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Turret Changes: A Technical Talk about why.


TheRightHand
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The conversation continues, including feedback from TheRightHand on comments and concerns, in this thread:

 

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Turrets, were very suddenly being used in a configuration that was atypical, and up to 7x the number of turrets
Are you really saying that 100 turrets (tek, auto, psx) in a 10k unit square is typical? These configurations are incredibly sparse. We're forced to reduce our turret count by ~80% in some cases on the center. Increasing the damage is a good option (although 20% is a bit lax), but increasing the inventory is effectively pointless. Bringing more cakes is not difficult, we need equivalent dps not damage over a greater duration.
Perhaps introduce a new turret with more expensive ammo that hits substantially harder? Re-use the same turret code, but just adjust values?
Atypical..... that is the opposite of typical. As in not seen prior or not commonplace.
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This. The new stego meta along with large masses of bullet sponges will rip bases wide open. You take just ONE of the current near 8k base hp stegos and put them against 100 turrets on a wall and 100% of the time the base gets dropped. A drastic change such as what you guys propose would require a MASSIVE rework of almost every dino in the game along with the turret dps rework itself. And honestly, most of us know that this change come the 5th, will be RIP for alot of peoples bases. Even so numbers do not lie, but as most of us experienced, Rag servers were terrible lag from the release on new servers, with or without the turrets. I don't think majority of the PVP player base would ever agree to such a drastic change to turrets like this. Calling this off and letting people know you are actually working to find a better solution to solve lag problems, be it new server hosting/possible turret limits (not to this extent)/even figuring out why this problem is majority on Rag servers rather than island/center/SE would be the better business choice honestly. [mention=3836]TheRightHand[/mention]
Or, perhaps a rework of the turrets system to combat the stego meta. If the turret doesnt have clear line of site to target, it should not fire. Since the player riding the stego can be sheilded behind the fins, the turret should not fire if set to players only. This would force you to send in the dinos alone or find a new way to tank. That, or reduce stego base hp and hp increase to balance with the new changes to the turret system.
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How much strain on the server dose the dinos doing constant checks for player location so they can turn their heads to face the player ? 

How about the random noises they make , or the tails swingimg ? Or the poop dropping all the time ? Or lights and turrets and 2000 electric cables checkimg for power constant ? Or the flowing water from taps ? 

It seems to me that all these things put a strain on the server with comstant checks , and maybe cutting some of these would help server performance. Could even be that whem a server reaches a low enough level of performance that they auto disable ? 

 

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13 minutes ago, J0hnnySw1f7 said:

Or, perhaps a rework of the turrets system to combat the stego meta. If the turret doesnt have clear line of site to target, it should not fire. Since the player riding the stego can be sheilded behind the fins, the turret should not fire if set to players only. This would force you to send in the dinos alone or find a new way to tank. That, or reduce stego base hp and hp increase to balance with the new changes to the turret system.

That would give free base raid to stego riders.

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mounted minigun turret to shoot non-mounted tames, but reduce their range to be the equivalent of the auto turret.

Can someone explain what this is all about? Does this mean an unmounted ... mounted minigun will act like a auto turret? Are you not able to shoot unmounted dinos with a mounted minigun turret? if so when was that a thing? ...

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Setting aside all of the nonsense drama and dev bashing, the fact that there is a performance issue with super turreted bases is a fact.  That has been part of the meta for a while, but I can attest to insane lag and stalling just flying close to some of the new bases.  Also setting aside drama, the game is currently not balanced for defense and a massive DPS is the only way to protect a base from being offline wiped before you can get your crew online.  For the record I have played in all range of tribe sizes from solo to "mega", and in Ark we essentially have several games (or "metas") going on at once, so arguing from one perspective alone is missing a lot.

All that said, it seems clear that the simplest solution to both issues is to keep the count limit but add a couple new tiers of turret.  This can maybe be tied to the turret additions from S+, but it might be better from a game play perspective to add a medium and large turret type above what exists, with the largest using new shell types designed to kill dinos.  Make the new turrets and shells expensive as heck and do x2 and x6 the damage of current autos.  That would address both issues without changing game balance. 

This is a great game, and I respect the fact that you are putting this out for discussion, thank you.  Ignore the flaming and childish commentary, most of us old hands playing from the start would not miss the drama from the haters if they leave anyway.

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i have a idea, let 1 building be a sort of a sensor to track, so the turrets won't scan every time.. it wil solve the lag.

Same thing for the plant species x... 

and adding a way to upgrade turrets to make them better and defendable... but 100 turret inclusive species x is really nonsense if u can't upgrade them...

 

 

if we keep going like that we would have soon a ceiling, spikes, and wall nerf... then there will be no game left.. 


 

 

 

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Honestly the idea of being able to upgrade turrets multiple times 2x - 8x the dmg wouldnt be so bad but maybe not limit 100 for plants tech and turrets all in 1 maybe making them cost the same when upgrading a single turret to act like 8 turrets for the price of 8 turrets but having a base or a dino pen with 100 plants turrets and tech is really hard you have to look at each side of the base top and bottom and also inside its really hard to defend with that limit a higher but yeah i feel if we cant have numbers more power would be the only option

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6 minutes ago, Nokosa said:

I have never, in my 25 years of gaming, seen a company nerf an extremely essential part of their game to make up for their own servers poor performance. I don't even play PvP, but making changes that ruin your players experience so your game runs prettier? What the poop biscuit?

It doesnt riun the experience if implemented properly, it just changes it. And this thread was created to collect suggestions and feedback to allow a proper implementation :)

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Hello, I will just repeat here what I already said on steam pages, Reducing number of turrets and puting a cap on it is fine, ok 100 is mybe a little too low, 200 in my opinion would be more optimal, but there need to be compesation for the dps, 20% increase is a joke, so like so many before me said, either just add turrets with like 2x 5x 10x dmg that ofc cost that much to make or create some sort of tool that you would use to upgrade dmg up to 10x on current ones, togeather with ammo storage increase. And most people will be happy with it as long as we can accomplish same lvl of security with 100 turrets compared to what is atm 1000 turrets. 

there is also other things where you can optimise game, imagine base 10x10x10 atm you need to place 600 objects to make one... how about adding behemont foundations walls and floors, so same base size with 6 objects ... imagine how much it would help optimisation wise. And also allowing upgrades of fridges and airconditioners, forges, chem benches, if you could have one that you can upgrade 10 or 20 times, to get same effect you would not need to place 100 fridges and 20 chem benches... it would also help much with optimisation. next thing water pipes... why dont you allow to place well anywhere and make it unlimited watersource, this way we could get rid of ugly hundreads of thousands pipes that are placed all around map. 

mybe also add something like chicken coops, or i would call them dino hoops and barn like thingy, where you could "upload" and by upload I mean store your egg producing dinos, they could produce eggs faster and auto store them inside barn/ hoop.. one object instead of 50 egg laying dinos... trust me it would help a lot with server performance.

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I appreciate the explanation given for the decision, for me communication is key. 

Now maybe this was already mentioned, as I haven't gotten through all the posts, but couldn't you instead change the way turrets behave?

For example use a master and slave turret situation.  You have one master turret that does all the scanning, and then slave turrets who do nothing.  Then when the master turret detects a target, it triggers the slave turrets to follow suit. 

This is just a thought.  But something really has to be done aside from this extreme limitation.

I'm sure this situation is great for a 5 to 10 man tribe with a 20x20 base, but when you have 100-200 man tribe, you can't possibly have that many people in a 20x20 base.

I truly hope you find an alternate solution because I would really hate to see a game that I love, come to an end over something like this.

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I would appreciate if WC could answer this question that I've posted in another thread.  It is a valid question.  There needs to be a clarification to how the turret change will be done, because a mobile base/rafts with turrets can cause unintentional problems as exploits either for enemies or allies.  Allies can just send mobile bases to other allies bases to bypass the tribe turret limit to boost the turret defenses or Megatribes splitting into smaller tribe and each of those tribes focus on 1 area to build their turret clusters around their superbase.  If WC were to apply a blanket turret limit regardless of tribes, then an enemy could just simply send a mobile base to an enemy base and trigger the turret limit and shut down the whole base defense.

 

 

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9 hours ago, TheRightHand said:

Dino idle animations and head-scanning are done clientside-- they cause no load on the server.

Can we get the option to disable then?  My base started lagging hard when i had 14 bred rexes stuck together.  Soon as I spread them out and they weren't rubbing each other each swing my game ran a ton better.

also, it's hard for me to believe you about turrets causing rag servers to suffer such massive join lag and time dilation.  One because you've lost my trust over the past two years and two because the lag isn't getting any better the more bases we wipe.

turrets need to be upped 3-4x to compensate and/or stegos need a massive nerf, to saddle armor on par with turtles, no veg cakes and better angles to pop riders.  Heck, even making them quetz carry only, not wyvern, would be a huge improvement.

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I understand the technical part. But also I agree. We are defenceless. We need better turrets. Not just higher damage but different types that complement each other. For example, anti-air, sea, ground turrets. Wouldnt they have to cover less ground and less targets??

On a side note, it would be fun to be able to have better strategies when placing turrets, build a base tower defence style

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Wildcard Do you really wanna know what is also not enjoyable to play at all on ragnarok pve servers and also other official servers? The god dam 255 ping! Every single weekend, on every single pm time, on the double event.

if you want the truth, I rather fight against a tribe with like, for example, 10million turrets then having a god dam stupid ping 255 stopping me and of course other players to enjoy the game, being able to move and do some thing. Its been like 3 months, i think, we are having this Issue and you Devs still don't do anything about it, I don't know if you don't care about it or you are to lazy to try to solve something that, I think, is simple to do, other devs from other games would simply solve the issues in 2 days and you guys take a god dam year to do some thing about it.

Of course I presume you don't play on our servers so you have no idea what is really going on, for sure you play on your private servers with good ping and fps and you think its all ok, having no idea or don't care what is going on the public official servers. 

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Ok ,cuz this is so serious thing for game and impact to players and game,i was thinking and 1 of my solutions is:

Every turret have his radius that not allow to build another turret close to each other. I will explain.

ALL NUMBERS I AM USING ARE RANDOM,JUST FOR EXAMPLE.

if u placeing turrets of flat ground of foundations, and after u place 1 turret on 1 foundation,next turret u want to place need to be 2-3 foundations far from other(on any side), this will force players to stop building so much turrets in close range but will not put any limit. Also this is going with 30-50% incrised dmg,so every turret can replace 2-5 turrets from past. for big bases they will have to reduce turrets even more, or to made more "lines of deffence" but still thay will have same results like before i think. This should reduce FPS usage even more, and all will be happy(this is my opinion,sorry on bad english,and pls dont talk bed to me,cya)

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