Ragnarok Boss Arena w/Sloths?

[Toqs]

I was wondering if anyone had some input. My tribe is thinking about attempted a gamma boss arena on rag using mainly megatheriums. I know the preference is rex's but we have a 120.7 megatherium bp that we can craft with 1000 skill. We would bring 18 megatheriums with 50 points in health and dmg along with a daedon and yuty. Also we would have 3 people equipped with compound bows from a bp of 250 dmg + 1000 crafting skill. Im thinking we can get more sloths circled around bosses than with rexs. All sloths would have 15k-20k hp going in. This is on gamma difficulty. Any suggestions? 

[Brayn]

You may get to take down one of the two bosses, but sloths have extremely low base damage.  Like in the 30s.  The only thing that makes them work on Broodmother is the berserker.  If you were going with sloths, I'd recommend having 1 or two of your guys each use a sloth to keep agro and kite the bosses around while the rest of your crew shoots guns etc.  Your sloths are essentially meat shields that do barely any damage to those bosses.

Manticore attacks do a LOT of torpor too.  Not sure what the torpor is on a max tame mega, but I know it's ridiculously high on a rex.  Dragon does % based damage, so all the HP and armor you have is meaningless against that boss.  It does do a regular attack, but no one ever complains about that attack being too strong.  It's the flames.

[Toqs]

7 minutes ago, Brayn said:

You may get to take down one of the two bosses, but sloths have extremely low base damage.  Like in the 30s.  The only thing that makes them work on Broodmother is the berserker.  If you were going with sloths, I'd recommend having 1 or two of your guys each use a sloth to keep agro and kite the bosses around while the rest of your crew shoots guns etc.  Your sloths are essentially meat shields that do barely any damage to those bosses.

Manticore attacks do a LOT of torpor too.  Not sure what the torpor is on a max tame mega, but I know it's ridiculously high on a rex.  Dragon does % based damage, so all the HP and armor you have is meaningless against that boss.  It does do a regular attack, but no one ever complains about that attack being too strong.  It's the flames.

But what about the veggie cake use on megatheriums? Healing instantly 15% of total health when going below 85%. Wouldn't this make the dragon %attack useless?

[Brayn]

Megatherium are omnivores.  Do veggie cakes work on them?  Even if they did, you're still just a meat shield that does no damage.  As far as I know there's no bugs in the arenas to get the megas to berserk, so their damage is nominal.  To be clear, I think your megas would survive long enough for you to kill the boss with guns, just not all in a clump.  If you clump them up they're all going to die well before you kill dragon.  If you use 1 or 2 at a time to hold agro and cycle them out when they get hurt, you'll have a much easier time.

[Toqs]

3 minutes ago, Brayn said:

Megatherium are omnivores.  Do veggie cakes work on them?  Even if they did, you're still just a meat shield that does no damage.  As far as I know there's no bugs in the arenas to get the megas to berserk, so their damage is nominal.  To be clear, I think your megas would survive long enough for you to kill the boss with guns, just not all in a clump.  If you clump them up they're all going to die well before you kill dragon.  If you use 1 or 2 at a time to hold agro and cycle them out when they get hurt, you'll have a much easier time.

I'm just thinking if the veggie cakes work along with sloths having similar torpor as rexs and 150 armor saddles on that they can pretty much just slowly kill everything since they won't be taking any damage. It'll be slow though 

[Brayn]

1 hour ago, Toqs said:

I'm just thinking if the veggie cakes work along with sloths having similar torpor as rexs and 150 armor saddles on that they can pretty much just slowly kill everything since they won't be taking any damage. It'll be slow though 

Dragon flame attack does 20 or 25% true damage.  It cannot be resisted or mitigated.  It will hit faster than cakes can keep up.

[Toqs]

18 minutes ago, Brayn said:

Dragon flame attack does 20 or 25% true damage.  It cannot be resisted or mitigated.  It will hit faster than cakes can keep up.

Does the dragon tend to use burn ability on same dino more than twice a min?

[Thorium]

Dont use megatheriums. If you want to use something else than rexes go with therizinos or megalosaurus.

Megatheriums are only good for the broodmother.

[Toqs]

I tested on single player the veggie cake idea. Only works for herbivore not omnivore. Guessing the only way this would work would be if the megatheriums could kill the dragon before daeodons run out of food. 

[Toqs]

So I decided to risk it for the biscuits and soloed it. I went in with 17 high stat sloths pumped to 15k hp rest dmg along with 3 daeodons. The sloths melted the manticore in a matter of a minute without taking damage. Saved all daeodons healing for dragon. Compound bow damage does wonders 

 

I'm guessing this worked fairly well because you can get more sloths around the manticore/dragon than rex's 

[Frogspoison]

On 11/1/2017 at 11:24 PM, Toqs said:

So I decided to risk it for the biscuits and soloed it. I went in with 17 high stat sloths pumped to 15k hp rest dmg along with 3 daeodons. The sloths melted the manticore in a matter of a minute without taking damage. Saved all daeodons healing for dragon. Compound bow damage does wonders 

 

I'm guessing this worked fairly well because you can get more sloths around the manticore/dragon than rex's 

You could have gotten even more Therizino's around the bosses then Rexes too. They would do double the damage of the Rex at that, and close to 4x the damage of a Sloth, given the absolute lack of bugs in that arena. Or Megalosaurs if you start exactly at night.

Therizinos also take 50% reduced damage from fire, AND can eat sweet veggie cakes.

Finally, Therizinos have HIGH torpor, and fast Torpor drop.

Now, having an ascendent saddle DOES help, a LOT for that. However, it doesn't help for the fire damage from the Dragon. Just pray and hope you get a good Therizino saddle sometime?

 

Now, in terms of taming, its a bit different.

 

Megatherium - Can tame using Honey OR Raw Mutton. ~1 hour 30 minute tame time during normal periods. Can be picekd up with a Wyvern/Quetz. Main issue is finding a good, high lvl one.

Therizino - Tame via Kibble, or horribly through Berries/Veggies. ~1 hour tame time with Kibble during 1x. Tricky finding one, cannot be picked up, move through dino gates.

Rex - 2 hour tame via Raw Mutton, shorter via Kibble. Easy to find.

Breeding time for all 3 is similar.

[ManGorilla]

5 hours ago, Frogspoison said:

You could have gotten even more Therizino's around the bosses then Rexes too. They would do double the damage of the Rex at that, and close to 4x the damage of a Sloth, given the absolute lack of bugs in that arena. Or Megalosaurs if you start exactly at night.

Therizinos also take 50% reduced damage from fire, AND can eat sweet veggie cakes.

Finally, Therizinos have HIGH torpor, and fast Torpor drop.

Now, having an ascendent saddle DOES help, a LOT for that. However, it doesn't help for the fire damage from the Dragon. Just pray and hope you get a good Therizino saddle sometime?

 

Now, in terms of taming, its a bit different.

 

Megatherium - Can tame using Honey OR Raw Mutton. ~1 hour 30 minute tame time during normal periods. Can be picekd up with a Wyvern/Quetz. Main issue is finding a good, high lvl one.

Therizino - Tame via Kibble, or horribly through Berries/Veggies. ~1 hour tame time with Kibble during 1x. Tricky finding one, cannot be picked up, move through dino gates.

Rex - 2 hour tame via Raw Mutton, shorter via Kibble. Easy to find.

Breeding time for all 3 is similar.

I have seen a lot of talk about this but has anyone tested this out?
I am currently in a position to start doing some boss battles with some Rexes but If this is more effective, I would like to attempt to breed some Therizinos for Boss Farming.

I haven't done any 150 perfect Tames but according to Dododex, you would need a very exceptional tame with over 54 points in Health to get over 10k Life. Even the points per level after tame seem low. Veggie Cakes give 500 instant health and 15% over 10 seconds. I haven't tested out the auto trigger for the Cakes but if you get them to atleast all 10k, you will need an amazing saddle as the Veggie Cakes have a 10 second CD from what I understand and with only 150 health per second, Damage reduction needs to be pretty high as the life pool is lower then a Trex.  On the Other hand, the base damage of a Rex is 50 while the Therizino is 40 x2 as it attacks twice. That is 60% more base damage than the Rex.

However the Rex has a large AOE cone they may be preferred for the Spider. I would love to hear experiences on this.

[Frogspoison]

24 minutes ago, ManGorilla said:

I have seen a lot of talk about this but has anyone tested this out?
I am currently in a position to start doing some boss battles with some Rexes but If this is more effective, I would like to attempt to breed some Therizinos for Boss Farming.

I haven't done any 150 perfect Tames but according to Dododex, you would need a very exceptional tame with over 54 points in Health to get over 10k Life. Even the points per level after tame seem low. Veggie Cakes give 500 instant health and 15% over 10 seconds. I haven't tested out the auto trigger for the Cakes but if you get them to atleast all 10k, you will need an amazing saddle as the Veggie Cakes have a 10 second CD from what I understand and with only 150 health per second, Damage reduction needs to be pretty high as the life pool is lower then a Trex.  On the Other hand, the base damage of a Rex is 50 while the Therizino is 40 x2 as it attacks twice. That is 60% more base damage than the Rex.

However the Rex has a large AOE cone they may be preferred for the Spider. I would love to hear experiences on this.

 

Therizino's have 21% less health and health scaling then a Rex, BUT, they take half damage from the Dragons Fire, so a Therizino's TTL is pretty much straight-up better then what you have on a Rex for the Dragon fight.

 

This is assuming you have equivalent saddles. Therizino saddles are on the same loot table as the Rex saddles, so your chances of having a good Rex saddle BP are the same as having a good Therizino saddle BP.

 

In addition, since a Therizino DOES eat Veggie Cakes, thats a significant amount of additional health through the fight, whereas the Rex will barely regen 30 HP over 30 seconds through meat, unless you completely starved the rexes before doing a boss fight, which is much more time consuming then just giving Herbis cakes.

 

Finally, Therizino's are small, and can more easily hit the Dragon when its landed, on top of doing significantly more damage to the Dragon when its grounded.

Its more of a question of which good saddle BP do you have - Therizino or Rex. Both can do the boss fight.

 

For the Spider boss, Rexes AND Therizinos work, but Megatheriums are the absolute best - Therizino's do 104 damage per Claw attack (52 per hit baseline, not 40). Megatheriums do 144 damage to Insects when they have the bug rage buff per hit and can slam the ground for a bit more damage in a large AOE around them. Whats more, they take 50% reduced damage when the Bug Rage buff is up, making them easily the superior choice.

 

For the Monkey Boss, its an even split between Therizino and Rex. Therizino has higher DPS, but is squishier. Rex has lower DPS, but a higher attack radius to kill trash, as well as higher health pool to tank the boss.

 

For Manticore on Scorched Earth, note that you can bring in Wyverns. While Wyverns are FAR squishier then Rexes, they can easily deal with the Manticore in the air, AND avoid Aggroing the many Rock Golems and Deathworms in the arena. Thus, Wyverns are easily the best choice for Scorched Earth boss fight.

On the Center, Megatheriums are the best option due to the presence of the spider. Kill spiders to get the bug buff, then kill the monkey ASAP, then clean up the spider boss.

 

[ManGorilla]

22 hours ago, Frogspoison said:

 

Therizino's have 21% less health and health scaling then a Rex, BUT, they take half damage from the Dragons Fire, so a Therizino's TTL is pretty much straight-up better then what you have on a Rex for the Dragon fight.

 

This is assuming you have equivalent saddles. Therizino saddles are on the same loot table as the Rex saddles, so your chances of having a good Rex saddle BP are the same as having a good Therizino saddle BP.

 

In addition, since a Therizino DOES eat Veggie Cakes, thats a significant amount of additional health through the fight, whereas the Rex will barely regen 30 HP over 30 seconds through meat, unless you completely starved the rexes before doing a boss fight, which is much more time consuming then just giving Herbis cakes.

 

Finally, Therizino's are small, and can more easily hit the Dragon when its landed, on top of doing significantly more damage to the Dragon when its grounded.

Its more of a question of which good saddle BP do you have - Therizino or Rex. Both can do the boss fight.

 

For the Spider boss, Rexes AND Therizinos work, but Megatheriums are the absolute best - Therizino's do 104 damage per Claw attack (52 per hit baseline, not 40). Megatheriums do 144 damage to Insects when they have the bug rage buff per hit and can slam the ground for a bit more damage in a large AOE around them. Whats more, they take 50% reduced damage when the Bug Rage buff is up, making them easily the superior choice.

 

For the Monkey Boss, its an even split between Therizino and Rex. Therizino has higher DPS, but is squishier. Rex has lower DPS, but a higher attack radius to kill trash, as well as higher health pool to tank the boss.

 

For Manticore on Scorched Earth, note that you can bring in Wyverns. While Wyverns are FAR squishier then Rexes, they can easily deal with the Manticore in the air, AND avoid Aggroing the many Rock Golems and Deathworms in the arena. Thus, Wyverns are easily the best choice for Scorched Earth boss fight.

On the Center, Megatheriums are the best option due to the presence of the spider. Kill spiders to get the bug buff, then kill the monkey ASAP, then clean up the spider boss.

 

Super Helpful Information. Thanks for breaking this all down for me.

[Wazzamaniac]

23 hours ago, Frogspoison said:

 

 

For Manticore on Scorched Earth, note that you can bring in Wyverns. While Wyverns are FAR squishier then Rexes, they can easily deal with the Manticore in the air, AND avoid Aggroing the many Rock Golems and Deathworms in the arena. Thus, Wyverns are easily the best choice for Scorched Earth boss fight.

 

Wouldn't you have to worry about the manticore knocking out your wyverns? They have low torpor and no saddle.

We use rexes for the fight, generally it lands long enough to kill it. We still get 2-4 of them knocked out, so wyverns would be worse

[rororoxor]

On 11/8/2017 at 12:03 PM, Frogspoison said:

For Manticore on Scorched Earth, note that you can bring in Wyverns. While Wyverns are FAR squishier then Rexes, they can easily deal with the Manticore in the air, AND avoid Aggroing the many Rock Golems and Deathworms in the arena. Thus, Wyverns are easily the best choice for Scorched Earth boss fight.

 

I know that wyverns tend to damage one another with their breath attack. Is it OK to bring only one type of wyvern (e.g. lightning) and enable breath attacks? Will they hurt each other? Have you done this battle w/ wyverns before?

[Wazzamaniac]

1 hour ago, rororoxor said:

I know that wyverns tend to damage one another with their breath attack. Is it OK to bring only one type of wyvern (e.g. lightning) and enable breath attacks? Will they hurt each other? Have you done this battle w/ wyverns before?

Wyverns with the same element do not hurt each other.

In fact, tamed wyverns do not take breath damage from wild wyvs of the same type either, which is why riding a fire wyvern make it very easy to kill an alpha fire.

[Frogspoison]

3 hours ago, Wazzamaniac said:

Wouldn't you have to worry about the manticore knocking out your wyverns? They have low torpor and no saddle.

We use rexes for the fight, generally it lands long enough to kill it. We still get 2-4 of them knocked out, so wyverns would be worse

 

In terms of Torpor, Wyverns drop Torpor at an EXTREMELY rapid pace, whereas Rexes drop it slowly. Given that the Manticore does its torpor damage in large bursts (Large initial burst, then another other 5 seconds) rather then steadily over time like the Broodmother (Steady increasing rate over the entire fight), Wyvern's don't really have to worry about Torpor, since they gain 600, and then drop it off over the next 10 seconds, whereas a Rex would gain 600, and take almost 2 minutes to drop it all off. Wyverns drop Torpor at like 40-50/second. Rexes drop it ~3 per second.

 

IF you could bring Wyverns into the Broodmother fight, I honestly would recommend Rexes over them, as Rexes, with their significantly higher torpor (2-3x as much) would be able to tank FAR more Torpor then the Wyverns.

 

And yes, you WILL want all unridden wyverns to be of the same type. I highly recommend Lightning wyverns over the other 3 types.

 

Using Wyverns rather then Rexes allows you to ignore the Rock Elementals and Death Worms on the ground. You just need to have a passive Yuty yelling at everyone, and a rider on a Daedon so your Wyverns can get healed back up.

 

[TheDonn]

Everyone:  Therizinos do not hit for base damage x2.  This would be absurd.  They swing their claws two times, for one 52 base damage hit.  They do not hit for 104 per click of the button.  If they did 104 base dmg, rexs would be useless.  The time in between attacks of an unridden Theri when compared to a Rex is shorter, and this and only this is why they do more DPS.  They do 52 base dmg, a Rex does 62 at a slower attack speed.

ALSO:  Unridden Sloths prefer using the Slam attack, which has a base dmg of 49.  It is in NO WAY far inferior to Therizinos.  The claw and bite attacks hit for 32, this is true.  But unridden Sloths use the Slam attack. 

There is a reason why you all have all these "facts" about how it would never work, yet somehow Toqs went in and melted the Rag bosses.  Sloths are powerful, even outside of Broodmother.

[TheDonn]

@Frogspoison   @ManGorilla  @Toqs

OK:  So after a bit of testing on singleplayer, where you can spawn in dinos at will, I spawned in a lvl 1 rex and theri.  I spawned saddles for them, and forcetamed both.  I then spawned in a training dummy.  The theri and the rex are both 175% melee damage, so if it is true that the theri has 104 base dmg, it will either show dmg for each swing (left and right) or its single number will be ~60% higher than a rexs.

This is not an opinion, this is backed up with testing.  The theri has a single dmg number of 1051 on a dummy.  One number, not a number for the left and the right swings.  Only one.

The rex has one dmg number too.  That number is 1253, or -HIGHER- than a theri.

MATH TIME:  1253 divided by 62 (rexs base dmg) gives 20.2096774, an indication of the dmg multiplier applied to the training dummy.

Theri base dmg is 52.  See where we are going with this, class?  52 times 20.2096774 is 1051.

Meaning, irrefutably, therizinosaurus does NOT hit for 52 with each swing, left and right, of its attack, it deals 52 base dmg ONE TIME.

After spawning in a lvl 1 megatherium with 175% melee dmg too, and a saddle, it hit the training dummy for 990 dmg.

Base sloth slam-attack dmg is 49, which 20.2096774 times 49 is, you guessed it:  990.

EDIT:  It is highly worth noting to stem this topic from rising as a counter-argument to this scientific, data-backed analysis:  When harvesting from bodies and trees, EACH SWING HITS the tree or body.  Left and right are distinct hits to dead bodies and trees.  This is not the case to living dinos or bosses, as evidenced by any training dummy test.

[Frogspoison]

1 hour ago, TheDonn said:

@Frogspoison   @ManGorilla  @Toqs

OK:  So after a bit of testing on singleplayer, where you can spawn in dinos at will, I spawned in a lvl 1 rex and theri.  I spawned saddles for them, and forcetamed both.  I then spawned in a training dummy.  The theri and the rex are both 175% melee damage, so if it is true that the theri has 104 base dmg, it will either show dmg for each swing (left and right) or its single number will be ~60% higher than a rexs.

This is not an opinion, this is backed up with testing.  The theri has a single dmg number of 1051 on a dummy.  One number, not a number for the left and the right swings.  Only one.

The rex has one dmg number too.  That number is 1253, or -HIGHER- than a theri.

MATH TIME:  1253 divided by 62 (rexs base dmg) gives 20.2096774, an indication of the dmg multiplier applied to the training dummy.

Theri base dmg is 52.  See where we are going with this, class?  52 times 20.2096774 is 1051.

Meaning, irrefutably, therizinosaurus does NOT hit for 52 with each swing, left and right, of its attack, it deals 52 base dmg ONE TIME.

After spawning in a lvl 1 megatherium with 175% melee dmg too, and a saddle, it hit the training dummy for 990 dmg.

Base sloth slam-attack dmg is 49, which 20.2096774 times 49 is, you guessed it:  990.

EDIT:  It is highly worth noting to stem this topic from rising as a counter-argument to this scientific, data-backed analysis:  When harvesting from bodies and trees, EACH SWING HITS the tree or body.  Left and right are distinct hits to dead bodies and trees.  This is not the case to living dinos or bosses, as evidenced by any training dummy test.

 

Well, damn. Thats good to know.

 

So Therizinos will do less damage then Rexes

[dslick]

Therizino hits once correct. We see two swings but damage is registered once.

Now factor in attack speed and you will see therizino has slightly higher DPS. 

[TheDonn]

3 hours ago, dslick said:

Therizino hits once correct. We see two swings but damage is registered once.

Now factor in attack speed and you will see therizino has slightly higher DPS. 

Which if you read my post, is exactly what I said.   

 

5 hours ago, Frogspoison said:

 

Well, damn. Thats good to know.

 

So Therizinos will do less damage then Rexes

Unmanned Theris are still badass, good HP, same time to raise as Rexs, and as you mentioned the loot table that gives Rex saddle will give Theri saddles...  So they are well worth the work if you have a stout Theri breed.