Server Dino Cap Discussion

[Midnight_]

Holy Moly! the actual dino cap is 9500?!?!?!?! So since launch on all the rag servers there was an average of 154 dinos tamed/bred every day!?!?! Till they capped around 2 months in. 9500/62=153.225...

[Vrallox]

All right. Let's get this out of the way...

 

I took these definitions from Wikipedia since gaming terms are hard to find in the more established resources and Wikipedia is the least disreputable source of the ones with the available definitions.

Griefer: "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways."

"Kiting" or "training" from the same article as 'griefer': "Luring many monsters or a big one to chase the griefer, before moving to where other players are. The line of monsters in pursuit looks like a train, and hence this is sometimes called "training" or "aggroing"."

Player versus Environment (PvE): "a term used in online games, particularly MMORPGs, CORPGs, MUDs, and other online role-playing video games, to refer to fighting computer-controlled enemies—in contrast to PvP (player versus player)."

 

So by the very definitions of PvE, griefing, and kiting we know that it is not acceptable behavior for PvE. Since it involves a player opponent (in PvE), defined therefore as a griefer, kiting NPCs, known as dinosaurs in this case, to an intended victim. Ranger1 may be correct in that it is not against Wildcard's rules but if that's the case then Wildcard's ideas of what constitutes griefing and PvE are clearly wrong and their rules are beyond questionable in regards to them. At least according to the very definitions of those words.

In summary, kiting animals on PvE servers to people's bases with the intent to kill other people's animals in order to alleviate issues resulting from reaching the server tame cap is NOT acceptable. It may be allowed by the rules but, as has just been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is NOT something that should actually be done.

[flamron]

5 hours ago, DomeBlue said:

@flamronalmost missed your post so I apologise for only replying now. I'm aware of when the cap hit on the new servers but it's not the first time cap has struck. I don't know how many were affected by cap on the legacy servers when they were ordinary official but I can say with certainty that there are survivors from before the release who are no strangers to cap. In fact cap has made an appearance throughout arks lifetime. So perhaps this time it's bigger than before and it's lasted longer. The bigger the problem the more steps needed to be taken. Most of you just lack patience. 

I also suggest you read my post to midnight on kibble ect. No timeline doesn't mean it won't happen. After all it was confirmed. 

Doubling the timer on imprints probably doesn’t fix anything. So I’d file this new update under “a swing and a miss”. 

[TheDonn]

4 hours ago, Ranger1 said:

For clarification griefing in online game play is considered to be when one player or group of players singles out an individual for repeated attacks beyond the scope of regular competitive game play... and follows them wherever they go (from server to server in most cases) with the explicit purpose of driving them from the game.  Having a dino kited to your base on occasion doesn't fall into anything remotely resembling this.

WC's stance on dino-kiting has been quite clear from day one.  Obviously you don't like it, but that's not going to change their stance.  That being, if you choose to play on official PVE servers dino-kiting is ABSOLUTELY OK, and is not considered griefing in any way.  If you personally consider it griefing that is perfectly fine, you have other options readily available where you can play by your own set of rules.

It is just not written in the rules that it is forbidden.  That is different.  That is not someone getting wrecked by the environment in our Player-versus-Environment game.  That is basically straight out of Vrallox's supplied definition of what griefing is.  Your definition is way way too specific...  Why don't you add into it, "... and shoots them with (only) a longneck rifle while holding the voice-channel open and playing an annoying song like I'm All Out Of Love by Air Supply?" 

I mean, I'm being cheeky obviously but the definition of griefing has nothing to do with servers and making someone quit.  It has to do with using aspects of the game in unintended ways to anger or irritate other players.  If you are in your base and all is well, and walk outside to a rock elemental that was dragged half-way across the map to kill your dinos and damage your home, that is griefing, not using the environment to create "happy byproducts" like relaxed tamecaps.  It is not intended or ever feasible that a neutral Titanosaur treks from Winter's Mouth all the way to the Black River north of the Redwoods and begins stomping a base out of existence.  It is not intended (though slightly more feasible) that a Giga would do the same, or a Rock Elemental would wander from the volcano into the snow and begin killing dinos on Ragnarok.

And we had guys on legacy that got in dutch for griefing.  This was also long after day one of ARK.

ALSO:  If it is so OK, then was Offline Raid Protection rolled out because WildCard are big big fans of the color blue and wanted everyone to see it when they looked at non-tribe dinos and bases in PvE?  Not to protect people from being griefed while offline and having all their things raided (which is a PvP term that has no place in what a PvE server is).

 

4 hours ago, Vrallox said:

In summary, kiting animals on PvE servers to people's bases with the intent to kill other people's animals in order to alleviate issues resulting from reaching the server tame cap is NOT acceptable. It may be allowed by the rules but, as has just been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, it is NOT something that should actually be done.

Here's the thing though:  People need to stop saying its allowed. 

Nothing says that it is allowed. People are just taking advantage of inaction on WildCard's part to mean that it is.

[Joebl0w13]

Just now, TheDonn said:

It is just not written in the rules that it is forbidden.  That is different.  That is not someone getting wrecked by the environment in our Player-versus-Environment game.  That is basically straight out of Vrallox's supplied definition of what griefing is.  Your definition is way way too specific...  Why don't you add into it, "... and shoots them with (only) a longneck rifle while holding the voice-channel open and playing an annoying song like I'm All Out Of Love by Air Supply?" 

I mean, I'm being cheeky obviously but the definition of griefing has nothing to do with servers and making someone quit.  It has to do with using aspects of the game in unintended ways to anger or irritate other players.  If you are in your base and all is well, and walk outside to a rock elemental that was dragged half-way across the map to kill your dinos and damage your home, that is griefing, not using the environment to create "happy byproducts" like relaxed tamecaps.  It is not intended or ever feasible that a neutral Titanosaur treks from Winter's Mouth all the way to the Black River north of the Redwoods and begins stomping a base out of existence.  It is not intended (though slightly more feasible) that a Giga would do the same, or a Rock Elemental would wander from the volcano into the snow and begin killing dinos on Ragnarok.

And we had guys on legacy that got in dutch for griefing.  This was also long after day one of ARK.

ALSO:  If it is so OK, then was Offline Raid Protection rolled out because WildCard are big big fans of the color blue and wanted everyone to see it when they looked at non-tribe dinos and bases in PvE?  Not to protect people from being griefed while offline and having all their things raided (which is a PvP term that has no place in what a PvE server is).

 

Here's the thing though:  People need to stop saying its allowed. 

Nothing says that it is allowed. People are just taking advantage of inaction on WildCard's part to mean that it is.

Once again. Kiting dinos on a PVE server is perfectly allowed. 

[Joebl0w13]

Just now, TheDonn said:

I'm done.  I get that you community mods are sticking together on this.

The only thing I'm doing is making it perfectly clear that kiting dinos is perfectly fine despite anyone's opinion on the matter.

[TheDonn]

Just now, Joebl0w13 said:

The only thing I'm doing is making it perfectly clear that kiting dinos is perfectly fine despite anyone's opinion on the matter.

You are a volunteer moderator, not a WildCard policy writer though.

[Joebl0w13]

Just now, TheDonn said:

You are a volunteer moderator, not a WildCard policy writer though.

I didn't write the policy. I'm simply telling you what it is.

[invincibleqc]

1 minute ago, TheDonn said:

You are a volunteer moderator, not a WildCard policy writer though.

Let me quote you their official answer then:

Quote

I am sorry to hear that you are having an issue with the players luring dinos into player bases. As a fellow survivor, I know how heartbreaking this can be and how much time, effort, and love goes into each base and tame. Unfortunately, after further review, the development team has decided that this mechanic in game is working as intended.

...

Being a mature rated, survival game where dinos can wander into a base at any time, we advise players to build taller reinforced walls in order to prevent this from happening. Even the strongest of dinos can not break through a metal wall!

 

 

[Vrallox]

17 minutes ago, TheDonn said:

Here's the thing though:  People need to stop saying its allowed. 

Nothing says that it is allowed. People are just taking advantage of inaction on WildCard's part to mean that it is.

If it's not explicitly forbidden then it is allowed. Sure kiting in PvE is the very definition of ACTUAL griefing, as I've already posted, but according to Wildcard's warped sense of fair play it isn't their made up version of griefing and so isn't against the rules.

[Ranger1]

5 hours ago, Vrallox said:

Griefer: "A griefer is a player in a multiplayer video game who deliberately irritates and angers other players within the game, using aspects of the game in unintended ways."

Heya Vrallox! 

In all honesty, I can't think of a single game I've ever played that used that generic a description for griefing.  Primarily because it is so open ended that almost any creative game play or tactic might easily fall into it.  Almost always there is a strong persecution aspect to it as defined by an actual game company, to avoid players that "never thought of doing it that way" from turning in a multitude of pointless tickets when outfoxed.  That particular definition is actually closer to the definition of an exploit than actual griefing.

Now if someone followed a player from server to server in an attempt to force them to quit the game, then you would have a situation that most game companies would call greifing and take appropriate action to stop.

 

5 hours ago, Vrallox said:

"Kiting" or "training" from the same article as 'griefer': "Luring many monsters or a big one to chase the griefer, before moving to where other players are. The line of monsters in pursuit looks like a train, and hence this is sometimes called "training" or "aggroing"."

This one is spot on, although the term "kiting" is far more often associated with drawing your opponent after you in such a way as to keep him in inside your weapons kill zone while you remain outside of his.  Of course, that definition is not often as relevant to ARK as the one you selected.

 

5 hours ago, Vrallox said:

Player versus Environment (PvE): "a term used in online games, particularly MMORPGs, CORPGs, MUDs, and other online role-playing video games, to refer to fighting computer-controlled enemies—in contrast to PvP (player versus player)."

Which, of course, is exactly what happens in the situation described.  A player (if present) fighting against computer controlled creatures.  Yes, those creatures were lured to a particular area, but all of the fighting is done against those creatures... not other players.

 

Obviously there are other, more concrete and practical reasons why luring something dangerous to a players base is allowed (I think you have been gracious enough to point those out before yourself.), and why that policy will likely not be changing.

[DomeBlue]

@flamronyou have me confused. I didn't say changes will be made in the next update but I will clarify. I believe it to be a possibility in future updates to come. 

EDIT: Neither did i suggest they will all happen at once... and I hope they don't. 

[ThiagoBoizao]

Can someone explain what this is?

[ThzNutz]

without more info to go on im guessing this?

 

[Hobgobblin247]

1 minute ago, ThzNutz said:

without more info to go on im guessing this?

 

Dam you moving his post lol.. but I had something similar

[ThzNutz]

@Hobgobblin247

now its merged into here so isnt nearly as funny....

wasnt me....

 

[Vrallox]

2 hours ago, Ranger1 said:

Heya Vrallox! 

In all honesty, I can't think of a single game I've ever played that used that generic a description for griefing.  Primarily because it is so open ended that almost any creative game play or tactic might easily fall into it.  Almost always there is a strong persecution aspect to it as defined by an actual game company, to avoid players that "never thought of doing it that way" from turning in a multitude of pointless tickets when outfoxed.  That particular definition is actually closer to the definition of an exploit than actual griefing.

Now if someone followed a player from server to server in an attempt to force them to quit the game, then you would have a situation that most game companies would call greifing and take appropriate action to stop.

Hellos,

I have to admit I was a little rushed in finding the definitions and each search page came up with sites I wouldn't trust. Wikipedia was just the one I found the least untrustworthy and I didn't like that definition either but it was what the site offered. Here's a better definition from a reputable site, Dictionary.com: "an online game player who intentionally spoils the game for other players"

That pretty much nails the definition of a kiter in PvE as well.

2 hours ago, Ranger1 said:

Which, of course, is exactly what happens in the situation described.  A player (if present) fighting against computer controlled creatures.  Yes, those creatures were lured to a particular area, but all of the fighting is done against those creatures... not other players.

 

Obviously there are other, more concrete and practical reasons why luring something dangerous to a players base is allowed (I think you have been gracious enough to point those out before yourself.), and why that policy will likely not be changing.

The instigating player created that situation though. The challenge wasn't brought about by the game but another person. Firing a bullet at another player could fit that description as well since "it's not the player doing damage but the bullet even though the player is solely responsible for causing the bullet to potentially cause damage to the intended victim."

Replace bullet with dino and there you have kiting.

[Jacira]

10 minutes ago, Vrallox said:

The instigating player created that situation though. The challenge wasn't brought about by the game but another person. Firing a bullet at another player could fit that description as well since "it's not the player doing damage but the bullet even though the player is solely responsible for causing the bullet to potentially cause damage to the intended victim."

Replace bullet with dino and there you have kiting.

He's right you know. You talk about "outfoxing" @Ranger1. But you forget that in PvE the term 'outfoxing' should not even be in your vocabulary. What you say holds true for any PvP mode across any game. But when it comes to PvE, every player should have the right to be safe from other players and any player that threatens that safety (via kiting or other forms of harassment) should be dealt with. Now that doesn't mean that anytime someone gets accused of greifing you guys do something about it. But if there is sufficient evidence to back the claim, then I believe it's only fair to the victim and ultimately the community if you investigate it.

[Joebl0w13]

5 minutes ago, Jacira said:

He's right you know. You talk about "outfoxing" @Ranger1. But you forget that in PvE the term 'outfoxing' should not even be in your vocabulary. What you say holds true for any PvP mode across any game. But when it comes to PvE, every player should have the right to be safe from other players and any player that threatens that safety (via kiting or other forms of harassment) should be dealt with. Now that doesn't mean that anytime someone gets accused of greifing you guys do something about it. But if there is sufficient evidence to back the claim, then I believe it's only fair to the victim and ultimately the community if you investigate it.

WCs stance has been pretty simple regarding this.

A wild dino attacking you or your things is just that, a wild dino attacking you or your things. Whether it was dropped at your doorstep by a player or not doesn't matter (says WC).

In PVE you need to prepare for a wild dino attacking you or your things.

[Vrallox]

1 minute ago, Joebl0w13 said:

WCs stance has been pretty simple regarding this.

A wild dino attacking you or your things is just that, a wild dino attacking you or your things. Whether it was dropped at your doorstep by a player or not doesn't matter (says WC).

In PVE you need to prepare for a wild dino attacking you or your things.

We know Wildcard's stance. We're pointing out how it's clearly wrong. I have no doubt they'll stick to their guns but their definition of PvE and griefing is obviously wrong. I've found no definition of PvE that allows kiting or griefing that doesn't cover kiting.

Making up their own definitions for things doesn't change the actual definitions.

Any decent, respectable person therefore cannot employ said griefing PvP tactic on a PvE server to destroy other people's animals in order to decrease the tame number and distance themselves from the tame cap. Because it's just as was said: A PvP tactic meant to grief. Wildcard can call it whatever they like. They can call it "hugs and kisses." It won't make it so.

So we obviously need to look elsewhere for player made solutions to this problem. These victims aren't trolls or griefers. They're fellow players who just want to enjoy the game like the rest of us.

[Joebl0w13]

11 minutes ago, Joebl0w13 said:

In PVE you need to prepare for a wild dino attacking you or your things.

Do this. And there won't be any issues to worry about.

[Vrallox]

27 minutes ago, Joebl0w13 said:

Do this. And there won't be any issues to worry about.

I've watched a group kite a wild giga to someone's base and then use ramps on quetzals to get it over the victim's walls. Preparing for wild dino attacks is easy. Defending against the human griefer factor is a liiiiittle bit harder.

[Jacira]

Exactly what Vrallox said.

In my personal experience I've had a player kite a titan into my base using the render range technique. This titan stomped a bunch of my dinos (that were on passive) and killed them. This is not my fault and is not a direct PvE situation.

The fact that you cannot differentiate between protecting your stuff from wild dinos attacking you and other players using exploits and griefing techniques to harass you is both disappointing and insulting.

We know Wild Card's stance on this, that still doesn't make it the right stance.

[flamron]

1 hour ago, Joebl0w13 said:

WCs stance has been pretty simple regarding this.

A wild dino attacking you or your things is just that, a wild dino attacking you or your things. Whether it was dropped at your doorstep by a player or not doesn't matter (says WC).

In PVE you need to prepare for a wild dino attacking you or your things.

When do they allow us to start picking up wild dinos then in PVE?  Just a mechanic right?

[TheDonn]

5 hours ago, Vrallox said:

We know Wildcard's stance. We're pointing out how it's clearly wrong. I have no doubt they'll stick to their guns but their definition of PvE and griefing is obviously wrong. I've found no definition of PvE that allows kiting or griefing that doesn't cover kiting.

Making up their own definitions for things doesn't change the actual definitions.

Any decent, respectable person therefore cannot employ said griefing PvP tactic on a PvE server to destroy other people's animals in order to decrease the tame number and distance themselves from the tame cap. Because it's just as was said: A PvP tactic meant to grief. Wildcard can call it whatever they like. They can call it "hugs and kisses." It won't make it so.

So we obviously need to look elsewhere for player made solutions to this problem. These victims aren't trolls or griefers. They're fellow players who just want to enjoy the game like the rest of us.

This right here.  Thank you @Vrallox.