Breaking the Boss Meta, An In-Depth Examination

[CyanicEmber]

So I have been very curious lately whether or not there are any alternatives to the standard bred/imprinted 17-19 Rexes, 1-2 Daeodons, and 1 Yuty, that has now become standard boss Meta. To test this, I set up a training dummy and spawned in a swathe of level 1 dinos just to get an idea of how they perform at their base statistics. I know that damage against the training dummy is the same as damage against thatch buildings, but this test should still give us a ballpark idea of the comparative damage levels of these creatures.

When doing these tests I made certain that there were no mate boosts whatsoever and to avoid human error I used a macro that triggered repeatedly every thousandth of a second to perform all attacks so that the only limiter on damage was the speed of the creature's attack animations themselves. Also, I made certain that Singleplayer Settings were OFF. (I recognize that Officials have vastly different boss values currently and that they are nigh impossible at the moment, but you can still extrapolate the relative strength of creatures from this data. ^_^)

Belows are my initial findings (and some creatures were randomly thrown in for kicks), let me know if you'd like to see any other creatures tested.

Creature	Base Damage	Base DPS	Alt Damage	Alt DPS	Pack Boost Damage	Pack Boost DPS	Alpha Boost Damage	Alpha Boost DPS
Direwolf	464	836			557	1115	836	1505
Allosaurus	508	916					763	1373
Megalosaurus	1090	1526
Tyrannosaurus	901	1262
Spinosaurus	726	1163
Gigantopithecus	581	814-9301
Therizinosaurus	755	1058
Baryonyx	457	641
Carnotaurus	508	712
Chalicotherium	523	732	1443	578
Direbear	726	872
Thylacoleo	563	788
Megatherium	465	651	712	570			1162 (1780)	1628 (1424)
Triceratops	465	744
Wooly Rhino	581	698	78482	[2267]2
Mammoth	610	610	872	523

General Viability Candidates

 

Megalosaurus

So, as you can see, I tested 16 different candidates and found that the best base damage potential of all tested creatures without factoring in boosts of any kind is the Megalosaurus, clocking in at 1090 damage per attack and 1526 damage per second. It outperforms the Rex by approximately 300 damage per second and has comparable base health! (1100 for the Rex and 1025 for the Megalo) AND, not only does it have comparable base health, but it's damage actually scales /higher/ when wild levels are applied to that stat. (3.1% for the Rex and 3.75% for the Megalo)

My biggest concern with the Megalo was that it's small size would result in it being knocked backwards by bosses, thus decreasing it's effective DPS vs the Rex's. Upon testing it appears that the knockback from the Broodmother at least is negligible and the real problem is the Araneo. They actually inflict far greater knock-back against the Megalosaurus. With a larger dino such as Spino or Rex to beat the Araneo's back, the Megalos should be able to swarm the Broodmother and maintain a solid DPS without too much difficulty. Other bosses still require testing.

Overall Impression: Viable (Requires Further Testing to be Conclusive)

 

 

Direwolves

Coming in second for raw damage output is an Alpha Boosted Direwolf! Obviously the largest concern with these buggers is their extremely low base health pool coupled with their lack of saddle armor. I did some further testing on them to see if the Pack Boosts gave them a significant armor boost or not. What I found was interesting. A single attack with a Primitive Metal Sword and zero levels in Melee Damage yields 72 damage against a non pack boosted wild Direwolf. Against a +4 boosted Wild Direwolf (the maximum) it deals 82 damage. Against a Pack Boosted Alpha Wolf it deals 61 damage. So only the Alpha in a pack receives a damage reduction buff, while the other members of the pack actually take slightly more damage. (This was probably intentional to make it possible to strategically target and eliminate weaker members of a pack and thus weaken the pack overall.) 

My conclusion is that Direwolves could be viable against Gamma Bosses IF there was a way to position them so that they didn't take any damage. (Not very likely...) Perhaps you could pull this off with a tank of some sort, but I have a hard time seeing it actually work...

Overall Impression: Non-Viable

 

 

Allosaurus

As you can see from this data, the base damage of an Allosaurus is not actually that great, pretty average really in terms of upper-tier dinos. But what about the Alpha Boost? It is a common myth that the Allosaurus bleed attack affects bosses, but this is currently not true, that doesn't make the Alpha Boost irrelevant however...

I believe that the mechanic is wired so that you can have one alpha in every pack of four Allos. If you were to take 20 Allos that would be five Alphas. Adding the DPS of 5 Alpha Allos and 15 Base Allos together gives us a total of 20,605 DPS IF all Allos are attacking simultaneously (That's not always the case due to knock-back). If you take 20 Rexes and add their DPS together you get 25,240 total. Factoring in the lower base Health of Allos I believe the performance gap between them and Rexes is simply impossible to bridge. (Perhaps, if you took 16 Allos, three Daeodons, and a Yuty this strategy might work? Not sure if the Daeo's healing affect stacks...)

Overall Impression: Viable (But probably not as good as Rexes.)

 

 

Spinosaurus

And here we come to the Spinosaurus, the oft overlooked Apex predator that everyone says needs to hit the gym... As you can see it's base damage is about 200 less than the Rex, but it's DPS is only 100 less than the Rex. It's faster attack speed DOES make a difference, but it DOES NOT out DPS the Rex as many people claim. That said, the Spino does have some advantages including a tighter turning radius and a higher attack range. Do those really factor in? Perhaps, depending on how you are positioned. A Spino could potentially reduce the damage it ends up taking by using it's extended attack range to keep boss minions back or stay just out of the boss's reach a few times per fight.

Overall Impression: Viable (But it's roughly equal or slightly inferior to the Rex depending on how you look at it.)

 

 

Therizinosaurus

And now we come to the Tyrannosaurus' Herbivorous Rival! Is it viable? Well the data speaks for itself. It has lower base damage than the Spino and the Rex, (lower even than the Direbear), and lower DPS to boot (though higher than the Direbear here). If the Therizinosaurus dealt damage with each swing of it's claws instead of just one (as it originally did upon release) it would probably out damage everything else on the entire list. But sadly, this is not the case. It does of course have the advantage of Sweet Veggie Cakes, but this only nets it 2100 HP every 30 seconds, which makes a relatively small impact against heavy hitting bosses. Perhaps combined with the healing power of a Daeodon and a Yuty Buff for Damage Resistance it could out-tank some of the other candidates, but I honestly doubt it.

Many people have also suggested that the Therizinosaurus might be specifically viable versus the Dragon due to it's Herbivorous fire/explosive resistances. Sadly though, recent evidence suggests that this is not the case either. I need to do testing on this issue specifically to be sure. Will get back to you all on that! If you have any information on this in particular, please share.

Overall Impression: Non-Viable (In my opinion, it simply doesn't deal enough DPS to justify choosing it over an Apex Carnivore and the Veggie Cake healing factor isn't significant enough to offset that damage gap.) 


Special Viability Candidates

 

Megatherium vs. The Broodmother

Now then, here's where things get interesting. Some creatures on this list, while not generally viable for boss fights, might be able to fight specific bosses with increased efficiency. The Megatherium is one such candidate. It's base damage is 465 with a DPS of 651, while it's slower Alt-Fire has a base damage of 712 but a DPS of only 570. What we're specifically interested in in this case is the Bug Killer Buff trigged by killing the Araneo's spawned by the Broodmother. Previously, (due to what many players believe was an unintended bug) the Megatherium took 75% increased damage when the Bug Killer Buff was active making them completely non-viable. Now, it appears that has been "fixed" and it seems the Megatherium takes 75% reduced damage. This, coupled with a good saddle could make them even more tanky than Rexes when up against the Broodmother despite their lower base health! And that's not all! When Bug Killer is active they deal 250% of their original damage against all targets and 400% damage against targets flagged as Bugs! This boosts their base damage to 1162 and their base DPS to 1628, out-performing both the Rex and the Megalosaurus! I am not certain whether or not the Broodmother herself is flagged as a Bug, but this buff would certainly make super short work of her minions... in addition to adding no small boost to our overall attack power.

In my most recent test on Singleplayer I took three level 296 Megatherium into the Gamma Broodmother fight. Two females, and one male. During that fight, none of them lost more than five thousand health and it appeared that they were actually regenerating at a massively increased rate. It's possible that what others mistook for 75% damage reduction is actually a huge regeneration buff. I'll need to do further testing to be certain.

Overall Impression: 100% Viable (Against the Broodmother, the Megatherium has the potential to outperform Rexes by miles."

 

 

Chalicotherium vs. The Megapithecus

Now this candidate is a pet theory of my own which I have tested once to great effect, but have never seen nor heard of anyone trying it on a larger scale. The Megapithecus Arena is unique in that is is very uneven topographically. By taking the high ground with a squad of imprinted and ridden Chalicotheriums specced for Damage and backed up by a Yutyrannus, it may be possible to use their alternate fire (Rock Throw) to safely deal massive damage to the Megapithecus at range while something else (Probably a Health Specced Rex) tanks it and keeps it's attention.

The main problems with this would be dealing with straggler Gigantopithecus that manage to make it up onto the ridge and the fact that Chalico's can be hard to position/reposition. I am hopeful though!

Overall Impression: Viable (Needs larger scale testing.)


Anyways, I think that pretty much cover things! All the other information is pretty self-explanatory and you can draw your own conclusions about the other creatures' viability very easily. I hope you all enjoyed reading this as much as I enjoyed writing and testing for it! Hopefully boss strategies will continue to see expansion as time goes on.

Again, if you'd like me to check out any other creatures, just say the word and I'll do it.

(Interesting tidbit, while testing for this I found that I can use my Tek Gear in boss arenas... At least in Singleplayer... A recent bug perhaps?)

Notes:

^{1 - Though the Gigantopithecus has high DPS I don't consider it viable due to how easy it is to knock-back and the fact that it randomly alternates between two attack anims that cause it's DPS to fluctuate wildly.
2 - The Alt-Fire Damage for the Wooly Rhino lists how much damage it does after a full charge, and the Alt-Fire DPS is that value tapered into a series of macroed base attacks. So it obviously cannot sustain those numbers.}

 

[ILuvTheAwesomeDevs]

Thanks Sooooooo much for this list! It's gonna be so helpful for the boss fights, especially the megatherium! Thnaks so much c and updoot

[lewisl]

i like the megatherium theory  but are u sure about the theriz ? there was a very good comparative between rex and theriz on the forum and it appeared that theriz could be a little bit better.

[Lancelot]

I've been curious about megatheriums viability in broodmother fight. I just chose the wrong weekend to test my 700 dmg mega

I plan to bring then when the fights are fixed. They easily dish more dmg then rexes during brood fight.

[CyanicEmber]

1 hour ago, lewisl said:

i like the megatherium theory  but are u sure about the theriz ? there was a very good comparative between rex and theriz on the forum and it appeared that theriz could be a little bit better.

Fairly certain, I'll run additional tests to be sure.

[lewisl]

 

it was this post if it can help you

[Thorium]

You got a mistake with veggie cake. It's not 30s, it's actualy 90s. 30s is only for food, like for the snails. For healing the cooldown was nerfed to currently 90s.

Also you dont take the much lower health of the spino into account.

For the megalosaurus: This is very interessting. Only problem with it: It's very hard to find high level ones. Another question: Is the day time on bosses the same as on the island? For example if you teleport to the ape it's allways day. Does the megalosaurus still perform like at night time?

Thery is viable, i actualy did boss runs with my therys. I dont do right now, because right now nothing is viable. ^^

[ciabattaroll]

1 hour ago, Thorium said:

You got a mistake with veggie cake. It's not 30s, it's actualy 90s. 30s is only for food, like for the snails. For healing the cooldown was nerfed to currently 90s.

Also you dont take the much lower health of the spino into account.

For the megalosaurus: This is very interessting. Only problem with it: It's very hard to find high level ones. Another question: Is the day time on bosses the same as on the island? For example if you teleport to the ape it's allways day. Does the megalosaurus still perform like at night time?

Thery is viable, i actualy did boss runs with my therys. I dont do right now, because right now nothing is viable. ^^

Time of day is a universal constant for the server.

[Lockjaw]

I think WC is specifically trying to setup different bosses to be fought by different creatures. Broodmother for the Megatherium, Ape for Rexes, and Dragon for herbivores. Spino and Mosasaurus will probably get their own bosses in a water-themed dlc.

[AngryChris73]

Megalosaurus was gonna be my main mount until i learned it sucked, hope they buff it. Therizino is my mount now.

[Wazzamaniac]

3 hours ago, Thorium said:

You got a mistake with veggie cake. It's not 30s, it's actualy 90s. 30s is only for food, like for the snails. For healing the cooldown was nerfed to currently 90s.

Also you dont take the much lower health of the spino into account.

For the megalosaurus: This is very interessting. Only problem with it: It's very hard to find high level ones. Another question: Is the day time on bosses the same as on the island? For example if you teleport to the ape it's allways day. Does the megalosaurus still perform like at night time?

Thery is viable, i actualy did boss runs with my therys. I dont do right now, because right now nothing is viable. ^^

The arenas are physically within the game map, under the obelisks, so very likely

[AngryChris73]

I agree with Lockjaw, especially maps too, center for bosses except dragon, and island for ascension, with ragnorak being superior

[Harrist14]

3 hours ago, Thorium said:

You got a mistake with veggie cake. It's not 30s, it's actualy 90s. 30s is only for food, like for the snails. For healing the cooldown was nerfed to currently 90s.

Also you dont take the much lower health of the spino into account.

For the megalosaurus: This is very interessting. Only problem with it: It's very hard to find high level ones. Another question: Is the day time on bosses the same as on the island? For example if you teleport to the ape it's allways day. Does the megalosaurus still perform like at night time?

Thery is viable, i actualy did boss runs with my therys. I dont do right now, because right now nothing is viable. ^^

The issue with the megalo is that you'd have to time it so you went in right when it became night, and the night is so short that you'd have a hard time killing any of the bosses before daytime

[Harrist14]

Nice to see that they fixed the megatherium taking tons of damage, now I wish they'd fix dummies to actually show damage and DPS

[Vanessa]

Great thread and thanks for the in-depth analysis! You just gave new meaning to two of my favorite dinos (the megalosaurus and the megatherium), can't wait to try them out on the brood mother!

[SingleSidedPCB]

I think mammoths will do well against the dragon, took 20 fresh tames with 101 armor saddles in against the gamma dragon and it was down to 1/4 health before the last one died.

18 of them bred and imprinted, with snack cakes and yuty+daeodon should be able to handle it

[DarkAriaN]

Thanks so mucho for the info!!!

[Ulta]

9 hours ago, SingleSidedPCB said:

I think mammoths will do well against the dragon, took 20 fresh tames with 101 armor saddles in against the gamma dragon and it was down to 1/4 health before the last one died.

18 of them bred and imprinted, with snack cakes and yuty+daeodon should be able to handle it

Wow...really? On officials (well by that I mean online servers, not SP)?

If this is true, then it'll be sooo much nicer to have a variety of dino's viable for bosses. I'm so glad they nerfed them, and it's even neater if now the bosses actually have specific dino types in mind. Herbies against a dragon...underdogs take the win against the hardest boss!

[ArkCreation]

4 hours ago, Ulta said:

Wow...really? On officials (well by that I mean online servers, not SP)?

If this is true, then it'll be sooo much nicer to have a variety of dino's viable for bosses. I'm so glad they nerfed them, and it's even neater if now the bosses actually have specific dino types in mind. Herbies against a dragon...underdogs take the win against the hardest boss!

yeah for sure. the megatherium has been on my mind since its release and ive been interested in using them for broodmother. I suppose more testing is needed for herbivores since the damage reduction they get from dragon is just its fire breath, not his bite. The breath is a high damaging move sure, but with a macro player I wonder if this can be avoided. I always thought of doing ranged combat on a mount and running around the arena with an AR or Comp bow.

[SingleSidedPCB]

5 hours ago, Ulta said:

Wow...really? On officials (well by that I mean online servers, not SP)?

If this is true, then it'll be sooo much nicer to have a variety of dino's viable for bosses. I'm so glad they nerfed them, and it's even neater if now the bosses actually have specific dino types in mind. Herbies against a dragon...underdogs take the win against the hardest boss!

Unofficial server with stock dino stats. we clone our island server to a test server on the weekends to try out different variations on boss fights and tek cave runs

this weekend we did 4 easy dragon runs with 18 rexes, yuty and daeodon and we won all 4. last 2 with no losses!

also tried easy broodmother with 3 rexes(bred, imprinted, 92 armor saddles) and 2 megatherium (not bred, primitive saddles) all ridden, and the mega's did more damage than the rexes after killing a few of the little spiders. won that fight with no losses as well