Server Dino Cap Discussion

[HeatherJo]

8 minutes ago, Joebl0w13 said:

At some point in the game, much as in life, people have to take some personal responsibility for their actions.

It’s a game. It’s intended to be enjoyed lol. Lighten up.  Were suppose to take responsibility because were playing the game the way it was designed to be played?  Well that certainly makes sense? If anyone needs to take responsibity it certainly isn’t some 15 year old that likes otters and has 100 of them. It should obviously be wildcard who at this point has been grossly negligent and irresponsible as a company.  When can we expect them to be responsible?  Anyways this line of thinking and our discussion is adding nothing to this conversation and helps in no way.  

[Joebl0w13]

1 minute ago, HeatherJo said:

It’s a game. It’s intended to be enjoyed lol. Lighten up.  If anyone needs to take responsibity it certainly isn’t some 15 year old that likes otters. It should obviously be wildcard who at this point has been grossly negligent and irresponsible as a company.  When can we expect them to be responsible?  Anyways this line of thinking and our discussion is adding to nothing to this conversation and helps in no way.  

I'm being plenty light

The cap isn't going anywhere, it's a necessary evil due to hardware limitations.

If somebody want's to tame everything on the map and hit the cap, it's on them.

[HeatherJo]

3 minutes ago, Joebl0w13 said:

I'm being plenty light

The cap isn't going anywhere, it's a necessary evil due to hardware limitations.

If somebody want's to tame everything on the map and hit the cap, it's on them.

Of course the cap isn’t going anywhere we all realize the need for it.  So the answer plain and simple is stop taming? Not, thinking of other ways to help alleviate the limitations of it like where are all the additional servers, or  maybe lowering tribe caps,or  lowering number of tribes on servers, or getting rid of tamable Dino’s that offer no benefit to the game, or starting s Kickstarter fund to raise money for new servers ( never mind WC would only spend it on new content creation.) or implementing other ideas that many have suggested on here or at least looking into ways to help rectify the situation.  Nope, just stop taming, wow problem solved.  

Again being facetious I just don’t think the bulk of the responsibility of these issues should rest on the players shoulders.  That’s absurd. Sure people could play more responsibly but let’s be honest here most wont, they spent money for something they will do with it what they like.   I mean so many on here are already doing wildcards job by thinking and posting so mnay creative alternatives that might actually Help.  Maybe it’s time wildcard actually took some of the responsibility. 

[Joebl0w13]

2 minutes ago, HeatherJo said:

Nope, just stop taming, wow problem solved.

That's about the gist of it. The only way to keep under the cap is to tame less dinos.

[DiamondLlama]

7 minutes ago, Joebl0w13 said:

That's about the gist of it. The only way to keep under the cap is to tame less dinos.

That is very, very, very specious logic. You are talking about a community, not individuals.Individuals can be held responsible for their actions, but in this case the individual player forms part of a larger group that plays on the server.

Communities dictate their own values, so one might play on a PVE server that encourages specific dino breeding - i.e. every tribe falls into a pattern of breeding a specific creature. The dino cap doesn't severely affect this server, players can cull heards once they have breeding stock.

Other communities, such as the one I played on, emphasise large base structures and large dino populations - kibble farming, self taming and very, very individualistic play - tribes are hardly ever greater than two people in size. These communities are naturally paranoid about bringing unknown players into the fold and as tribes with more 'active hours'; begin to dominate the map players must either fall under their sway or tame their own dinos. This sort of community is severely limited by the taming cap - it favours established, older groups who have had more time in situ.

My point is that you can't say the player is to blame here - they are reacting to the community they find themselves playing on. This makes player driven action less of a determining factor.

You defend the taming cap, I get that and we stand on opposite sides of that argument, but the problem will not be solved by telling everyone who bought this game that they have to play it strictly one way. The premise of Ark is based on experimentation - how will survivors behave in a situation they are placed. Now you are telling the community that the solutions they are developing don't match your expectations so we must adjust how we play. It doesn't work that way. Wild Card must find a way to achieve the limitations that doesn't so horribly infringe on the player.

My solution? Remove official mutliplayer if you can't sustain it. Which - judging by the overflowing servers, lagging horribly and tame capping on a daily basis - you can't. Force everyone to work on single player or self maintained servers. And when you finish howling at the obscenity of that suggestion, I hope that you will realise how tame capping the servers

is exactly as obscene and unhelpful

[IamTANK]

41 minutes ago, Joebl0w13 said:

At some point in the game, much as in life, people have to take some personal responsibility for their actions.

that will never happen because "people" and limits or road blocks must be enforced by wc with in game mechanics. the general public will never limit themselves.

as a rule people are selfish and do what makes them happy reguardless of the neg effects it imposes on others.

[Joebl0w13]

2 minutes ago, IamTANK said:

that will never happen because "people" and limits or road blocks must be enforced by wc with in game mechanics. the general public will never limit themselves.

as a rule people are selfish and do what makes them happy reguardless of the neg effects it imposes on others.

You are correct.

The cap is exactly that enforcement, put in place by WC.

[Lewiatan]

24 minutes ago, Joebl0w13 said:

You are correct.

The cap is exactly that enforcement, put in place by WC.

The enforcement that does not solve the problem in long run at all. The game design caused this issue therefore it's up to WC to create a system that helps dealing with it without stopping players progress, because nothing can be tamed for days.

[Joebl0w13]

3 minutes ago, Lewiatan said:

The enforcement that does not solve the problem in long run at all. The game design caused this issue therefore it's up to WC to create a system that helps dealing with it without stopping players progress, because nothing can be tamed for days.

The cap is not a problem. It's a fact of physics. Just as you can only fit a certain number of people in a car, you can only fit a certain number of dinos on a server.

If you wanted to jam 10 people into a car built for 4, what exactly would you have the car manufacturer do to make that a reality? 

[Oli4]

1 minute ago, Joebl0w13 said:

The cap is not a problem. It's a fact of physics. Just as you can only fit a certain number of people in a car, you can only fit a certain number of dinos on a server.

If you wanted to jam 10 people into a car built for 4, what exactly would you have the car manufacturer do to make that a reality? 

Then maybe we need WC to give us more cars? We are with 10 people but WC only gives us 2 cars to ride.

[Joebl0w13]

2 minutes ago, Oli4 said:

Then maybe we need WC to give us more cars? We are with 10 people but WC only gives us 2 cars to ride.

More cars to be filled with the desire to fit 10 people in a 4 person car?

[Oli4]

Just now, Joebl0w13 said:

More cars to be filled with the desire to fit 10 people in a 4 person car?

More cars so we can spread the people across the cars so they dont have to sit asscheeck-to-asscheek in the car, even when its designed for 4 people it doesnt mean you gotta fill all 4 seats. With 5 cars you only have 2 people per car, which distributes the load. Or maybe we need something like a special van to transport our friends in, one that doesnt disapear after 24hours.

[Joebl0w13]

11 minutes ago, Oli4 said:

More cars so we can spread the people across the cars so they dont have to sit asscheeck-to-asscheek in the car, even when its designed for 4 people it doesnt mean you gotta fill all 4 seats. With 5 cars you only have 2 people per car, which distributes the load. Or maybe we need something like a special van to transport our friends in, one that doesnt disapear after 24hours.

You're missing the intent of my analogy (my fault not yours). In more detail, imagine that the driver of the car is allowed to invite as many friends as he wants. As such, he tries to invite 10 people into his 4 person car.

You see, it doesn't matter how many cars you throw at people. Each driver is still going to try to jam 10 of his friends in it.

In any case, people are going to have to self regulate how many dinos they have. Not much of a way around that. And as you can see, most people don't seem to be willing (or able) to take on that personal responsibility.

[Oli4]

Just now, Joebl0w13 said:

You're missing the intent of my analogy (my fault not yours). In more detail, imagine that the driver of the car is allowed to invite as many friend as he wants. As such, he tries to invite 10 people into his 4 person car.

You see, it doesn't matter how many cars you throw at people. Each driver is still going to try to jam 10 of his friends in it.

Looking at what you meant the issue is that wildcard tells you to invite up to 500 friends into your car, and keeps bringing you more and more friends that you should also want to bring to the party, however the car that wildcard provides doesnt have enough space for a lot of people to invite all their friends. On legacy this wasn't the issue because wildcard provided enough cars so everyone could bring along their 500 friends.

 

But to stop the anologies, I think a lot of the dino cap would be solved by implementing something to store dino's in without them disapearing after 24hours. WIth the current kibble system you just need to have so many eggers on stock and you can't share them with other tribes due to ORP(since ORP is enabled on official PVE dino's wont lay eggs when their owner isn't online). Ideally there would be a system to store all egg/kibble dino's in which will give eggs like the dino's do right now.  It doesnt necessarily have to be just kibble dino's, if I could upload the dino's I use for color mutations when they are on cooldown it would also reduce server lag(I.E. I'm currently getting giga color mutations so I have 40 female giga's that I only use once every 2 days to collect fertilized eggs)

[yekrucifixion187]

As I explained to the stubborn this weekend while we were dino capped, the ones who said, "I'm not killing my dino's because of WC's mess up".

Then enjoy a less efficient Minecraft while you stare at your useless dino's and can't breed or tame anything. Take that Anky you already own and enjoy mining metal to increase your base size thus reducing already terrible server quality. put that cross server trade on the back burner because if you transfer a dino off of here, you aren't bringing one back. Run a boss fight with those Rex's that aren't prepared and lose them and be faced with the reality that you can't replace them. be stubborn because you are right, that is your right to do so but stubbornness fosters more stubbornness and soon you'll be logging on to refresh your timers and top troughs and you could of stayed on legacy for that mess or work together as a community. Kill 10% of your dino's. kill your first gen's you're holding onto. if everybody does this, the server can continue with what we were doing. I even went first and had offed 20 dino's in about 10 minutes and next thing you know other's are doing the same and it is business as usual. 

Yes Ark is a social experiment and it could fail and that is very community dependent so sometimes since you know better you have to make that first gesture to get the ball rolling. 

[Joebl0w13]

2 minutes ago, Oli4 said:

Looking at what you meant the issue is that wildcard tells you to invite up to 500 friends into your car, and keeps bringing you more and more friends that you should also want to bring to the party, however the car that wildcard provides doesnt have enough space for a lot of people to invite all their friends. On legacy this wasn't the issue because wildcard provided enough cars so everyone could bring along their 500 friends.

This is the crux of the issue. WC doesn't require you to tame everything. Or 15 of each dino. People do that on their own accord.

I do think a tune up of the kibble mechanic would "help" the issue but certainly won't keep people from taming 15 copies of each dino. It is a sandbox game and people are left on their own to muck up the servers as they see fit.

[Oli4]

Just now, Joebl0w13 said:

This is the crux of the issue. WC doesn't require you to tame everything. Or 15 of each dino. People do that on their own accord.

I do think a tune up of the kibble mechanic would "help" the issue but certainly won't keep people from taming 15 copies of each dino. It is a sandbox game and people are left on their own to muck up the servers as they see fit.

I just checked my kibble farm, and I have 270 dino's just for kibble already, which isn't that high compared to other bigger tribes on the server. To have atleast some kind of flow of eggs you need atleast 1 male and 4-5 females per dino. From specific types we have 15 to 20, because the egg flow isn't fast enough. We have 20 quetzals and scorpions to tame giga's and rexes with. We will kill most rexes and giga's if they dont have a stat that we need/want for breeding, but it still costs us a lot of kibble to check the stats after tame.

In PVE pretty much the only thing there is left to do lategame is breeding and bosses, for both you need a lot of kibble(imprinting+taming), which promotes the use of lots of 'useless' dino's.

[HeatherJo]

1 hour ago, DiamondLlama said:

That is very, very, very specious logic. You are talking about a community, not individuals.Individuals can be held responsible for their actions, but in this case the individual player forms part of a larger group that plays on the server.

Communities dictate their own values, so one might play on a PVE server that encourages specific dino breeding - i.e. every tribe falls into a pattern of breeding a specific creature. The dino cap doesn't severely affect this server, players can cull heards once they have breeding stock.

Other communities, such as the one I played on, emphasise large base structures and large dino populations - kibble farming, self taming and very, very individualistic play - tribes are hardly ever greater than two people in size. These communities are naturally paranoid about bringing unknown players into the fold and as tribes with more 'active hours'; begin to dominate the map players must either fall under their sway or tame their own dinos. This sort of community is severely limited by the taming cap - it favours established, older groups who have had more time in situ.

My point is that you can't say the player is to blame here - they are reacting to the community they find themselves playing on. This makes player driven action less of a determining factor.

You defend the taming cap, I get that and we stand on opposite sides of that argument, but the problem will not be solved by telling everyone who bought this game that they have to play it strictly one way. The premise of Ark is based on experimentation - how will survivors behave in a situation they are placed. Now you are telling the community that the solutions they are developing don't match your expectations so we must adjust how we play. It doesn't work that way. Wild Card must find a way to achieve the limitations that doesn't so horribly infringe on the player.

My solution? Remove official mutliplayer if you can't sustain it. Which - judging by the overflowing servers, lagging horribly and tame capping on a daily basis - you can't. Force everyone to work on single player or self maintained servers. And when you finish howling at the obscenity of that suggestion, I hope that you will realise how tame capping the servers

is exactly as obscene and unhelpful

Excellent post, very well said and 100% accurate.

[Joebl0w13]

3 minutes ago, Oli4 said:

which promotes the use of lots of 'useless' dino's.

Agree 100%. I look forward to a re-work of the kibble system. If indeed that comes to pass.

[yekrucifixion187]

22 minutes ago, Oli4 said:

I just checked my kibble farm, and I have 270 dino's just for kibble already,

This is absurd. You don't have to tame the dino to get a sense of its stats. That is what pre-tame calculators are for. If it didn't distribute 30 or more points you can kill it right away. RNG is of course a huge factor here but you are capping the whole server for .5% chance and that is where the community aspect needs to be thought of.

All that number of kibble dino's says is I am aware of the limitations but I don't care about anybody else. This is "my" server. Well you have the option to have a "my" server but officials is not it. When you disregard the server limitations and the community aspect for yourself then you have 0 weight in an argument about server cap because you are blatantly ignoring what is there and not helping the cause. What you think WC is going to say, "oh this guy has 270 kibble dino's we need to up the server tame limit?" No, you are handicapping the enjoyment of others which is selfish and borderline bullying. Just cause you have a 500 limit doesn't mean you need to fill it.  

Also need 4 to 5 females? No, each dino has a proclivity to lay eggs more than others. Sure Scorpions are less prone to laying, well were before ovi buff, so if you want to start with 4 to 5 that makes sense but on single rate it takes 33 kibble to tame a 150 Rex which means when you reach 330 eggs you can kill two of those things and by the time you find ten 150 Rex's to tame you'll have another 100 eggs from the 2 females and 1 male remaining. If you are taming lower than 150's that is less eggs needed for the kibble. You also have the option to foster the community by trading for these items. 

Dodo's you maybe need 3 to start and eventually two. Dilo's, start with 4 and eventually 3. Anky's 4 to 3 and that can be condensed since you'll have female worker Anky's that drop eggs. Quetzal's I'll give you because of the large amount of eggs and rarity of drops. Iguan's 4 will get you the massive amount of kibble needed for a Daedon.

I don't know. I am trying to figure out how we have enough kibble for everything, except I needed to trade for some Megalosaurus kibble this weekend, to tame what we want yet our total dino count is more than 120 less than your egg farm. 

Stock the eggs, kill the easy tames, when you get to 50 eggs, tame them again and build back up a little then kill them again. It reduces lag in your base as well it doesn't cap the server dino count. I mean what did you do on legacy when the tribe cap was 200? I guess made alternate tribes. 

I know, I know. You'll play the game how you want to play it and nobody can tell you how to play it because you spent the money. WC made this mess and you shouldn't have to suffer for it. These are all very true points but the simple fact is that you will not be able to the play game at all with that mindset so I guess enjoy it while you can. 

[Oli4]

46 minutes ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

This is absurd. You don't have to tame the dino to get a sense of its stats. That is what pre-tame calculators are for. If it didn't distribute 30 or more points you can kill it right away. RNG is of course a huge factor here but you are capping the whole server for .5% chance and that is where the community aspect needs to be thought of.

 

FYI, the tribe I'm talking about consists of 8 active people. We only tame rexes with 30+ wild stat, even then RNG plays a major factor to get 48/50+ points in a single stat without mutations. And 500 dino's arent enough to cap an entire server. And like I said, I/we kill the rexes that don't get a higher stat than we currently have. As you can see from my trader rating I do plenty of trades, but at this point in the game people prefer to keep their work to themself, which you should respect; I understand why people won't put up their X dino eggs for 5-10k ingots while they worked on it for a fairly long time.

46 minutes ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

All that number of kibble dino's says is I am aware of the limitations but I don't care about anybody else. This is "my" server. Well you have the option to have a "my" server but officials is not it. When you disregard the server limitations and the community aspect for yourself then you have 0 weight in an argument about server cap because you are blatantly ignoring what is there and not helping the cause. What you think WC is going to say, "oh this guy has 270 kibble dino's we need to up the server tame limit?" No, you are handicapping the enjoyment of others which is selfish and borderline bullying. Just cause you have a 500 limit doesn't mean you need to fill it.  

 

I never said that I owned the server I play on. I don't disregard the server limitations in any way afaik, I respect the 500 tame per tribe cap without making alt tribes on the same server(I got one other server I play solo on but that one only has  like 100 dino's from breeding). It is wildcard that promotes personal/tribe owned kibble farms, before ORP we had(on legacy) a giant public kibble farm, but since ORP is enabled dino's that are ORP protected won't lay eggs.

 

46 minutes ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

Also need 4 to 5 females? No, each dino has a proclivity to lay eggs more than others. Sure Scorpions are less prone to laying, well were before ovi buff, so if you want to start with 4 to 5 that makes sense but on single rate it takes 33 kibble to tame a 150 Rex which means when you reach 330 eggs you can kill two of those things and by the time you find ten 150 Rex's to tame you'll have another 100 eggs from the 2 females and 1 male remaining. If you are taming lower than 150's that is less eggs needed for the kibble. You also have the option to foster the community by trading for these items.

Perhaps you only tame 10 rexes in your life, but as stated above we tame 10 rexes/day easily.

46 minutes ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

Dodo's you maybe need 3 to start and eventually two. Dilo's, start with 4 and eventually 3. Anky's 4 to 3 and that can be condensed since you'll have female worker Anky's that drop eggs. Quetzal's I'll give you because of the large amount of eggs and rarity of drops. Iguan's 4 will get you the massive amount of kibble needed for a Daedon.

Again, I don't know how much you tame or imprint, but we raise 30-40dino's around the clock(mixing stats, killing off the old ones once we have a good pair), imprinting all giga's/rexes/tuso's/mosa's. People also want to imprint a personal theri/anky etc, which also costs imprinting kibble.

46 minutes ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

I don't know. I am trying to figure out how we have enough kibble for everything, except I needed to trade for some Megalosaurus kibble this weekend, to tame what we want yet our total dino count is more than 120 less than your egg farm. 

Ok.

46 minutes ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

Stock the eggs, kill the easy tames, when you get to 50 eggs, tame them again and build back up a little then kill them again. It reduces lag in your base as well it doesn't cap the server dino count. I mean what did you do on legacy when the tribe cap was 200? I guess made alternate tribes.

Already doing this, but the rate isn't fast enough with fewer dino's. Only cap I know was the 500 tame cap when it was introduced.

46 minutes ago, yekrucifixion187 said:

I know, I know. You'll play the game how you want to play it and nobody can tell you how to play it because you spent the money. WC made this mess and you shouldn't have to suffer for it. These are all very true points but the simple fact is that you will not be able to the play game at all with that mindset so I guess enjoy it while you can. 

I don't see how I wont be able to play the game this way? It worked just fine on legacy.

[skuIlman]

What about a way to say - freeze a dino, so that it's rendered as a structure insted of an entity with the ability to still lay eggs. would allow for kibble farms with less lag, aswell as bringin down the cap a bit.

[DESTROYER]

The real issue is someone has a army of 2000 battle hardened dodos waiting in the shadows ready to strike at a moments notice.

[SlySkyGuy]

OK, my turn to comment to the Dev's and WC management my feelings. roughly 1800 hours played now and I have read a lot of this post without seeing WC respond. I believe this post will go unanswered also.
My felling is this game is made up of a few components.. survival, farming material, taming Dino's, building a base, and eventually raiding bosses and getting tek gear. Most players will never get to raiding bosses in this game and that's fine.. but right now most new players cannot do anything more than survive and farm materials. 

How about instead of limiting a server to 4000 dino's which has screwed almost all tribes now, why not restrict each player (steam account ID) to a limited amount of Dino's across all official servers (say 100). Also each Steam ID can only join 1 server per game type, or a max of 4 tribes / servers. You can visit other island servers and take Dino's but cannot create a tribe to get extra Dino's there. This would allow cross server raiding / trading still.

single player tribe gets 10 dino's extra, 2/20, 3/30, 4/40 AND each Tribe of 5 players or more gets 50 max extra dino's for kibble farming <KIBBLE farming: According to https://ark.gamepedia.com/Imprinting/Kibble_List>. This allows the 15 possible imprint dino's needed x 1 male and 2 female..

Each player can tame 10 - 20 Dino's kibble to tame their favorite dino types. leaving them 80-90 slots for their dino's.

           currently 1 single player could have 10,000 dino's and off load dino's to servers they don't even play on ...

 

building structures and base size.. pillar / foundation and wall spam

Another massive problem is building in this game is great, destroying what you build sucks hardcore.. so rebuilding somewhere else is easier.

How about each tribe is allowed 200 spaces square to build UN-interrupted from pillars and other players. This cannot be over resources, player spawn points, artifacts, and spawn beacon locations (however right beside)... 200 spaces is for tribes of 5 or more players, a single player with a single amount of Dino's  only gets 50 x 50 to build on.

 

pillar spam is no longer allowed, and resource blocking has to also be dealt with (WC needs to step up the management side or support the official servers like they said they would. We have the ability to build up and that doesn't take more ground, so there really is unlimited building for a 5 man tribe you could build 200 x 200 x 70

I like the game, players I have dealt with and would be OK with restrictive rules brought in so everyone can explore the game as it was created. I can go to private servers if these problems are not resolved, but I would probably just stop playing WC games as I will have wasted time getting close to end game content and being restricted by server caps beyond my control.

[yekrucifixion187]

@Oli4

You have a large tribe so it's understandable having such a large farm but as much as it sucks this right here is the case of exercising self control. This worked on legacy because the tribe tame limit was 200 dino's and the server I was on (joined March of this year) never came close to the limit. We were able to breed and raise Giga's, Anky's, Rex's, Quetzal's, pretty much anything we wanted. We made a conscious effort to keep our tribe limit at 180 despite the 200 available to us. At our top we had 5 people but we just maintained that strict discipline and operated out of 3 bases. We did this for both our server's sake and our own sake as flying into a laggy base is never fun.

So yes WC made a huge mistake allowing a tribe to have 500 dino's or 10% of the server population. You alone of course aren't the sole reason that a server may get capped but you get 3 or 4 tribes with the same thinking now we are up to 2000 dino's. Even if each tribe has 8 members that is 32 people controlling 40 percent of the server tame population. That means the rest of the 38 people who can play on the serverat the same time get 78.94 dino's and that is assuming that there are only 38 other people who play on that server. More likely each server has 100 or more people that play on that server at any given time. This further reduces the available tame limit to about 44.11 dino's per person for the additional  68 people that may play at any point.

Yes this is WC's fault but it can and should still be controlled by the server members who recognize that it is a huge mistake by WC. Someone who wants to play official and function within a community should recognize this, be leaders, and exercise self control with their own aspirations for the sake of a healthy server. It doesn't mean you can't have everything you want at some point but rather narrow the focus. Go hard on Giga's, Rex's, Quetzal's, Daedon's, Yuty's, Mosa's, and Anky's early on. When you get Anky's or whatever to where you want them then add an additional focus. To me this is both more efficient plus helps the server. However if you have a pet project of say Direbears so you already tamed 6 of them but you don't touch them for months while you focus more on the other dino's that's just capping numbers for the time being. 

I don't know. I've never had a problem sacrificing a little to help out somebody else. It usually comes back in a good way but more importantly it gives someone else a chance to, in this particular case, play the game and get enjoyment out of it. That's usually fun for me. 

 

Edit: I just thought to myself, always had 500 tribe limit and realized you played on PC. Better graphic cards so lag not as big of an issue. i do find it interesting that you never reached server cap limit though with the numbers there unless it was bigger number on PC in legacy. I am not sure to be honest. With the current restrictions though and the fact that Ark is now used by a wider community it would be why we are having server cap issues so it is still an adjustment that needs to be made.