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Turret change discussion megathread


Rancor

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In an attempt to increase server tick rate we need to use less turrets. So Sure lets leave the 100 Limit but make a new turret costing 10X as much, consuming 10X bullets per shot, and do 10X dmg. In an attempt to be able to release it quickly we can even reuse the same code, animations, and models as the regular turret (possibly just increase size). To me this seems like it could be an easy fix to a huge problem. It allows a tribe who wants to farm and grind out huge base defense to still do so and without bogging the server down. We love grinding out hours of work in this game and we want to still be able to do that. Without this turret a cap is put on a tribes defense potential and will make 3 man tribes almost the same as a 30 man tribe in terms of defense and this is not good for anyone. A small nerf to the old turret or buff to this new turret could even incentivise smaller tribes to build say 4 of these and 10 normal instead of 50 normal turrets. The crafting recipie could even include 10 Normal autos in the recipe to allow tribes to easily start to convert to the new cleaner turret. I think this idea had a lot of potential. If we are worried about DPS concentration being out of balance with this we can limit the distance these can be placed next to each other by a couple foundations, just as was done with Tek Forcefields.

TLDR: Lets make a 10X auto turret so we can use 90% less turrets without changing the meta!

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On 18/11/2017 at 4:46 AM, ForzaProiettile said:

See your stuck in this mindset that PVP servers are somehow meant to be full of friendly and loving people. It should be customary to slaughter each other without giving a damn. There is not enough PVP happening on servers atm because everyone wants to hold hands, be allies of everyone else and complain about some ghost called a "griefer".

Hopefully this change will herald a new Dark Age for ARK PVP. More slaughter and regular combat happening daily on servers. Let the blood flow. 

You talk like if you just started playing ark, you know how much time its take to get all the kibble dino, farm some proper dino with good stats to go raid, etc etc? You almost must take ark as a second job to keep playing. After you get wiped will you feel to restart at 0 and do all the same crap all over again? That is why we have a lot of defence because you dont want to start at 0 again and spend another 200 hours getting back to your position. And there is actually war and pvp every time not every month, go more in pvp server lol. Some people say that even in pve where they got no turret, its still lagging. Personally I don't think turret is a problem to lag, the dev just use it as an excuse to try to get rid of mega tribe so more people buy the game and they make more money. Its also a lazy way to try to fix the lag.. if they want to do that turret limit bull.. they should of did it before relase, not 3 month when base have already been build.. anyways, #ready4release 

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2 hours ago, Glerian said:

And I get the issue people have with "griefers" but they have to remember, those guys have to have a large base to generate the kind of stuff necessary to raid. And THEIR base will have the turret limitations too.

Ehhh, no. "Griefers" are the kind of Bobs that run around butt naked with a Club on a Speed build, the only dino they own is a Pteranodon, and the only thing they build is 2-3 Wood/Stone Foundations so they can plop a Fabricator, a Forge, and some Mortar & Pestles on it and start making C4. That's the extent of how much they build/own. They don't play to own anything themselves, they play to destroy everything that everyone else owns. They'd rather despawn MC/Asc Flak BPs than take them (even though they're butt naked), just so their victims won't have the chance to reclaim them. They also plop Wooden Spike Walls right on top of spawn points, for "lulz". Hence the term "Griefer".  They exhibit some of the most toxic, shortsighted sociopathic behavior that you see in gamers, and then wonder why over time the number of people they have to victimize dwindles as everyone leaves the game (which means less fun for them too). There's a difference between "Griefers" and "PvPers".

The most you can do to a griefer, is to knock them out, and handcuff them inside a cage. Now though, they have a way out by rapidly eating their own poop (literally).

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11 minutes ago, Daedros said:

Ehhh, no. "Griefers" are the kind of Bobs that run around butt naked with a Club on a Speed build, the only dino they own is a Pteranodon, and the only thing they build is 2-3 Wood/Stone Foundations so they can plop a Fabricator, a Forge, and some Mortar & Pestles on it and start making C4. That's the extent of how much they build/own. They don't play to own anything themselves, they play to destroy everything that everyone else owns. They'd rather despawn MC/Asc Flak BPs than take them (even though they're butt naked), just so their victims won't have the chance to reclaim them. They also plop Wooden Spike Walls right on top of spawn points, for "lulz". Hence the term "Griefer".  They exhibit some of the most toxic, shortsighted sociopathic behavior that you see in gamers, and then wonder why over time the number of people they have to victimize dwindles as everyone leaves the game (which means less fun for them too). There's a difference between "Griefers" and "PvPers".

The most you can do to a griefer, is to knock them out, and handcuff them inside a cage. Now though, they have a way out by rapidly eating their own poop (literally).

Lol you know most of these so called griefers are alpha on their own servers and only come to your server to pvp because they are friends with everyone on their own server .  They are the true pvpers , why give nolife alphas the pleasure of blowimg up your fob ? You know its much more annoying for tbem when they have nothing to hit back

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9 hours ago, J0hnnySw1f7 said:
On 11/18/2017 at 2:35 AM, EmperorDatBoi said:
I'm leaving ark because of this. i have spent so much time on official and now its all going down the drain. Bases cannot be defended with just 100 turrets. We can easily get past. its going to be way too hard to defend and way to easy to raid. Thats 25 Turrets on each side of the base, and then turret towers and internal turrets? You would have about 15 turrets on each side of the base and ask ANYONE in the ark community. it would be a piece of cake. 100 turrets wont stop a titan by the time it walks up and smashes them. There is no safety and its going to be a constant grind and constant wipe. Please don't change this, leave the turrets how they are and actually optimise your server and client. You have just killed your game. Anyways im going to go buy another game. GG

Trust me, you will be much happier. I still come back and play occasionaly and its much more enjoyable that way.

It's much more enjoyable to play unnoficials overall. The ark community needs to do WC a favor and just move over to unnoficials. It will Save WC overhead from monthly server costs which im assuming they'd invest in other areas, free up their time so they can spend it on other time costly chores/tasks, etc, etc.

Ive honestly met a few individuals who successfully lasted a few months admining their own private servers with populations near max. Not only did they technically employ friends to handle issues and rule breaking in game, but turned a decent profit for themselves via donations and in game pay to win scenarios (not to harshly pay to win) to where they could pay for their dedi and probably pay off their credit card, like.. 

I'm appalled more haven't hopped on this train or why the unnoficial community hasn't really stayed faithful to such servers as to promote these types of servers. 

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You know, even tho I am not at all concerned by the turret change (playing on a Legacy PvE) I do think this issue and solutions are both way too simple.

I understand devs have data and that data points to this being a major issue. Fine. 

But the solution is too simple. And the said solution only barely stops the ''bleeding of the wound'' it doesn't heal it, it doesn't provide any tips and tricks to avoid it in the future. 

I mean I've been getting lag on my old server where only 3-4 people play...and when I say lag, it's not the usual ''savetime hook up'' but big long freezes. I know very well that my server is not affected by turrets issues...so, yeah, kinda looking forward in a few weeks to see that this bandaid glue got dried up and the bandaid fell off the wound.

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2 hours ago, Critter said:

It's much more enjoyable to play unnoficials overall. The ark community needs to do WC a favor and just move over to unnoficials. It will Save WC overhead from monthly server costs which im assuming they'd invest in other areas, free up their time so they can spend it on other time costly chores/tasks, etc, etc.

Ive honestly met a few individuals who successfully lasted a few months admining their own private servers with populations near max. Not only did they technically employ friends to handle issues and rule breaking in game, but turned a decent profit for themselves via donations and in game pay to win scenarios (not to harshly pay to win) to where they could pay for their dedi and probably pay off their credit card, like.. 

I'm appalled more haven't hopped on this train or why the unnoficial community hasn't really stayed faithful to such servers as to promote these types of servers. 

To a certain extent I think you're right here. I love what Officials could have been, but the dollars and cents don't workout. How can they sustain recurring costs for a game (servers) without recurring revenue?

The biggest problem is that many (I'd hazard to say most) people who insist that Officials are the only way to go do so at least in part because they last longer than a few months. I mean some of those folks who held on with Legacy have had some of the same blue prints, dinos, and breeding lines for YEARS. Even playing solo PvP I've gone longer without getting wiped than most unofficials last with a healthy population.

Unofficial server/cluster owners/admins are in a tough spot. By far these easiest way to keep player base high is to wipe every couple months, and aside from that the abuse that these folks take on average is truly disgusting... people whine, complain and name call constantly to someone who is shelling out money and lot of time FOR OTHERS to have a better gaming experience. This may be in part what you're getting at, but I would love to see a large unofficial cluster run like a business. All players pay a monthly membership fee that pays for the servers, true admin support, and professional moderators. No (cluster) wipes outside of catastrophic events, rates similar to vanilla (if not the exact same), possibly light settings changes or modding, essentially give players a better "official" experience. If the popularity expands and things get crowded, add more servers, if they popularity dies off, kill servers but give people plenty of warning and time to transfer.

Relating this back to the topic at hand. If WCs intention is actually to unbalance there game so badly as to drive people to unofficial, that's terrible. While this change can be undone for unofficials, in doing so that undoes any performance gain given by the change. If the "fix" for lag is something that most unofficials are going to undo, and WC wants most people playing unofficials, its still a poor use of time. It gets even more complicated as they roll out a huge number of adjustments to balance this change.

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1 minute ago, Sphere said:

I wonder what it would be like if the server allowed Nvidia CUDA processing for world physics. I could then allocate a GPU per PvP server, and none of this would be even a problem. 1000+ turrets shooting, no problem.

CUDA comes with a huge drawback though on data transfer between card and CPU.
Sure, it has over 68000 cores on some cards, but there's a bottleneck to keep in mind as well when transferring data over the south-bridge.
Still, it might be able to help in certain situations.

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3 minutes ago, Olivar said:

CUDA comes with a huge drawback though on data transfer between card and CPU.
Sure, it has over 68000 cores on some cards, but there's a bottleneck to keep in mind as well when transferring data over the south-bridge.
Still, it might be able to help in certain situations.

This is a situation where 68000 cores can do it. Give the GPU a pile of math problems, and the CPU is happy. :)

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Just now, Sphere said:

This is a situation where 68000 cores can do it. Give the GPU a pile of math problems, and the CPU is happy. :)

Except that these are synchronous calls, and on the amount needed for ark, you're looking at 300x slowdown overhead due Kernel call overhead, which is still a rampant problem.
Not saying you can't get it to work, but you're going to need some major code optimization for this to get the benefits.

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On 11/18/2017 at 10:13 AM, Drinkinthepink said:

First of all, I was on board with the flier nerf and before it happened I said fliers need to be nerfed... That made sense and was a good change... This turret change is terrible, PVE servers with no turrets lag just as hard sitting at 255ping.... This change will not eliminate ping, it might drop it from 255 down to 240 or 220 but it will not fix it.... This is just a "get rid of big bases" move and use "lag" as an excuse.... they are trying to change the game meta and using the lag as a scapegoat.

I honestly miss being able to place any sort of plant/auto turret on Brontos. No point in building a base on something that can't be defended while offline :/ 

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hello, this is concerning the 100 turret limit, this update is gonna kill this game. This is coming from a players pov. A lot of people in the tribe arent happy at all about this. Even if there is more ammo capacity and damage, it will be so much easier to split the damage with the broken stegos and brontos or what ever. With only 100 turrets you cant really do much at all. you cant properly defend your base especially when you want to have internal turrets. Only thing you can really do is spam spikes and metal dino gates but these mega tribe will be able to wipe anyone and there will be much more offline raids. It will be too easy for someone to offline raid when they are only going against 100 turrets and there can be at the most 25 on each wall including the plant x which doesnt really do anything other than slow the dinos down a little. Even if a base was in a cave with a 100 turret, turret wall it would still be easy as hell breaking in with only a couple bullet soakers. This would be pushing people to join these mega tribes so they dont get wiped every night due to lack of defense

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Current Gameplay

Enemy turret counts are being included in the total turret count for a particular area's density.  If the 100 turret limit within the area specified by devs goes into effect, then enemies will be able to turn off turrets by either A) driving a boat with turrets up to a base or B) placing a foundation->turret within 34 foundations of your turrets.  

The build limit is 20 foundations, the turret range proposed is 34 foundations.  Enemies could easily turn your turrets off if the change as implemented were to have "Flip switched".  

Potential Fixes and the rub therein....

If enemy turrets are not counted in the total people will be able to create "no fly zones" with multiple "ally/enemy" turret zones and your back to your no more than 100 turrets per 34 foundations

Or 

you cap the number of turrets on a server/tribe and what will end up happening is every alpha tribe will drive anyone off theirs servers and control both turret and structure cap counts as letting an ally control anything would not make much sense leading to .....dead pvp servers with exception of mega's fighting each other 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, CrackerJackx13 said:

Do you Agree with the Turret Nerf? What are your Thoughts?

As a PvEr its not really my place to say. Assumming its balanced right I dont see much changing but thats assuming things are balanced correctly and could be beneficial even, assuming its done right. E.g less turrets needed to defend a base lets say. Lots of assumptions here.

But saying that while it didnt worry me initially its starting to hit me that things might change to make it balanced in PvP and as a result have a knock on detrimental effect onto PvE or other unofficial servers etc etc. For example nerfing the vegy cakes.

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The devs need to realize that this turret nerf is gonna be the death of ark. just look at the youtube videos and actually listen to the players. They know what is better because we actually play the game. yall have not for the longest time. you can wipe anyone now with only 100 turrets. The lag is only gonna get worse too because people are gonna start spamming walls, pillars and spikes everywhere for long distances around theirs bases and that isnt gonna make anything better

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2 minutes ago, ericthegreat343 said:

The devs need to realize that this turret nerf is gonna be the death of ark. just look at the youtube videos and actually listen to the players. They know what is better because we actually play the game. yall have not for the longest time. you can wipe anyone now with only 100 turrets. The lag is only gonna get worse too because people are gonna start spamming walls, pillars and spikes everywhere for long distances around theirs bases and that isnt gonna make anything better

That's pretty flawed logic, like saying a dentist doesn't know squat about fixing your teeth because you've been using yours your whole life.

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4 minutes ago, ericthegreat343 said:

The devs need to realize that this turret nerf is gonna be the death of ark. just look at the youtube videos and actually listen to the players. They know what is better because we actually play the game. yall have not for the longest time. you can wipe anyone now with only 100 turrets. The lag is only gonna get worse too because people are gonna start spamming walls, pillars and spikes everywhere for long distances around theirs bases and that isnt gonna make anything better

The death of Ark Official PvP maybe with the emphasis on maybe. Certainly not the death of Ark. Lets not exaggerate here.

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