Griffin Balance

[KingGalahad]

2 minutes ago, ForzaProiettile said:

The problem is you get players who don't like or understand the concept of balance. We are talking about the same folks who hated the dino stats nerf, and the same folks who screamed about losing their OP flyers. These same folks are now screaming at the devs not to balance turrets. It's the same names, the same people that less then a year ago typed they were "done with this game" over the flyer nerf.

I used to have a Pteradon that could 1 hit Alpha Raptors. It had over 1000% damage on it. It was a great bird. Was it balanced? Absolutely not. I was one of the first who thanked the devs for nerfing tamed dino stats across the board. Players have to put game balance ahead of their own selfishness. It was not to my immediate benefit that my OP bird be nerfed but I could see long term that it would lead to a better game.

The turret issue isn't so much about balance as it is about server performance. In truth turrets now aren't powerful enough (hence the need for people to have so many which is why there is the server performance issue).

As for the flyer nerf, it did neither what the righthand said was its purpose nor did it balance gameplay. Yes, some flyers were OP. the across the board stamina nerf did nothing for balance. If they had removed the barrel attack and the ability for the ptero to pick people, that would have done more to bring balance than what they did do. In regards to their stated intent (to give each flyer a specific role), they completely failed in that regard as some flyers that were previously useful no longer had a use nor did the intended roles work out to how those flyers are used. Case in point; the ptero. Its role was supposed to be "scout". For it to truly be a scout, it would still need high stamina, but virtually no attack. Hence the need to remove the barrel roll, but leave stamina as is. 

These however are two entirely unrelated topics to the griffin, and as much as my replies to your off topic post further take this off topic, I would prefer to get back to the topic at hand. If I was wanting to discuss turret re-balancing, I would do so in one of the numerous threads on turrets. 

As for the Griffin, in certain aspects it is not completely balanced. I just don't want the Griffin to go down the same road as the other flyers and lose value to many players on this game. That is why I ask that rather than just call for nerfing the Griffin, why not propose alternatives to counter what you feel are the unbalanced aspects, as nerfs tend to make for broad far reaching and unintended consequences. Prior to the flyer nerf, I had a stable with all the fliers in it. Post nerf, there are several that I don't even bother to tame anymore. 

[Brayn]

Griffs are pretty OP.  I tamed a 145 that started with base 13k Hp, 750 stam and 270 melee.  It's now sitting at 25k HP, 2k stam and 270 melee.  That's utterly ridiculous.  I also have 2 xboxes, so when I go out to PvP I put my alt naked in the ally seat so you can't even pick me.  You end up grabbing my naked alt while I regroup.

For PvE with it, I can tranq anything short of a giga by just landing in front of it and shooting while it beats on me.  The only reason I use any other flyer is when I need something with lots of weight or that can pick larger tames.

I don't want them nerfed tho, I just want other flyers buffed.

Quetz speed buff and stam buff plus the abolity to put 2 plants and 4 autos on the platform.

Pteras need much better stam.

Argies need the dive bomb and a touch more speed.

Tappies need more weight and speed increase in the same amount as pteras, while keeping them slower than pteras.

Pelagornis and Moth should be removed from the flyer nerf.  No one ever complained that the Pelagornis or Moth was too good at its role.

[X111]

i suppose its not a statement of "the griffin is OP" but rather the question "IS the griffin OP?"

if you are able use the mount correctly, dive when appropriate, back peddle when required, land when necessary and use the speed boosts to its full potential then yes, the griffin can be overpowered.

if you're not able to do the above or are foot slogging it then yes you will consider it OP as you (general sense) are not benefiting from using one.

just an observation

[Olivar]

6 minutes ago, X111 said:

i suppose its not a statement of "the griffin is OP" but rather the question "IS the griffin OP?"

if you are able use the mount correctly, dive when appropriate, back peddle when required, land when necessary and use the speed boosts to its full potential then yes, the griffin can be overpowered.

if you're not able to do the above or are foot slogging it then yes you will consider it OP as you (general sense) are not benefiting from using one.

just an observation

This is a statement I can get behind.
I'm not going to deny that a Griffin in the right hands is extremely powerful and can take most things with ease, making even alpha encounters trivial.
In that regards, yes griffins are perhaps OP.

In my case and how I use them: Nope, I find them mediocre and feel way more comfortable on top of my flying lizard

[LouSpowells]

4 hours ago, johnm81 said:

Yes, it shows that there is an imbalance that needs to be fixed. Either by adjusting the griffin or by adjusting other flyers. 

Twisted? No mental strain here bro.

Yeah, like I said, I'm not following you down that path of crazy. Good luck with that.

[Panatheous]

21 hours ago, ForzaProiettile said:

I've been engaged in a lot of combat over the last 2 months both big and small and what I've noticed as foot soldier in these raids is that when it comes to air supremacy and taking out ground targets swiftly the Griffin is the go to dino. It seems to have no real weakness. It has a large health pool, its fast, you can shoot from it, you can't be whipped off it and it's attacks are very powerful especially its dive attack.

In short it seems to be almost like a pre nerf flyer in many respect. A lot of advantages with few disadvantages. There is no hard counter to this dino like there is for many other dinos. It is a jack of all trades and a master of most.

Which brings me up to my final point - is it balanced? I have to say from what I've seen it doesn't seem to be. The fact that you rarely see other flyers in battles these days, (even the mighty wyren is a rare sight) seems to be a good indicator that it definitely needs some tweaking in the balance department. If 90% of players are using one dino over the others then its a pretty good indicator that its not balanced properly.

Griffins are good at PvP and very versatile, but they are limited. They are unable to breed so you can't get static good stats and every one is different, they have a very low starting stam pool so you can't fly everywhere forever, they are terribly slow at starting up until they can get some altitude and some intertia, and they are terribly awkward at turning and flying in mutlidirection while hovering. Just like a person who can get headshots every time with a sniper, griffins are good for the right people. But they are just one tool out of many to fight aerial combat. If you see only griffins out on the battlefield, then you see some people who are terrible at PvP and are likely not going to win in the long run.

[AngrySaltire]

As a PvEr I would still chose a wyvern over a griffin alot of the time. Ok it depends on the situation but if I need to do some heavy hitting I would chose a wyvern over the griffin. If I get caught on the ground out of stamina I would much rather it be on wyvern back than griffin back, griffins just feel a bit too squishy. Griffins are great for fast traveling and can hit hard with the dive, but stll nothing beats an imprinted wyvern for versatility. 

[johnm81]

5 hours ago, LouSpowells said:

Yeah, like I said, I'm not following you down that path of crazy. Good luck with that.

But there is warm cookies and milk at the end....

[TheBanditKing]

Definitely in agreement that Griffins need to be tweaked.

I know there are a lot of people saying that Griffons are good as they are but the reality of pvp right is "How many griffins do they have?"

Griffins control/dominate almost every fight. They are incredibly OP. This is my opinion from many many fights/raids.

[SparkPug]

And I'm just here wondering long it will be between Aberration's release and people crying that all the new dino's are OP and need immediate and effective nerfing .

In reality the way I see it, no matter what WC does in the future there will never be any true sense of balance. Besides dino stat and mechanic complaints which have been done to death, the fact that we can get better blueprints for tools, weapons and saddles in combination with enough points into crafting, can allow for vastly superior items that give a definitive edge of one player over another, which would inevitably lead to people complaining that it's unfair.

Unless all stat increases, higher quality blueprints and unique dino mechanics are removed, and everyone and everything is given the same base level stats, movement speed, taming speed etc then the sense of 'balance' that everyone talks about is as achievable as chasing and finally catching your own shadow.

Something I feel that many people have forgotten is what makes us humans so unique. What makes us so unique in this world is how quickly we can adapt to changes in our environment. If you look at examples throughout our history, when have you ever seen a civilization or group of people lose a single battle, or fail in the development of technology and cry unfair! (besides modern sports but that is another story ). Adapt and overcome! Enjoy this game! For those who would say "But I can't enjoy it because xyz is overpowered!" I would say perhaps it is time to let go of humanities' bane of never being satisfied.

An example of a game that I really enjoyed, but died as a result of people crying nerf was called Loadout. In it you could unlock weapon upgrades and customize weapons in many ways. Were there some combinations that were considered OP? Yes! Did that stop me from having a blast? Hell no! My favourite combination weapon was a multi sticky bomb rocket launcher duo. One would place fiery exploding landmines, and one would place shocking landmines (which did the same shocking mechanic of the electricity jumping from one opponent to the next that we've seen in many games). My favourite tactic was to either coat a capture point or coat the flag point in CTF gamemode with these mines, and then watch as someone else triggered them and exploded in a shocking fiery blaze of glory. (A side effect of this was a bug where if I stood too close to wherever I coated a point with these mines, when they would detonate i would dc, but man it was fun!).

After a while thanks to a lot of complaining, certain weapon parts were nerfed. One part in particular the devs cheekily made reference to this by saying in it's description that a lot of users felt that it made the weapon feel off balance. While certain  combinations weren't as viable as before, they were still usable, and new combinations became the new meta, and the game was still fun!

What killed it eventually was people complaining that the bots in matches were too easy, or were too linear and easy to predict. The devs introduced new bots which threw everything out of proportion, in a 5v5 match sometimes they would spawn with a healing bot which made it 5v6. In combination with the previous weapon damage nerfs made them practically impossible to defeat. Very quickly people did start leaving the game, and now even the developers have quit. A very sad loss of a game with an incredible amount of potential.

Where am I going with this you may ask. Be careful of never being satisfied with what you have. If you keep complaining about what you perceive to be unfair, then it will eventually come back to bite you in ways you never thought of. Now you could say in the case of Loadout that the devs could have buffed the weapons, changed the spawning mechanics of the new bots etc but the damage was already done. One thing in that case that the devs didn't account for was another aspect of human nature. This is that if something gives us a bad taste in our mouth, it doesn't matter how or what changes are made afterword, we will not touch it with a 50 ft barge pole. Same with that game. Don't kill what you have because of an imaginary 'grass is greener' outlook on whatever is presented. Be happy with what you have!

[Dylan1602]

10 hours ago, TheBanditKing said:

Definitely in agreement that Griffins need to be tweaked.

I know there are a lot of people saying that Griffons are good as they are but the reality of pvp right is "How many griffins do they have?"

Griffins control/dominate almost every fight. They are incredibly OP. This is my opinion from many many fights/raids.

They are very OP, I'm an avid pvp player, and for the people saying do I have any? Yes of course, I have 6 because even I know they're OP and I'm not gonna miss out on it just because everyone thinks they're OP, I'm gonna make the most of it.

To begin with, their healthpool is ridiculous, they take a beating to kill, a high level griffin can tank hits like a god before having to swiftly fly away without the worry of being caught.

Their maneuverability is nearly as good as the Tapejara, not quite as good but nearly which in a pvp situation is incredible for faking wyverns and turning the odds in a matter of seconds. 

Their dive bomb/swipe is powerful but I don't mind it, it needs something to make it unique so I don't mind that how it is. Because at the end of the day it does take some degree of accuracy to make a good connection at full speed during an aerial battle.

Sniping off of the top of the griffin. This is something I think needs to be removed. Having 2 people being able to sit on top of a griffin and snipe down into peoples bases and tames, killing their passives is something I feel that should be removed. I think it is a cheap cowardly way of warfare. 

 

Generally, take their health down a bit because they're too tanky, they need to be a bit more squidgy. And remove their ability for sniping off the back of the griffin whilst riding. 

[Matilda]

Please do not nerf anythi.ng at all about Griffin in PvE. This mount was clearly made for rag and is so much fun. Do what you want in PvP but please speak for yourself. There are many counters to the Griffin: 1. Getting stuck clipped into a wild giga, dead. 2) d/c'ing above the scar, griffin will die. 3) freezing at the scar and diving I to lava, dead. 4) being curious at the castle and left clicking. 5)trying to hot tail it out of the cove and getting a little too close to the water. I could go on and on.

[Lurtz]

Just now, Matilda said:

Please do not nerf anythi.ng at all about Griffin in PvE. This mount was clearly made for rag and is so much fun. Do what you want in PvP but please speak for yourself. There are many counters to the Griffin: 1. Getting stuck clipped into a wild giga, dead. 2) d/c'ing above the scar, griffin will die. 3) freezing at the scar and diving I to lava, dead. 4) being curious at the castle and left clicking. 5)trying to hot tail it out of the cove and getting a little too close to the water. I could go on and on.

This seems kind of silly as most of these revolve around connection issues and player mistakes. Which simply don't count towards a "balanced" tame. Sorry to say it but given the evidence here, the Griffin needs a nerf. Beyond that, I doubt there would be any differential between PVP and PVE when it came to optimization and balancing issues. 

[Lurtz]

27 minutes ago, Dylan1602 said:

They are very OP, I'm an avid pvp player, and for the people saying do I have any? Yes of course, I have 6 because even I know they're OP and I'm not gonna miss out on it just because everyone thinks they're OP, I'm gonna make the most of it.

To begin with, their healthpool is ridiculous, they take a beating to kill, a high level griffin can tank hits like a god before having to swiftly fly away without the worry of being caught.

Their maneuverability is nearly as good as the Tapejara, not quite as good but nearly which in a pvp situation is incredible for faking wyverns and turning the odds in a matter of seconds. 

Their dive bomb/swipe is powerful but I don't mind it, it needs something to make it unique so I don't mind that how it is. Because at the end of the day it does take some degree of accuracy to make a good connection at full speed during an aerial battle.

Sniping off of the top of the griffin. This is something I think needs to be removed. Having 2 people being able to sit on top of a griffin and snipe down into peoples bases and tames, killing their passives is something I feel that should be removed. I think it is a cheap cowardly way of warfare. 

 

Generally, take their health down a bit because they're too tanky, they need to be a bit more squidgy. And remove their ability for sniping off the back of the griffin whilst riding. 

For the most part I agree with this, however I think the secondary rider should maintain the ability to use a weapon (as it is a two seater) 

 

Maybe only allow the second person to use a gun whilst the Griffin isn't moving? (hovering would enable a gun to be wielded) 

[Lurtz]

11 hours ago, johnm81 said:

But there is warm cookies and milk at the end....

....what kind of cookies? 

[Olivar]

Just now, Lurtz said:

....what kind of cookies? 

Narcoberry cookies.

IT'S A TRAP!

[Lurtz]

3 minutes ago, Olivar said:

Narcoberry cookies.

IT'S A TRAP!

DEAR GOD. 

[Lurtz]

I think at the end of the day, we might need to accept the fact that this game will eventually begin to have ever more powerful fliers. 

It is significantly easier to tame a Ptera than it is to tame a Grif or raise a wyvern. 

It is significantly easier to tame a trike than it is to get a bronto. 

Might just be time to understand that this Raptor<Rex situation will always exist in this game

Some Dinos

Are just better than others

In any and everyway. 

[Matilda]

12 minutes ago, Lurtz said:

This seems kind of silly as most of these revolve around connection issues and player mistakes. Which simply don't count towards a "balanced" tame. Sorry to say it but given the evidence here, the Griffin needs a nerf. Beyond that, I doubt there would be any differential between PVP and PVE when it came to optimization and balancing issues. 

Well I just thought that as everyone is talking in technicalities.... Technically.. what i listed is a counter to a griffin. It was stated that nothing will counter a griffin ^^

Its getting a little to testy in this thread  sense of humor failures are occurring all round.  

[ForzaProiettile]

53 minutes ago, Matilda said:

Please do not nerf anythi.ng at all about Griffin in PvE. This mount was clearly made for rag and is so much fun. Do what you want in PvP but please speak for yourself. There are many counters to the Griffin: 1. Getting stuck clipped into a wild giga, dead. 2) d/c'ing above the scar, griffin will die. 3) freezing at the scar and diving I to lava, dead. 4) being curious at the castle and left clicking. 5)trying to hot tail it out of the cove and getting a little too close to the water. I could go on and on.

Nothing you mentioned there is related specifically to the Griffin. You can do any of those mistakes on any flyer or dino. I understand you love your Griffin but the game needs to have balance.

[Matilda]

6 minutes ago, ForzaProiettile said:

Nothing you mentioned there is related specifically to the Griffin. You can do any of those mistakes on any flyer or dino. I understand you love your Griffin but the game needs to have balance.

O,..,O Is it really not that clear this is sarcastic/ an attempt to lighten the mood in this thread >.>

[Dylan1602]

2 minutes ago, Matilda said:

O,..,O Is it really not that clear this is sarcastic/ an attempt to lighten the mood in this thread >.>

To be fair I didn't get the sarcasm either.

[Dylan1602]

1 hour ago, Lurtz said:

For the most part I agree with this, however I think the secondary rider should maintain the ability to use a weapon (as it is a two seater) 

 

Maybe only allow the second person to use a gun whilst the Griffin isn't moving? (hovering would enable a gun to be wielded) 

Yeah I can compromise and agree with you there sure! Passenger can shoot but only when hovering. Remove the ability of the rider to shoot all together but keep the passengers ability. I like that. 

[Lurtz]

40 minutes ago, Matilda said:

Well I just thought that as everyone is talking in technicalities.... Technically.. what i listed is a counter to a griffin. It was stated that nothing will counter a griffin ^^

Its getting a little to testy in this thread  sense of humor failures are occurring all round.  

.....I think the lack of humor comes from your nonsensical reply to the above thread? 

 

Also, yes because not every thread is a place for jokes

especially jokes that don't seem to translate well. 

[Matilda]

Oh boy calm down already.  I didn't come here to cause offense or cause friction.