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New to Air to Air combat. I don't see how a griffin is better than a wyvern


johnm81

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1 hour ago, Fistfeet said:

You can use a rifle on a griffin.  Shoot the Wyvern rider directly.  If you are good at aiming and they don't suspect you you could probably kill them before they even realise what is attacking them.

Yes the notion of an ambush gives a big advantage.

 

18 hours ago, johnm81 said:

How is the Griffin better than a Wyvern unless its a situation where the Griffin ambushes a Wyvern from higher alt without being seen?

With that said, if both pilots are aware of each other that would be a pretty amazing shot to use a longneck/musket and hit a moving wyvern's rider.

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So I did a few tests with tribemates. It was a race to the top of the sky. Each of the races the wyvern reached skytop first. Now the Griffin, while speed boosted climbed faster. But the act of having to descend to climb fast resulted in the wyvern reaching the top of the sky quicker. I tried tracking my route vs the wyverns. I always ended reaching the top of the sky farther away from the start point than the wyvern and I had to do about 4 small dives to speed boost my way to the top.

 

race to sky.gif

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19 hours ago, rororoxor said:

4K damage? Surely that's an exaggeration? I tamed a lvl 130 griffin, which tamed out to lvl 195 with 8.8K hp and 240 melee. I leveled it up to 300% and the dive swipe does around 1.1K damage. Or are my stats just bad?

my griffin is a level 287. 22k health and over 900 melee. he is a tank. no exaggeration here. 

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It all depends on the rider of both the griffin and the wyvern, if both are well versed in air combat then it depends pretty much on the stats of the tames and who gets the drop on the other.

A good wyvern rider vs a noob on a griffin, wyvern any day of the week, and vice versa. 

Some people manage extremely lucky shots from the back of a griffin and pin the wyvern rider, most don't. Some wyvern riders will pick you in a second from an impossible angle and chomp your griffin.

Noob vs noob is hilarious though watching them circle each other trying to go for a pick or a few bites until the griffin has to land and gets chomped instantly.

Stop thinking of the air combat as 2 dimensional, it's not about circling on one plane or climbing fastest vertically, it's more about using movement on all planes, tighten or loosen your loops by altering height at the same time, it makes it a lot more difficult for the other rider to predict your movements, swing wide and bank up to gain height whilst you turn, spend a few hours seeing what you can actually make the tame do, a lot of players are shocked.

Just as an example, you can reverse on quetzals whilst in the air..............

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Wyverns perform better than griffins on everything that is not PvP.

The reason why the Griffins are superior to wyverns in PvP is because they can hit you way more than you can hit them.

On PvE however, Wyverns absolutely destroy Griffins, they're faster, can carry more stuff, hit harder, can fly for longer periods of time, and they can endure more hits than the Griffin can (this is because of the Imprinting bonus)

They can kill anything in PvE way faster than a Griffin can, the reason being that wild dinos are pretty dumb, they don't know how to dodge attacks and sometimes can't even get to you, so in the end, it's pretty hard for you to miss when fighting against these guys.

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The Griffin will always have the advantage. The maneuverability and dive-speed advantages would see to that all by themselves, but once you add in the damage-dealing ability of the Griffin, there is no competition. 

If you're losing to a Wyvern and you're on a Griffin, it means you lack in skill. If you're on a Wyvern and the Griffin isn't hurting you, it means you get to laugh at the Griffin rider.

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Griffins are actually broken imo. The main tactic to use with them is constant dive swipes on the enemy, even if used a stam pumped griffin, because their dive swipe interupts "runs" meaning even against other griffins it's pretty OP because the moment you get that successful swipe the other flyer can barely move.

Picking imo is just a very silly thing to do unless you can be certain the enemy has no gear. People have tried to pick me and cause themselves and their birds to be killed in the process.

 

If you want a counter to either wyvern or griffin. Water... or grapples+melee+sword

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On 10/20/2017 at 10:55 PM, johnm81 said:

So what you are suggesting is that the meta is no longer dog fight to pick. But dog fight to actually damage the enemy pilots tame till they die or have to retreat from the theater of engagement?

I think a better way to look at this, is that it's no longer just a dog fight to pick. Anyone who allows themself to get sucked into a turning battle with a wyvern is not using their griffon properly and is asking to get beaten. Just like with real aircraft, you have to adjust your tactics based on the capabilities of you and your opponent. If you can maneuver into a position to pick the rider with your griffin that's great, picking a rider is certainly important, but if you begin a combat with a mutual head-on attack then you're depending on a coin toss to see who comes out better, just like starting a dogfight in airplanes with a head-on attack. Then, if you follow up that coin toss by engaging in a turning battle against an opponent who's superior at turning battles, you're pretty much just throwing away the fight.

The real question you should be asking yourself is - what tactics should you be practicing on the griffin to give you the maximum chance to win a dogfight with a wyvern? Practicing a for a turn fight is definitely not the right answer, so instead think about zooom-and-boom tactics and using energy management, just like a real aircraft might do in a fight between opponents with different strengths and weaknesses. Learn the tactics that play to your strengths while playing against their weaknesses.

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12 hours ago, johnm81 said:

Are you sure this isn't a boosted non-official server? One of the wyverns he killed was a 192. I thought max level for an official server was 190.

That was me and yes it is unofficial but its only slightly boosted so the max level of mobs is 180.  Wyverns get up to like 216 or something.  My griffin there had about 900% damage which I would guess is obtainable on official servers.

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23 hours ago, Cripling said:

I believe that can also be done with a wyvern using C while flying.

Sure, but this thread is about air to air combat, try to pick people off their pteras or griffins with a wyvern and theyr crap turn radius and generally poor agility and see how it goes.
A good ptera with a good stamina can barrel roll in and pick people and drop them.

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1 hour ago, M3atball said:

Sure, but this thread is about air to air combat, try to pick people off their pteras or griffins with a wyvern and theyr crap turn radius and generally poor agility and see how it goes.
A good ptera with a good stamina can barrel roll in and pick people and drop them.

As discussed further back in the thread, any flyer can win if it strikes first.

This is about air to air combat, not picking players off mounts. Spin at me on your ptera, ill stop dead (putting wyvern into its resting in the air position, wings out to side claws down) so you spin into my body get deflected because you hit a solid wyvern and press C to pick you whilst your between my wings.

Or you succeed to pick me, and i grapple your ptera as you try to drop me and shoot the rider, or burn/stab the ptera to death.

An experienced player has multiple counters for being picked as it is such an obvious tactic and used so frequently.

It has also been agreed that circling is for noobs, in a race to height limit wyvern wins, in drawn out fights whoever lands first looses. 

 

For me, once again it is all down to experience in the air and knowledge of both your mount, and the persons your fighting against. If your on a wyvern and you see a griffin coming at you, climb and assess the situation, you see a ptera prepare to be picked, you see a wyvern figure out what type asap and act accordingly.

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On 10/25/2017 at 1:53 AM, Coolermh said:

That was me and yes it is unofficial but its only slightly boosted so the max level of mobs is 180.  Wyverns get up to like 216 or something.  My griffin there had about 900% damage which I would guess is obtainable on official servers.

You can't breed Griffins, so this is unrealistically high for an official server.  Even if you could breed them its almost unobtainably high.  Compare with Ankys, for eg.  How many 900% ankys have you seen around?  And how much work went in to them?

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On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:20 PM, Fistfeet said:

You can use a rifle on a griffin.  Shoot the Wyvern rider directly.  If you are good at aiming and they don't suspect you you could probably kill them before they even realise what is attacking them.

The back seat of a griffon really shines here. Especially if your passenger is a crack shot with a rocket launcher. :D:D:D

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your comment is absolutely unnecessary and i interpret it as slightly rude.

dino stats on dedicated servers are just as relevant as official rates. the only taming stats that receive any kind of boost in my server are weight and hunger...did i mention either of those stats? i didn't. so the melee and health stats are scaled with level the exact same way that they are on official. if i took the time to tame the same griffin with the same stats on official servers then it's level 288 would be a mirror of the stats i have on mine, minus weight and food.

obviously the xp rate is boosted so i am able to max out the level much quicker, but that's not relevant. OPs concern was how are griffins better than wyverns, not a single mention of official only. a griffin is better than a wyvern on both official and unofficial. it may take more time to level it up to take on an imprinted wyvern but a properly leveled griffin can smash any wyvern.

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18 hours ago, Kallor said:

You don't have these stats on an official server.  Dino stats from modded servers are utterly irrelevant.  Why would you even bother posting them.

your comment is absolutely unnecessary and i interpret it as slightly rude.

dino stats on dedicated servers are just as relevant as official rates. the only taming stats that receive any kind of boost in my server are weight and hunger...did i mention either of those stats? i didn't. so the melee and health stats are scaled with level the exact same way that they are on official. if i took the time to tame the same griffin with the same stats on official servers then it's level 288 would be a mirror of the stats i have on mine, minus weight and food.

obviously the xp rate is boosted so i am able to max out the level much quicker, but that's not relevant. OPs concern was how are griffins better than wyverns, not a single mention of official only. a griffin is better than a wyvern on both official and unofficial. it may take more time to level it up to take on an imprinted wyvern but a properly leveled griffin can smash any wyvern.

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23 minutes ago, Demigod said:

your comment is absolutely unnecessary and i interpret it as slightly rude.

dino stats on dedicated servers are just as relevant as official rates.

I could post in this thread that my Ptera does 10k damage and is better than a Griffin or Wyvern. Tell me again how dino stats on dedicated servers are just as relevant as official.  Unofficial server stats don't count and shouldn't be mentioned unless you have identical settings to official.  You don't have official settings so therefore is meaningless since we have no basis for comparison.

You claimed 4k+ damage on a dive.  With a base damage of 375 for diving slash, that's 1067%+ melee damage (which requires 73pt base melee and 71 levels).  You aren't getting that level of damage on official, even with putting every single levelup point in melee.   Especially not with 22k hp.

So you have a Griffin with stats that cannot be reached on official on a modded server.   How is this useful information to everyone else on Official.  It isn't.

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18 hours ago, Kallor said:

I could post in this thread that my Ptera does 10k damage and is better than a Griffin or Wyvern. Tell me again how dino stats on dedicated servers are just as relevant as official.  Unofficial server stats don't count and shouldn't be mentioned unless you have identical settings to official.  You don't have official settings so therefore is meaningless since we have no basis for comparison.

You claimed 4k+ damage on a dive.  With a base damage of 375 for diving slash, that's 1067%+ melee damage (which requires 73pt base melee and 71 levels).  You aren't getting that level of damage on official, even with putting every single levelup point in melee.   Especially not with 22k hp.

So you have a Griffin with stats that cannot be reached on official on a modded server.   How is this useful information to everyone else on Official.  It isn't.

to be fair, the dive damage is roughly between 3.2 and 3.3k. it's not quite 4k, was a bit of an exaggeration and i apologize for that but these are the legitimate figures. however, my dive damage was enough to one-shot any wyvern under level 60. 

if base dive damage is 375, then every additional level would add 18.75 to it. correct? let me do the math a little bit. i don't remember all of the exact values because the server was shut down but this is to the absolute best of my memory.

so i tamed mine at 145, tames out to be 217. melee turned out to be around 270%. 375 x 270% = 1012.5 damage. and that's without any additional levels. the griffin is maxed out in leveling now at 288, majority of the points went into melee. 288 - 217 = 71 levels i can distribute however i want.

the griffin has +5% base damage per level. post-tame melee was 270. 270 x 5% = 13.5% damage per additional level. so let's add this up now. the post-tame dive damage was 1012.5. out of 71 levels i had to add, 4/7 of them were put into melee, 2/7 were put into health, and the rest into weight and stam.

so for simplicity, we will say 41 levels into melee. 41 x 13.5 = 553.5% additional damage. 375 x 553.5% = 2075.6 additional damage. 2075. 6 + 1012.5 = 3088.1 dive damage. that's not too far off from the damage i'm describing. if i would have placed every single point into melee, my dive would have been over 4.5k damage.

this is absolutely 100% on par with official server settings. proof that a properly leveled griffin on officials could take on wyverns. in fact, a good "pilot" could probably use lower level griffins against wyverns and come out alive, if utilizing the dive. the only issue i've had when facing wyverns is the ridiculous accuracy and range that wild lightning wyverns have with their attack. if you aren't careful then you can lose your griffin to a high level one.

as for mounted wyverns, their bites are usually very hefty so a griffin would be able to tank less shots compared to a wild one, plus the maneuvering tactics that riders use will make you change your methods when attacking one. but even at the extreme end, good wyvern & rider vs good griffin & rider, the griffin will likely win due to its extreme speed, ability to strafe, and dive attack.

so from what i've gathered, you have contributed absolutely nothing to this thread regarding OPs point. not only that, but you are claiming that my information isn't relevant when you haven't even said a relavent thing to this thread, or considered that a large portion of the player base DOES play on unofficial servers so there are several people that this post is relevant to. remember, weight and hunger are the only modified stats in my old server, and neither of those play any roll in this topic. are we done now?

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