10 for a metal wall...

[natman]

3 hours ago, TracerBee said:

You are just talking about breaching

Breaching is all thats necessary. If the enemy has managed to reach your gates it normally is game over for you. A second or third gate wont stop them anymore then because how cheap it is to blow it up.

3 hours ago, TracerBee said:

but if you wanted to wipe out that entire base, depending on the size, you would need alot more c4.

Of course. But a complete structure wipe is the most extreme case and sets the victim back to zero which shouldnt be easy nor encouraged by a game that is supposed to provide fun in a multiplayer environment. This shouldnt be the scale to balance explosives for.

[Mortus]

I tend to agree with the general premise the OP stated, however, I feel like gates should be weak points to be breached. Watching PvP base building tutorials over time you tend to see a building meta of not trusting walls and other passive defensive measures to protect a base.

In the beginning, tutorials tended toward layered outer defenses and once they breach the main building using multi-layered walls, doors and maze sections to use up a raiding groups explosives before they can get to anything of value. Later bases showed less faith in walls and began using "Vault Dropping" to try and keep raiders out until vaults were reworked and this was no longer viable. Now the latest meta seems to be to build massive steel boxes with turrets spammed across the entire available outside area. Over the same time tribes especially Alpha and Mega tribes wiping players, tribes and worse whole servers becoming more and more common over simply raiding said entities.

Ultimately this seems to be a result of the fact that at least on official servers the size and offensive capability of raiding parties have grown many times what it was but not the means of defending one's base reasonably against a raid much less a wipe. Raiding, IE blowing in the gates and/or doors to plunder a base and/or destroy its contents should be something that is not overly impeded. Wiping a base entirely, on the other hand, should be a huge commitment of time and resources. As a time commitment metric, it should take roughly the same number of man-hours at wipe a well-built base as it did to build. Meaning if a tribe of 10 spend 40 hours to build a strong metal base stronghold, it should take 400 hours for a single individual to wipe it. If they can muster 100 raiders it can come down in roughly 4 hours. And that is just time commitment and assuming the tribe does not do significant repairs during that time, needless to say, the resource cost would be equally as high thus meaning even Alpha and Mega tribes would not be able to be as cavalier about wiping other players, tribes and especially servers.

In the end, I feel the real cause of turret spam is more the fact that the defender has lost control of potential breaching points as all passive defenses are no obstacle to raiders.

[Arkasaurio]

3 hours ago, Crows said:

• Takes 4 Charges to completely destroy 1 Metal Behemoth Gate.

Frankly I've never understood how anyone at WC looked at this and said, "yeah that's balanced." Only the math involved really matters here, explosives are far easier to grind than metal structures of any kind. I think Ark is likely intended to have a tilt toward the attacker (especially for offline raiding), which is fine, but I still think that would be true if C4 and rockets did half their current damage (rough example).

For the realism crowd - come on, its a game where flying dinos that likely weighed less than people do can carry you long distances, where you tame vicious predators by knocking them unconscious and "feeding them" - when's the last time someone tranquilizer darted a wolf/lion/tiger/shark gave it a pile of raw meat and when it woke it's suddenly your new best friend. But, playing that game, in a world where explosives are highly prevalent, it only makes sense that survivors would build metal and even stone structures to be explosive resistant. NATO had to redevelop a special kind of bomb to penetrate Iraqi fortification during Desert Storm - that's the Ark equivalent of the biggest alpha alliance beating up on a little 3 man somewhere . The point is, that if you assume structures are being built to resist explosives, the number necessary to take them down is not realistic. 4 C4 would punch a hole (maybe) in a metal wall (gate in this case) designed to take blasts, but is not going to take the whole thing down. Adding modular design to things like gates would be a cool game mechanic, but I don't see it getting added.

[Arkasaurio]

11 minutes ago, Mortus said:

I tend to agree with the general premise the OP stated, however, I feel like gates should be weak points to be breached. Watching PvP base building tutorials over time you tend to see a building meta of not trusting walls and other passive defensive measures to protect a base.

In the beginning, tutorials tended toward layered outer defenses and once they breach the main building using multi-layered walls, doors and maze sections to use up a raiding groups explosives before they can get to anything of value. Later bases showed less faith in walls and began using "Vault Dropping" to try and keep raiders out until vaults were reworked and this was no longer viable. Now the latest meta seems to be to build massive steel boxes with turrets spammed across the entire available outside area. Over the same time tribes especially Alpha and Mega tribes wiping players, tribes and worse whole servers becoming more and more common over simply raiding said entities.

Ultimately this seems to be a result of the fact that at least on official servers the size and offensive capability of raiding parties have grown many times what it was but not the means of defending one's base reasonably against a raid much less a wipe. Raiding, IE blowing in the gates and/or doors to plunder a base and/or destroy its contents should be something that is not overly impeded. Wiping a base entirely, on the other hand, should be a huge commitment of time and resources. As a time commitment metric, it should take roughly the same number of man-hours at wipe a well-built base as it did to build. Meaning if a tribe of 10 spend 40 hours to build a strong metal base stronghold, it should take 400 hours for a single individual to wipe it. If they can muster 100 raiders it can come down in roughly 4 hours. And that is just time commitment and assuming the tribe does not do significant repairs during that time, needless to say, the resource cost would be equally as high thus meaning even Alpha and Mega tribes would not be able to be as cavalier about wiping other players, tribes and especially servers.

In the end, I feel the real cause of turret spam is more the fact that the defender has lost control of potential breaching points as all passive defenses are no obstacle to raiders.

This is a pretty interesting point. If they were to buff walls to the point where attackers would either have to come through the front gates, dealing with turrets and other defenses, or spend hours hammering to get in it would lead to far more interesting raid and defense dynamics and significantly cut down on the number of turrets needed.

The unfortunate problem is that if they go in that direction, it becomes really tempting to completely wall things off (no door or gate access) and deal with the cost of replacing walls every time you need to get in or out. That's way less likely with something like a behemoth gate, but in a system like yours I would definitely replace the last 2-3 doors before my vault room and generator with metal walls every time I logged off.

[Mortus]

19 minutes ago, Arkasaurio said:

This is a pretty interesting point. If they were to buff walls to the point where attackers would either have to come through the front gates, dealing with turrets and other defenses, or spend hours hammering to get in it would lead to far more interesting raid and defense dynamics and significantly cut down on the number of turrets needed.

The unfortunate problem is that if they go in that direction, it becomes really tempting to completely wall things off (no door or gate access) and deal with the cost of replacing walls every time you need to get in or out. That's way less likely with something like a behemoth gate, but in a system like yours I would definitely replace the last 2-3 doors before my vault room and generator with metal walls every time I logged off.

It's not perfect, but definitely, walls and pillars need some sort of buff against explosives. Perhaps loosing more or all resources on removing walls or it could take longer to take out.

[natman]

Yes good post @Mortus!

I agree, gates and doorways should be a weak point, but currently they are too weak, which is why i would not buff walls and pillars but just nerf explosives. Gates already have lower hp plus they cover a huge hole with one single structure making them an effective target.

[Varanus8]

If they simply buff walls  or nerf c4 damage the only thing that will change is raiders will have to place more c4, it's just more preparation required which people will still do. I think they should replace c4 with a breaching charge that takes a few minutes to arm but will destroy a single metal entry point (door, gate, hatch) and two charges for walls. This would allow defenders to disarm the explosive after a mid-close quarters fight and make attackers be more cautious with where they want to breach. The only problem would be that turrets will become very challenging to deal with without soaking all the bullets so maybe they overheat for an hour after firing around a hundred rounds.

[Mendoza]

I don't know why the devs haven't added Higher Blueprint Tiers for structures yet ?

I mean everything else pretty much has this feature. I would love the idea of being able to build an ascendant behemoth gate at best or mastercraft stone walls ect....  Sure you'd need to farm more resources to make them, but this would help prevent bases from being destroyed so cheaply and quickly ! 

[Crows]

5 hours ago, Mortus said:

I tend to agree with the general premise the OP stated, however, I feel like gates should be weak points to be breached. Watching PvP base building tutorials over time you tend to see a building meta of not trusting walls and other passive defensive measures to protect a base.

In the beginning, tutorials tended toward layered outer defenses and once they breach the main building using multi-layered walls, doors and maze sections to use up a raiding groups explosives before they can get to anything of value. Later bases showed less faith in walls and began using "Vault Dropping" to try and keep raiders out until vaults were reworked and this was no longer viable. Now the latest meta seems to be to build massive steel boxes with turrets spammed across the entire available outside area. Over the same time tribes especially Alpha and Mega tribes wiping players, tribes and worse whole servers becoming more and more common over simply raiding said entities.

Ultimately this seems to be a result of the fact that at least on official servers the size and offensive capability of raiding parties have grown many times what it was but not the means of defending one's base reasonably against a raid much less a wipe. Raiding, IE blowing in the gates and/or doors to plunder a base and/or destroy its contents should be something that is not overly impeded. Wiping a base entirely, on the other hand, should be a huge commitment of time and resources. As a time commitment metric, it should take roughly the same number of man-hours at wipe a well-built base as it did to build. Meaning if a tribe of 10 spend 40 hours to build a strong metal base stronghold, it should take 400 hours for a single individual to wipe it. If they can muster 100 raiders it can come down in roughly 4 hours. And that is just time commitment and assuming the tribe does not do significant repairs during that time, needless to say, the resource cost would be equally as high thus meaning even Alpha and Mega tribes would not be able to be as cavalier about wiping other players, tribes and especially servers.

In the end, I feel the real cause of turret spam is more the fact that the defender has lost control of potential breaching points as all passive defenses are no obstacle to raiders.

Brilliantly said. Especially this quote: 

5 hours ago, Mortus said:

Raiding, IE blowing in the gates and/or doors to plunder a base and/or destroy its contents should be something that is not overly impeded. Wiping a base entirely, on the other hand, should be a huge commitment of time and resources. As a time commitment metric, it should take roughly the same number of man-hours at wipe a well-built base as it did to build. Meaning if a tribe of 10 spend 40 hours to build a strong metal base stronghold, it should take 400 hours for a single individual to wipe it. If they can muster 100 raiders it can come down in roughly 4 hours. And that is just time commitment and assuming the tribe does not do significant repairs during that time, needless to say, the resource cost would be equally as high thus meaning even Alpha and Mega tribes would not be able to be as cavalier about wiping other players, tribes and especially servers.

THIS! now that I think about it, not only are Metal Behemoths at a disadvantage, but bases in general are. What you've said highlights it so well as I've always known/thought about it, you know? the fact that most tribes/alpha/mega-tribes will make sure to WIPE a base completely after they're done raiding/breaching and stealing the loot, but in my opinion, it shouldn't even be -that- easy to breach a base. This is a massive problem when I sit back and really think about it. I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can be here, but honestly, metal bases should be much more time consuming to breach, rather than completely relying on turrets and defensive dinos.

[waterKeeper]

@Crows

 

[Crows]

13 hours ago, waterKeeper said:

@Crows

 

You have some very interesting ideas/suggestions in that topic actually. 

[Brayn]

I think every structure you blow should increase the resistance to explosives of all attached structures by 5%, within a certain radius, up to 100%, making it impossible to use explosives to breach at that point.  There would then be a 24 hour cooldown on when the structures began taking normal damage.  I think a radius of 10,000 units sounds appropriate.  Perhaps the unit radius shrinks dramatically once you hit a certain structure limit so as to avoid simply stacking 20 walls in every direction.  The buff would be visible on spyglass, including the timer.

Structures cannot be replaced once popped until there exists no more red enemy players within 10k units for at least an hour.  This prevents me from just spamming new structures over and over.  Defenders will be able to better focus defenses and use strategy to help online defend.  Offline raiders would REALLY need to scout and come up with a plan of attack less they waste explosives and time only to fail to breach by only blowing 20 structures.

Regarding Metal Beh Gates, the advantage they have as opposed to stone behemoth gates comes from suicide runs.  If the only thing that stands between me and the creamy insides of your base is a stone behemoth gate, I will put on my best flak, jump on a throwaway ptera, griff or land mount and keep suiciding that gate with 1 rocket in a prim rocket launcher until the gate goes down.  Then it's open season.  Doing this to a metal behemoth gate requires 4 successful suicide runs... which is a lot more costly and risky than just needing to slip 1 past the goalie.

[W4RN1NG]

If bases were impossible to raid, then no-one would PVP or raid, becuase if you are saying is should cost way more to raid, it encourges a more PVE meta, where actually grinding for the mats/bps has a better reward than making c4 and raiding. PVP is made so the reward from raiding is more than the reward from grinding.

[W4RN1NG]

tbh i agree tho building a small metal base is EXPENSIVE for small tribes

[Ronson12]

On 11/28/2017 at 2:19 PM, TracerBee said:

You are just talking about breaching, but if you wanted to wipe out that entire base, depending on the size, you would need alot more c4.

Strategic placement of traps, multi layering stuff, etc will help you out.

Farming metal, cp is much easier than gp, etc.

GP is a cake walk.nothing hard about it at all.