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New to Air to Air combat. I don't see how a griffin is better than a wyvern


johnm81

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So I have read the general idea that when it comes to dog fighting the Griffin is the king of the skies. But in practice I just don't see it. Now it's true that the griffin is faster for short spurts when it has a chance to climb high altitude and swoop down. But in almost ever dog fight I have been practicing in with tribe mates I have learned that if the Wyvern rider is aware of the griffins existence, he can bank hard and initiate a dog fight pattern like this:

It starts with the Wyvern and Griffin approaching each other at max speeds. Usually there is an initial attempt to pick which usually fails and then both pilots engage this maneuver (The one circle flow or two circle flow)

Circle_flow_in_fighter_combat.JPG

At that point it transitions to a turn circle geometry. In the below pic, look at it as if you were looking down from the sky towards the ground:

Turn_circle_geometry.JPG

And at this point The griffin's initial speed bonus is gone and is starting to get low on stamina. The Wyvern has plenty of stamina and now is gaining on the Griffin in this loop. But the biggest benefit for the Wyvern starts when I put his head to as far as I can over his own shoulder and shoot my fire, ice, or lightening breath. It actually hits the Griffin. Did the same with a Pteranodon. So during the dog fight the Wyvern has a stamina advantage, does damage to the enemy while trying to get in position to pick them, AND eventually is traveling faster than the Griffin after the initial one circle flow maneuver. On top of all of that the, the Wyvern has a larger grab area. He can miss the target more and still get a successful grab connection to the rider. And if being played as a defensive unit, the wyvern, not griffin, can pick up stegos dropped on his own base.

 

 What am I missing here? How is the Griffin better than a Wyvern unless its a situation where the Griffin ambushes a Wyvern from higher alt without being seen?

 

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The patterns above aren't the tactics I use in griffin to wyvern combat. I fly to the ceiling and dive bomb the wyvern, using my claw attack and then while I still have the hyper speed on I pull up hard and repeat until the wyvern is dead. Every now and then the wyvern is able to hit me with a breath attack but almost never more than once. 

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You do realize that the griffin's swipe does massively multiplied dmg when diving? So even one hit will put a dent on any wyvern. Also, the griffins turning radius is smaller not to mention it can strafe and fly backwards. As for the stamina, as soon as you start to run out, dive down to the ground and into possible cover to regen. 

And the griffin speed boost can be exploited to a MASSIVE extent (for instance, you can actually "bounce" off creatures and gain an upward speed boost similar as you were when diving. It's actually really fun to test and discover all these hidden mechanics. Try it!

As for wyvern fighting (particularly enemy tamed wyverns) it might be helpful to dive slightly downwards, swoop back up and attack from underneath.

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2 minutes ago, KrakenOverlord said:

The patterns above aren't the tactics I use in griffin to wyvern combat. I fly to the ceiling and dive bomb the wyvern, using my claw attack and then while I still have the hyper speed on I pull up hard and repeat until the wyvern is dead. Every now and then the wyvern is able to hit me with a breath attack but almost never more than once. 

Is that a situation where you are ambushing the wyvern without the enemy pilot knowing of your existance?

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3 minutes ago, rororoxor said:

You do realize that the griffin's swipe does massively multiplied dmg when diving? So even one hit will put a dent on any wyvern. Also, the griffins turning radius is smaller not to mention it can strafe and fly backwards. As for the stamina, as soon as you start to run out, dive down to the ground and into possible cover to regen. 

And the griffin speed boost can be exploited to a MASSIVE extent (for instance, you can actually "bounce" off creatures and gain an upward speed boost similar as you were when diving. It's actually really fun to test and discover all these hidden mechanics. Try it!

Does that strat still work if the Wyvern pilot sees you and follows you up to the top of the sky as you climb?

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1 hour ago, johnm81 said:

I meant the initial climb where the griffin was getting its first speed bonus.

Ya, it definitely can catch up to you then, but you can easily outmaneuver them by strafing and moving backwards to dodge their attacks until you get enough altitude for the dive. Besides, griffins have decent health so you can tank quite a few attacks. As a last resort, carry flame arrows or some other weapon to deter them (griffins allow mounted weaponry).

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Just now, rororoxor said:

Ya, it definitely can catch up to you then, but you can easily outmaneuver them by strafing and moving backwards to dodge their attacks until you get enough altitude for the dive. Besides, griffins have decent health so you can tank quite a few attacks. As a last resort, carry flame arrows or some other weapon to deter them (griffins allow mounted weaponry).

So what you are suggesting is that the meta is no longer dog fight to pick. But dog fight to actually damage the enemy pilots tame till they die or have to retreat from the theater of engagement?

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2 minutes ago, johnm81 said:

I meant the initial climb where the griffin was getting its first speed bonus.

honestly even in the initial climb the griffin is way faster than the dragon. When I'm raiding with my wyvern I get to the ceiling ASAP that way they can't get the drop on me. If your stuck under a griffin it just takes practice to get your breath timed right with a lightning wyvern. You can REALLY mess a griffin up this way because of the stam drop. 

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1 hour ago, johnm81 said:

So what you are suggesting is that the meta is no longer dog fight to pick. But dog fight to actually damage the enemy pilots tame till they die or have to retreat from the theater of engagement?

Basically.

It's not very efficient to use griffins for direct fighting (because their regular unboosted attack is terrible) but use it as a hit and run fighter against big tanky wyverns. Trust me, the griffin excels at that.

Also know that the AoE for the boosted swipe is magnificent (so you can hit wyverns from afar without getting stuck on their bodies)

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3 minutes ago, johnm81 said:

So what you are suggesting is that the meta is no longer dog fight to pick. But dog fight to actually damage the enemy pilots tame till they die or have to retreat from the theater of engagement?

in my experience, yes. Especially since I leave my wyvern on neutral before I raid, lol. You can kill me but he's still gonna bbq dat a$$ if he catches you. :D:D:D

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4 minutes ago, rororoxor said:

Basically.

It's not very efficient to use griffins for direct fighting (because their regular unboosted attack is terrible) but use it as a hit and run fighter against big tanky wyverns. Trust me, the griffin excels at that.

 

3 minutes ago, KrakenOverlord said:

in my experience, yes. Especially since I leave my wyvern on neutral before I raid, lol. You can kill me but he's still gonna bbq dat a$$ if he catches you. :D:D:D

Let me throw a curve ball at both of you and take what you are saying but this time against a Ice Wyvern with a massive 9 second slow debuff on its breath attack. Does that change much?

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1 hour ago, johnm81 said:

 

Let me throw a curve ball at both of you and take what you are saying but this time put against a Ice Wyvern with a massive 9 second slow debuff on its breath attack. Does that change much?

It shouldn't be impossible to dodge an enemy ice wyvern's breath, (again, strafe) but if you do get hit, try to get beneath its face and dismount the rider with a whip or microraptor. Tank a few bites if you have to.

Not gonna lie to you. If you get hit, you might find urself in a bit of a tight spot.

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57 minutes ago, rororoxor said:

It shouldn't be impossible to dodge an enemy ice wyvern's breath, (again, strafe) but if you do get hit, try to get beneath its face and dismount the rider with a whip or microraptor. Tank a few bites if you have to.

Not gonna lie to you. If you get hit, you might find urself in a bit of a tight spot.

 

 

Maybe I am doing this wrong, but when I go to the top of the sky with my griffin nose down and start getting my wooshing sound speed boost, as soon as I pull up the speed boost leaves....

Regardless how long I kept diving for the speed boost leaves the moment I start to climb altitude. Was this a recent nerf?

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10 hours ago, johnm81 said:

 

 

Maybe I am doing this wrong, but when I go to the top of the sky with my griffin nose down and start getting my wooshing sound speed boost, as soon as I pull up the speed boost leaves....

Regardless how long I kept diving for the speed boost leaves the moment I start to climb altitude. Was this a recent nerf?

No, the speed boost should still work.

Are you pulling up too quickly? That will cancel out the boost. You're supposed to glide a short distance and pull up slowly, while holding the sprint button.

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i hate to say it, but the griffin is far superior to the wyvern when it comes to ariel combat. and trust me, the 30+ fire talons in my griffins inventory are proof enough of that.

its just as easy to kill a mounted wyvern as it is to kill a wild one. the aoe on the griffin is larger than the wyvern, the turning radius is tighter, the dps is higher (except for special attacks) and it can tank a lot of hits.

the dive is what makes it truly shine. when you can deliver 4k+ damage on a dive attack, the most you would ever need to hit your target is five times. and i have no issue with stamina, i can fly from green ob to red ob without landing. the dive doesn't have to be performed at the ceiling, and the speed boost can be gained from a very short dive.

honestly if you are on a wyvern and you spot a hostile player on a high level griffin, don't even attempt. they may be smaller but they are the wyvern's biggest threat at the moment.

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3 hours ago, Demigod said:

 

the dive is what makes it truly shine. when you can deliver 4k+ damage on a dive attack, the most you would ever need to hit your target is five times. and i have no issue with stamina, i can fly from green ob to red ob without landing. the dive doesn't have to be performed at the ceiling, and the speed boost can be gained from a very short dive.

4K damage? Surely that's an exaggeration? I tamed a lvl 130 griffin, which tamed out to lvl 195 with 8.8K hp and 240 melee. I leveled it up to 300% and the dive swipe does around 1.1K damage. Or are my stats just bad?

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2 hours ago, DeningWei said:

Once the griffin gets to a height that it can dive, its game over.  The griffin might not even target you straight away, they might dive to get even higher until they get to a height where they can kill you at will.

 

You can fight them at the ceiling though.

Just fly up to the sky until the griffin has no stamina then kill him ;). Easy going if the griffin have to dive for dmg and you allways fly up he wont get 1 hit ...

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1 hour ago, rororoxor said:

4K damage? Surely that's an exaggeration? I tamed a lvl 130 griffin, which tamed out to lvl 195 with 8.8K hp and 240 melee. I leveled it up to 300% and the dive swipe does around 1.1K damage. Or are my stats just bad?

Unless he managed to find one with insane Melee stats and also pumped a huge amount of Melee post-tame, I think he's exaggerating or is playing on a server with boosted stats. 4k damage on the swipe is nearly 1100% Melee damage, or nearly 2600% if he's talking about the Slam (I think he meant the swipe though). I think 240% post-tame is pretty good, since you have to remember the Griffin gets a -50% Add Bonus on tame.

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