Turret Changes: A Technical Talk about why.

[TheRightHand]

2 minutes ago, ooStuStu said:

So then everyone saying bronto tail swing causes server lag is a LIE!

well i'll be damn 

Attacks are done server-side, and in certain extremely large dinos they are networked, but the vast majority of them are clientside.

[invincibleqc]

34 minutes ago, Drenith said:

Would we be able to tell the power level via spyglass or would it be a bit of a game of chance when attempting to raid as sometimes turrets will barely tickle and other times you'll get straight demolished?

Allowing it to be spied using a spyglass could be a good idea, but I kinda like the concept of it being a surprise. Could spice things a bit, no? It could adds more strategies in the sense that you would need to take a few hits to know the power of your target's defenses. I mean, much like when you fight someone on foot and he shoot you in the head with a longneck, you get the surprise effect of it being a primitive or an ascendant that insta-break your helmet.

 

Overall, I was just throwing the idea cause I thought it was worth mentioning. I didn't brainstorm into every aspect it could implies. The health point you did bring is certainly valid and I guess it should be buffed as well so that raiders have to spend equivalent explosive resources to breach your defenses.

 

3 minutes ago, ooStuStu said:

So the everyone saying bronto tail swing causes server lag is a LIE!

well i'll be damn 

 

I assume this is completely different. The bronto tail is an "attack". While the animation might be handled client-side, the tracings to know if you hurt something, or if you harvest something, is most likely done server-side. EDIT: See reply ^.

[ooStuStu]

6 minutes ago, invincibleqc said:

Allowing it to be spied using a spyglass could be a good idea, but I kinda like the concept of it being a surprise. Could spice things a bit, no? It could adds more strategies in the sense that you would need to take a few hits to know the power of your target's defenses. I mean, much like when you fight someone on foot and he shoot you in the head with a longneck, you get the surprise effect of it being a primitive or an ascendant that insta-break your helmet.

 

Overall, I was just throwing the idea cause I thought it was worth mentioning. I didn't brainstorm into every aspect it could implies. The health point you did bring is certainly valid and I guess it should be buffed as well so that raiders have to spend equivalent explosive resources to breach your defenses.

 

 

I assume this is completely different. The bronto tail is an "attack". While the animation might be handled client-side, the tracings to know if you hurt something, or if you harvest something, is most likely done server-side. EDIT: See reply ^.

I used the word swing but i should have said sway ... but now i have it on good authority

 

As for being able to spyglass the turrets tier ..it should be a surprise ... that would make would be raiders at least a little skeptical before they test them

[s3aHaWKS]

Please listen to us. Not like you "listened" to us on the flier nerf. Nobody cares if we have 1 frame per second. That's Ark! We like the way the game is now, and theoretically with the launch of the full game, raiding should be scaled up, not down! Thousands of people have signed a petition that hasn't even been out for 12 hours, begging you guys to push it back. Please listen to us and at least try to reconsider your options. You will lose a lot of players doing this, and it is not something that can be so simply undone. Ark being laggy is just a part of the game

[ooStuStu]

5 minutes ago, s3aHaWKS said:

Please listen to us. Not like you "listened" to us on the flier nerf. Nobody cares if we have 1 frame per second. That's Ark! We like the way the game is now, and theoretically with the launch of the full game, raiding should be scaled up, not down! Thousands of people have signed a petition that hasn't even been out for 12 hours, begging you guys to push it back. Please listen to us and at least try to reconsider your options. You will lose a lot of players doing this, and it is not something that can be so simply undone. Ark being laggy is just a part of the game

Everyone said the same thing when they announced the flyer nerf ... they will have to do something other than what they have stated... turrets will have to have a huge buff or add new tiers but they are not going to back down ... just so you know everyone who has signed that petition has already paid for the game ... So it has no real power ..sure if everyone really does quit that signed it that may have a financial impact down the road in future players but nothing significant... the game will change and we will have to adapt to it

[invincibleqc]

1 minute ago, s3aHaWKS said:

Please listen to us. Not like you "listened" to us on the flier nerf.

Hmmm. They actually listened to us. They re-balanced them based on feedbacks, also implemented land attacks, etc. But hey, stop living in the past; tired of hearing about the flyer nerfs.

2 minutes ago, s3aHaWKS said:

Nobody cares if we have 1 frame per second. That's Ark! We like the way the game is now, and theoretically with the launch of the full game, raiding should be scaled up, not down! Thousands of people have signed a petition that hasn't even been out for 12 hours, begging you guys to push it back. Please listen to us and at least try to reconsider your options. You will lose a lot of players doing this, and it is not something that can be so simply undone. Ark being laggy is just a part of the game

Everyone cares! Just check all the reports on the forums, or the steam reviews, or all the articles that complain about rubber-banding, timeout, crashes, etc. I'm also tempted to say that the petition is useless. Players are mad, and are raging about it without thinking about the benefits of the overall game in the long run. Sure there are some serious balacing needed accordingly to that limit, and this is exactly the point of this thread. Share you ideas, what the limit will cause to you, and why, and how, etc. so devs can see the impact it will have and make the proper balacing. Spamming (talking in general here), "I will quit, your game is dead, I go back to minecraft" is just not helping to move forward.

[Krysa]

Quote

Dino idle animations and head-scanning are done clientside-- they cause no load on the server.

Which is strange because there's no desync between the dino choosing which player it is looking at, if it was entirely client-side, couldn't the dino be looking at two different clients at the same time?
If I leave render with one client and the dino is looking at the client 2, client 1 comes into render, what's telling client 1 that the dino is looking at client 2?

[ooStuStu]

Basically the big turret "walls of death" are the only way to properly defend against an attack while you are offline.... the reason why is DPS big death walls put out a high DPS... so give us the DPS with upgrade-able turrets ... turrets that reach 4 to 5 times the damage of the current version ... make the cost of those upgrades equal or greater than the cost of 4 to 5 more turrets .... hence giving the same DPS as 4 or 5 but with only one.... it is the only option that makes sense to me

 

[mircoct]

@TheRightHandWhat about a new mega turret? My english is bad but I try to explain

Like the most post here, if u make this u need buff not of 20% but more.. 100turrets must make the damage of 1000 turrets, for crafting them and bullets 100 of them need the resource of 1000 of them ect.. This will kill not the mega tribe but will kill thè small tribe.. Now my idea is this:

U can make this limit of 100 turrets but a new mega turrets with new bullets with 10x more damage, health andare cost for crafting, u can put a limit of 4 turrets for area(like the limit of the actually turrets) so we can have the damage of 500 turrets but we have only 104 turrets

[invincibleqc]

1 minute ago, Krysa said:

Which is strange because there's no desync between the dino choosing which player it is looking at, if it was entirely client-side, couldn't the dino be looking at two different clients at the same time?
If I leave render with one client and the dino is looking at the client 2, client 1 comes into render, what's telling client 1 that the dino is looking at client 2?

The server is most likely networking an array of players and their position. Then the client performs some logical checks and know which one was looked at first or it might actually be that you see the dino looking at client 1 and client 2 see the dino looking at himself and clients are never synced. TheRightHand just confirmed that it has no impact on the servers at all so why trying to dig? I mean, this thread is about turrets, period. Saying "hey, improve this, or that" is just not relevant. I'm pretty sure they will come with more optimisation down the road but today is the turrets. The data proves that they have a major impact on servers ruining everyone experience of the game so they have to act. So again, throw ideas based on how you would see the turrets to be balanced while also being limited to 100 in a 67 foundations radius.

[Krysa]

4 minutes ago, invincibleqc said:

The server is most likely networking an array of players and their position. Then the client performs some logical checks and know which one was looked at first or it might actually be that you see the dino looking at client 1 and client 2 see the dino looking at himself and clients are never synced. TheRightHand just confirmed that it has no impact on the servers at all so why trying to dig? I mean, this thread is about turrets, period. Saying "hey, improve this, or that" is just not relevant. I'm pretty sure they will come with more optimisation down the road but today is the turrets. The data proves that they have a major impact on servers ruining everyone experience of the game so they have to act. So again, throw ideas based on how you would see the turrets to be balanced while also being limited to 100 in a 67 foundations radius.

The whole reason for the turret nerf is purely based on server performance, inquiring on other possible ways server performance could be improved and getting clarity on why things could or couldn't work is completely relevant.

[TheRightHand]

It's not well highlighted, but  it's in the post.

Even if we literally did nothing but let the server calculate turrets, the server fps would still be 2.5 (in a worst case scenario)

The actual gameplay tick cost for EVERYTHING IN THE WHOLE GAME except turrets on a server that is well trafficked and has 70 active players on is about 240-250ms

Turrets alone can be 400-500ms

That's twice the cost EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE ENTIRE GAME

There's no way to "make up the difference" by changing some other part of the game.

[Zederia]

@TheRightHand

 

And we DEFINITELY need more defenses than just turrets. Why not start adding some? (and NOT in TEK tier, 95% of the playerbase, or more.. is not, and cannot get to tek tier as it is now)

 

Specifically ranged defenses

[s3aHaWKS]

2 minutes ago, TheRightHand said:

It's not well highlighted, but  it's in the post.

Even if we literally did nothing but let the server calculate turrets, the server fps would still be 2.5 (in a worst case scenario)

The actual gameplay tick cost for EVERYTHING IN THE WHOLE GAME except turrets on a server that is well trafficked and has 70 active players on is about 240-250ms

Turrets alone can be 400-500ms

That's twice the cost EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE ENTIRE GAME

There's no way to "make up the difference" by changing some other part of the game.

But we are fine with 2.5fps like nobody cares

[ooStuStu]

4 minutes ago, TheRightHand said:

It's not well highlighted, but  it's in the post.

Even if we literally did nothing but let the server calculate turrets, the server fps would still be 2.5 (in a worst case scenario)

The actual gameplay tick cost for EVERYTHING IN THE WHOLE GAME except turrets on a server that is well trafficked and has 70 active players on is about 240-250ms

Turrets alone can be 400-500ms

That's twice the cost EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE ENTIRE GAME

There's no way to "make up the difference" by changing some other part of the game.

It is obvious that we will need stronger turrets... because walls with a 1000 turrets were sufficient to defend against an attack .. now that reduced by 90% it will no longer be effective so have upgrade-able turrets to make up for the loss in DPS ... and we are done ... Your welcome ... we can move on to the next subject .. lol 

[Zederia]

Just now, ooStuStu said:

It is obvious that we will need stronger turrets... because walls with a 1000 turrets were sufficient to defend against an attack .. now that reduced by 90% it will no longer be effective so have upgrade-able turrets to make up for the loss in DPS ... and we are done ... Your welcome ... we can move on to the next subject .. lol 

that won't solve your problem AT ALL, I already know how to bypass 100 turrets, no matter how much damage you throw at me (for the most part)

[s3aHaWKS]

@TheRightHand since you guys clearly only care about what important people have to say... please watch both of these videos. You guys say that you listen to the community, but you clearly don't, so how about you actually listen to us for ONE DAMN TIME. Even more ironic, you guys don't listen to the people that are actually playing official PvP, because clearly you guys don't play it. 

 

[Drenith]

1 minute ago, Zederia said:

that won't solve your problem AT ALL, I already know how to bypass 100 turrets, no matter how much damage you throw at me (for the most part)

you're looking to solve a different problem. The immediate issue is that WC has profiled the game and turrets are the bottleneck. If they are going to reduce the number of turrets we need a way to compensate for the damage in a way that is reasonable for WC to quickly implement. A base defense overhaul would be an entirely separate undertaking I think (unless they are okay with the turret lag while the overhaul is designed)

[HighDBoom]

KayD thanks for your explaining. But know pls listen to us "PvP" Community.

Everyone rather would play on your 2.5 FPS Servers than having 100 Turrets in your base.. As a bigger group of people you cant protect your thousend of thousend hard work. All your bases you will build are raidable in 15 mins. One Stego 30k HP 75 Armor saddle plus 10 veggie cakes can easily outdrain 100 turrets and blow inside your (small building. because you cant build bigger building anymore because 100 turrets are for a small 5x5x4 base)...

this game is not an early access anymore. its pretty much unfair to make such big game breaking changes after the game is official launched. people already build massive dino pens or other nice building which we cant protect anymore... people will just crosstravel with 1 Flak Set (1500 Armor/1500 Dura) medbrews and a beer. run with high movementspeed

inside your large base complex and blow up your crafting areas (destroy the forges benches smithys fridges etc.) .... if a griefing group of 2-3 + can raid all bases now easily..

 

We cant properly defend our hard work... The grind is useless ... people will loose motivation and quit your game because its like "RUST"...such a failgame.

 

And if your enemies are coming with 10 brontos or 10 paracers they will just raid a base in 5 mins....

 

grinding for thousend hours stuff which isnt well defend cause the game mechanic doesnt allow it .... you will loose it in 5 mins... isnt that demotivating.

all those 100% imprint dinos.. people wake up during the nights even if they have to work on the next day and imprint the dinos... they will just get meat runned easily because

you guys WC doesnt allow us to buil proper defences.

 

 

I agree the lag is horrible too. but 99% of the community (expect the PVE ppl cause they wanna see the salt) prefers the lag until you found other ways of adjustments.

[Evil9t]

Tbh you guys should Rethink the patch. Take more time for that and disable First the dino tale movemend. After that it would be maybe better and people would be Happy and i Think ist Not the turrets are Making the lag ist more ur Hardware and your servers. Btw people would Take rather the lag then this hillarious update

[Rofelo]

26 minutes ago, TheRightHand said:

It's not well highlighted, but  it's in the post.

Even if we literally did nothing but let the server calculate turrets, the server fps would still be 2.5 (in a worst case scenario)

The actual gameplay tick cost for EVERYTHING IN THE WHOLE GAME except turrets on a server that is well trafficked and has 70 active players on is about 240-250ms

Turrets alone can be 400-500ms

That's twice the cost EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE ENTIRE GAME

There's no way to "make up the difference" by changing some other part of the game.

Is it possible to make up the difference by having on game server per physical machine?

If so then the issue would be money?

[Olivar]

@TheRightHand

If the cause is so much turrets being build by people, what about removing the reason for having so many turrets?
E.g if you'd remove the bullet soaking ability, people would theoretically be inclined to build less turrets.
I'm just brainstorming here, but in good will the turret count would decrease, you guys get what you want, and the salt on the PvP community would decrease.

[Jamage007]

Then why did our legacy servers run much better than our current server when we had at least 3x the amount of turrets and the server as a whole probably had at least 2x the amount of turrets? Even with twice as many people on our legacy ran better.

20% buff is pathetic for how many turrets we are going to have to pull down and raiding 2000 turrets is way too easy as is. Bullet soakers will need a massive nerf or im going to be able to offline raid alpha's by myself.

You say only 15 out of the 150 worst performing servers are pve but pve servers still lag like crazy even without massive amounts of turrets. I sense other issues in play here also that could probably be fixed.

Massive amounts of unneeded Dino's seems to be what kills the fps and causes server lag. Rework the kibble system and don't make us require to have so many.

Devs should come to our server and spawn in a tek base and 100 full turrets and see how long you last. Trust me it wont be long. If none of you are online I will solo wipe the entire base.

I would much rather deal with the lag than be offline wiped over and over again because of bad game design. If we do get wiped over this I will probably quit, wont be buying the season pass, will be telling my mates who are waiting for the windows 10 version to come play with us not to buy the game and despite over 6k hours will be leaving a bad review as this is not what I paid good money for.

RIP Ark pvp its been fun

[Meshi]

Thank you for background info about Turret changes its highly welcomed.I think amount of turrets on bases grown as soaking bullets  starts to be only raiding tactic. It starts back back then with immortal quetzals. So platform building was changed. Then Hp  turtles. Turret targeting was improved to shoot off driver. And now stego plates. If you will make  raider on stego mortal again. Ppl will be forced to come back with  different strategies then soaking of bullets. AKA there will be lower need for turret walls.

[Rofelo]

What if you make it so we can get more out of each turret? Make each turret represent 5 turrets by increasing health and damage by 5X and cost by 5X?

Can you nerf Armor as a whole and nerf the tanking of bullets meta?